LACs with Strong Biology Departments

<p>I'd like to try to figure out a list of LACs that have strong Biology departments. What I don't want is just general claims/"it is good because my kid is studying Bio there" information. I am looking for specifics -- some kind of rankings, info on # of kids who have done well in Bio Olympiad, concrete statistics on percentage of students involved in research, particularly rich course offerings compared to other schools, etc. D will likely have very good test scores (all scores in 700-800 range on SAT, possilby a 34 on ACT) and strong (but not perfect) grades. But she will need a safety school or two as well as matches and reaches, so would consider schools down into the 50s rankings on the US News rankings.</p>

<p>Any suggestions based on this?</p>

<p>Oh most of the top schools will. Williams, Amherst, Vassar, Wesleyan, Haverford, Swat, Carleton. Pomona.</p>

<p>Next tier (of selectivity, but academics just as strong I would think): Grinnell, Kenyon, Oberlin, Whitman.</p>

<p>And Barnard, Smith, Bryn Mawr.</p>

<p>And Bard, Dickinson, oh, so many!</p>

<p>See, that is the issue. They all HAVE biology departments, of course. But who is to say that they are strong? What specific criteria say so (other than strength of students getting admitted)? For example, my take is that Kenyon is very strong in English and related subjects, but I have seen no concrete evidence of strength in Biology. I’d like to go on something more than that little column in the Fiske book about “strong reputation” in a major… but I don’t know where else to get data.</p>

<p>For example, do these schools have more advanced lab equipment or more lab facilities? Better admit rates to biology or med school graduate programs (not that D wants to be a doctor for sure, she may or may not)? Particular exchange programs with other domestic or foreign unversities that are compelling in the area of Biology?</p>

<p>I am data driven… which may explain D’s attraction to science :slight_smile: The data certainly won’t be the only deciding factor in the end, of course! But it would give a rational starting point to the search, and avoid wasting time at campuses that don’t advance her interests. </p>

<p>Who knows, maybe in the next two summers she will develop a specific attachment to some chicken retorvirus or something, and only want attend a college where she can study that… it WOULD narrow the search down. But given that she seems to like all areas of bio pretty equally now, I’d like to work on the broader list in preparation for visits next year.</p>

<p>Here’s one article about Whitman’s:
[National</a> Science Foundation awards $549,446 to Whitman science faculty](<a href=“http://www.whitman.edu/content/news/NSFGrant]National”>http://www.whitman.edu/content/news/NSFGrant)</p>

<p>Any of the seven sisters, if she’s so inclined. Smith, Wellesley, Barnard, Bryn Mawr, Mt. Holyoke, etc. </p>

<p>If you’re going to demand specific data, you’re probably going to have to do the research yourself. Most CC’ers will suggest schools or a few articles, but you seem to be seeking extra specific data/evidence that I think will be beyond most CC suggestions. We’re not bio-experts after all, most are just parents and students with interests in suggesting.</p>

<p>See Post #5 in this thread for one sort of data:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/colby-college/795362-lacs-good-biology-chemistry-subjects.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/colby-college/795362-lacs-good-biology-chemistry-subjects.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>You can do a search for the most recent data on baccalaureate origins of PhDs in biology/life sciences.</p>

<p>Intparent, I was going to start the same thread once junior D’s PSATs came back, but with a broader bio/chem focus. </p>

<p>I assume that the top universities have great programs/facilities (MIT/Stanford/Ivies) but it’s the top LAC’s and Public Us that I wonder about. So what to use for evaluation criteria?</p>

<p>WSJ posted a number of years ago a ranking of top feeder schools for professional programs that’s interesting to look at<br>
<a href=“WSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insights”>WSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insights;
(but it is not major specific and some here on CC have argued it is flawed). Still some Lacs stood out on the list and may be worth a look.</p>

<p>I would like to see
-% students involved in undergrad science research (with faculty --not TAs)
-Publication track-records
-An evaluation of the facililities (I teach at a large state U and we have great Geolabs but terrible Biolabs --each campus in our State has different strengths in the sciences)<br>
-% accepted into Bio/chem PhD programs/med school. </p>

<p>Perhaps we need to do the research ourselves if the data has not been collected (or just recently)!</p>

<p>A possible extreme safety for your student–with excellent merit $$$–would be Washington and Jefferson in Pa…they have an incredible medical school placement rate.</p>

<p>One thing you may want to consider (or maybe not, who knows?) : it’s not always just the on-campus research opps but the near off-campus ones, too. I know the close connections Rhodes has with St. Jude’s Children’s Research Hospital (St. Jude’s researchers team-teach at Rhodes, students intern there during the year and summers) and the UT-Med School meant a lot to my D in choosing Rhodes for UG. It may have meant as much as the excellent UG Bio and Chem programs at Rhodes themselves. It ultimately led her to reject her beloved rural LAC’s in favor of the opps found in Memphis. </p>

<p>She spent a whole lot of time looking at the opportunities for UG research at all her schools, up to and including the specific projects of the prof’s and students.</p>

<p>As far as a viable/meaningful/quantitative ranking of undergraduate Bio and Chem programs…good luck with that. :wink: The best you will find are some broad strokes and some indicators.</p>

<p>Intparent, I was going to start the same thread once junior D’s PSATs came back, but with a broader bio/chem focus. </p>

<p>I assume that the top universities have great programs/facilities (MIT/Stanford/Ivies) but it’s the top LAC’s and Public Us that I wonder about. So what to use for evaluation criteria?</p>

<p>WSJ posted a number of years ago a ranking of top feeder schools for professional programs that’s interesting to look at<br>
<a href=“WSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insights”>WSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insights;
(but it is not major specific and some here on CC have argued it is flawed). Still some Lacs stood out on the list and may be worth a look.</p>

<p>I would like to see
-% student involved in undergrad science research (with faculty --not TAs)
-Publication track-records
-An evaluation of the facililities (I teach at a large state U and we have great Geolabs but terrible Biolabs --each campus in our State has different strengths in the sciences)<br>
-% accepted into Bio/chem PhD programs/med school. </p>

<p>Perhaps we need to do the research ourselves if the data has not been collected (or just recently)!</p>

<p>There are definitely some good tips here, thanks! No doubt, pathways, we will be doing a lot of our own research. Smithieandproud, my experience on CC has been that sometimes you strike gold when you ask this kind of question, because sometimes someone else has already done the research :slight_smile: CC parents are a very resourceful crowd! </p>

<p>The Whitman link in turn led to a link on what schools are producing the most science & engineering PhDs. Some surprises on that list. For example, I would have expected Johns Hopkins to fall higher on that list (I have heard that they have the most funding for undergrad science research of any school in the country). But they are down at #20, nestled in next to Kalamazoo College. Possibly because they all go on to med school.</p>

<p>[Top</a> 50 Schools That Produce Science PhDs - CBS MoneyWatch.com](<a href=“MoneyWatch: Financial news, world finance and market news, your money, product recalls updated daily - CBS News”>MoneyWatch: Financial news, world finance and market news, your money, product recalls updated daily - CBS News) </p>

<p>And the NSF link to Whitman made me think that maybe I can glean some info by looking at NSF grants in recent years, too. So I will follow up on that. It also makes me realize that the schools themselves will be bragging about what they’ve got. So by reading the websites carefully for a lot of schools and universities, it should help me figure out some info about them AND figure out what to ask their competitors.</p>

<p>This is also helping me formulate questions for D’s campus visit. For example, does the university have any off local campus relationships that provide research opportunities for students? And now I am curious about their placement in science-related internships, too.</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/swarthmore/60990-phd-production-biology-health-sciences.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/swarthmore/60990-phd-production-biology-health-sciences.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I was going to post the NSF link, but you beat me to it! Leading the way among LACs in that list is Reed, Swarthmore, Carleton, and Grinnell.</p>

<p>You asked specifically about science facilities: I’ve visited close to 20 top LACs, and can say that Grinnell’s new science facilities are second to none. Middlebury often gets overlooked for science, but also has great new facilites. As does Beloit College (more of a safety, but great chances for merit aid).</p>

<p>Williams has amazing summer research facilities and fully funded summer research for undergrads. I imagine they’re 16 on the PhD list and not higher because Williams attracts kids who would often elect Med School over Research, not because of ability but because of inclination to be more in the world.</p>

<p>The women’s colleges really support women in the sciences.</p>

<p>Being data driven is just half the issue. The best school is the one that will support a particular child to flourish and excel. There are a lot of issues involved in this decision.</p>

<p>I am going to toss my hat in the ring for Middlebury. Their facilities are top-notch and that they sometimes get overlooked in favor of environmental science and languages makes it so that the program is not over-crowded. Son has yet to experience anything but a fantastic professor.</p>

<p>But just a word as to your own research or asking this question in general: Wouldn’t you need to know in what direction your daughter would wish to go? I mean, what good is knowing the number of PHd’s if she really just wants to go to Med School? And if a school says some ridiculously high percentages of graduates go on to Med School, do you know how often they counsel students out of going in that direction? Or is it the number of students with supported applications getting in?</p>

<p>While I am always cautious of students choosing a school based primarily on what they THINK they want to do at 18 (vs having a far better idea at 20/21), I do think it would be worth a conversation (perhaps email exchange) with professors at the narrowed down list of schools.</p>

<p>Intparent, when my S was looking at colleges, we sought the same type of info you’re asking for. I’ll try to help you through the benefit of hindsight as he graduated in a science major and is now a fourth-year grad student in a doctoral science/engineering program. These are some of the factors we considered important:</p>

<p>You can start with the USNWR rankings to get a list of schools to begin your search. That’s pretty much all we used it for. Then go to the individual colleges’ website. Look at the data set; that will give you admission stats. Look for 4-, 5-, and 6-year graduation rates, faculty:student ratios. Look at the dept.'s website. That should tell you what research the students are doing, where they’re doing it, and who’s funding it. There should be information about their graduates.</p>

<p>If helps enormously if you begin with some goals in mind. For example, my S knew his intended major and knew he wanted eventually to go to grad school. So we looked for a college that would help him achieve that goal, as exemplified by grad school stats for graduating seniors, competitive graduate fellowships awarded, quality of faculty research, and some other factors.</p>

<p>How can you determine any of these things objectively?</p>

<p>If grad school is the goal, these are the things I believe made a difference in helping him achieve that goal:</p>

<p>–Faculty funding. Endowment matters, but do the faculty receive outside funding in the form of grants for specific research?</p>

<p>–Opportunities for research. Does the college sponsor NSF or other summer research, ongoing scientific research during the school year, project- or course-based industry research? </p>

<p>–Publication in peer-reviewed journals. What is the faculty publishing? What are the students publishing?</p>

<p>–Formal peer support. Do strong students get a chance to teach or tutor their peers by subject area, under faculty supervision?</p>

<p>–UG awards. These include such things as Goldwater scholarships, foundation fellowships, conference awards like Sigma Xi, etc.</p>

<p>–Graduate student awards. How many NDSEG, NSF, Marshall, Gates, Rhodes, etc., are awarded to graduating seniors?</p>

<p>–Graduate school admissions. Which grad schools will the seniors attend? What percentage of the class and/or major will attend grad school?</p>

<p>–Industry recruiting. Which companies recruit on campus?</p>

<p>You mentioned the Olympiad specifically. I don’t know of a college that gives out that info on their students, but you might have some luck on the websites for the individual Olympiads. My S’s college didn’t. He had a medal winner in his major in his class but only found out incidentally after he matriculated. Very easy to find out the graduate awards, though. The college websites like to advertise that info as it reflects well on the school, and the award sites like NSF can be sorted by school for winners and honorable mentions.</p>

<p>Even after all that, visits are probably in order. What good is a college that looks great on paper if the prospective student would be miserable there for four years?</p>

<p>Good luck on the search.</p>

<p>Interesting comment about med school grads being “more in the world”, mythmom. Agreed for the Paul Farmers or those who go to work in areas like the Indian Health Service or inner city clinics… not so sure that going on to be a specialist in a typical practice (as the majority of med students do) is being “more in the world” than someone who performs biology research that might lead to the treatments they use. </p>

<p>I am well aware that there are many factors that go into this decision besides the “data” – this is my 2nd kid heading to college. We worked very hard researching and visiting for #1 (we visited 20 campuses for her, so are well aware that “fit” has some subjective elements). We ended up with an absolutely perfect fit and good merit aid for her. But it was not luck, it was elbow grease in the search process that got her there. Too bad she was not a bio kid, too, would have saved us time this round. :)</p>

<p>Our campus visit process for D1 was pretty thorough, and will be for D2 as well. She will try to attend a class in her area of interest, and likely will meet with a prof to ask questions about the department as well. If she can’t meet with someone, she will probably have an email exchange.</p>

<p>Regarding direction, her passion is pretty strong in this area. She is quite good at a number of things, but like her sister (who set an academic course at about this age and has not wavered), I suspect that “this is the one”. I think she is very interested in research. If she goes to med school, it will likely be because she sees it as a way to extend her ability to research, not because of a passion for patient care.</p>

<p>Biology is a pretty broad field- depends on how detailed you want to get in undergrad-what emphasis you think you would like to pursue in further education.</p>

<p>[HHMI</a> Beyond Bio 101: The Transformation of Undergraduate Biology Education](<a href=“http://www.hhmi.org/BeyondBio101/]HHMI”>Beyond Bio 101 | HHMI)</p>

<p>[UNDERGRADUATE</a> ORIGINS OF PH.D.S</p>

<p>PERCENTAGE RANKING OF PH.D.S, BY ACADEMIC FIELD, CONFERRED UPON GRADUATES OF LISTED INSTITUTIONS](<a href=“http://web.reed.edu/ir/phd.html]UNDERGRADUATE”>Doctoral Degree Productivity - Institutional Research - Reed College)</p>

<p>inparent: I didn’t mean it as a normative comment – just for want of better terminology. I am the grad school type – have PhD. S will probably go my route. D is in law school, and H is an entrepreneur. Just different personalities.</p>