<p>The Patriot League schools will decide later this month on whether or not to begin offering athletic scholarships for football. President Daniel Weiss has indicated that Lafayette will vote not to begin offering football scholarships. The other Patriot League schools playing football are Bucknell, Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross, Georgetown and Fordham. Fordham began offering scholarships this year and as a result is no longer eligible to win the league championship. </p>
<p>I predict this will go the way basketball did a few years ago… once one school breaks ranks more will give in, and eventually all will give in and start offering scholarships - including Lafayette, because they’ll have to in order to remain competitive. </p>
<p>The Patriot league, being D1 but very academic, ends up competing with the Ivies for athletes. Both leagues are supposed to be need-based only for aid. But picture a kid who is being recruited and gets accepted to both Lafayette and Princeton. Where do you think he’s going to go? The coaches refer to this as “reputational advantage.” The only way the Patriot league can compete for these athletes is to offer scholarships.</p>
<p>It should be noted that these scholarships are NOT (and won’t be) full rides. They are very limited in number, and students have to be within an academic range that they probably would have been admitted even without the sport. The Patriots League collects the academic stats of all recruited scholarship athletes and the Presidents get to look at each other’s data. If something looks way out of line, they can call each other on it.</p>
<p>I am surprised that Lafayette will not step up with football scholarships given that they have spent millions on refurbishing the football stadium and built that multi-million dollar football training center/office complex on its grounds only a couple of years ago. The trend toward emphasizing football was clear and so this is a disappointing thought.</p>
<p>Also, what will big your rival Lehigh do? What about Colgate? And then there’s HC that had scholarships in the 80s and became very powerful. If those schools vote yes then are you at an even bigger disadvantage and will they (plus Fordham) be eligible for the PL title with a 6-0 season?</p>
<p>After reading the article hudsonvalley cited from the Lafayette (student newspaper), I am concerned. If the league votes to go with scholarships, Lafayette will have to either go along or leave the Patriot league, because they won’t be able to remain competitive within the League, and I believe that would be a huge mistake. Like it or not, the college gets a lot of its public identity from its association with the Patriot League and from playing a large percentage of its games against the Ivies. The Patriot League has a strong association with the Ivies. Playing the Ivies in athletics puts Lafayette into people’s (read: prospective students and parents) minds as a strong academic school. I honestly feel that if Lafayette ends up leaving the Patriot league, they’ll have to drop to Division 3. As the smallest D1 school in the nation, it’s already difficult to find schools to play against competitively. If we’re not a Patriot League school, who are we? A tiny D1 school who competes with… East Stroudsburg? </p>
<p>Like it or not, much of a school’s public reputation comes from athletics. Not so much whether you win or lose, but who you play against. In the minds of much of the public, who you play sports against is your peer group. If the Patriot League votes in football scholarships, Lafayette needs to either get on board, or play against other “academic” schools our size - virtually all of whom are D3. (NESCAC, anyone? Hello Hamilton, Connecticut College, Trinity, etc).</p>
<p>edit: HV - just read your second article. It frames the issue well. If Weiss wants to vote no and the league agrees with him, then that’s fine. But if the League votes yes, or some members simply defy the vote and offer scholarships, then I think Laf will have to leave the League and in that case I think D3 is the only realistic choice. And as markham pointed out, a lot of alum donated a lot of money to renovate a very nice football stadium and build a Varsity building for the team… I don’t think they’d react well to moving to D3.</p>
<p>Lafalum – I don’t see dropping to Division III as the only option. Lafayette is certainly competitive with the other Patriot League athletic teams. The issue is primarily a football matter. Lafayette football could, theoretically, play as an independent or align themselves with Georgetown, Bucknell and ? in a non-scholarship league. Or they could remain in the Patriot League and become a perennial doormat, but with their acdemic integrity intact. </p>
<p>I think it is worth noting also that while FCS schools are permitted up to 63 football scholarships there is nothing that says you HAVE to offer 63 scholarships. The article mentions that Fordham had only two scholarship players this year (although one of those players had a significant impact). We don’t know yet what the limit might be on football scholarships IF the majority of PL schools vote “yes.”</p>
<p>While I admire Dan Weiss’ stance I must confess I am also concerned about the ramifications on Lafayette Athletics’ association with the PL and Ivy League schools if this issue forces a break-up of the League.</p>
I don’t think this is allowed by current NCAA rules. All sports must compete in the same division. There are a few exceptions (e.g. Johns Hopkins is D3, but D1 for lacrosse) that have been ‘grandfathered’ from years ago.</p>
<p>Well in that case, it’s either stay in the Patriot League or send football out on its own as the smallest D1 college in the country - and one of the only ones without football scholarships. I guess we need to hope the League votes “no” and the rest of the schools abide by that rule. Or if the vote is Yes, that Weiss changes his mind or the Trustees overrule him.</p>
<p>I highly doubt anyone is talking about anything like 63 football scholarships in the Patriot league. I would expect the number to be a half-dozen or less per year.</p>
<p>Lafayette is not “the smallest D1 college in the country”, nor is it even the smallest football playing D1 college. I can think of several that are smaller: Wofford (currently in the FCS playoffs), Davidson, Presbyterian, Wagner. There are probably others. </p>
<p>Also I believe that if the majority vote yes, Lafayette will go along. I can’t see them repeating the basketball scenario, where they were the last ones to implement them and suffered competitively because of it. </p>
<p>My personal view is that the PL schools have to protect and enhance the football programs with scholarships. Here is why:</p>
<p>In addition to what’s been mentioned above, I would add that the PL league in football is small and simply cannot remain viable with the departure of Fordham. They would take to the road if their ambitions are thwarted. I do not know of another candidate ready to take their place.</p>
<p>Next, scholarships enable the PL schools to attract an entire set of applicants who are “middle class” and so either cannot get financial aid under current programs or who can pay for it anyway but would like some monetary incentive. (This plays well at our non-Ivy competitors, doesn’t it?) </p>
<p>Also, improving the programs won’t necessarily cost anything although I recognize that this question has to be considered by each school independently. If more money needs to be added to other sports such as women’s sports to ensure balance, it’s high time to do it. This has to be analyzed and hopefully the phase in of scholarships will be manageable everywhere. </p>
<p>And lastly, would it not be great to play up a level and face Army and Navy on occasion? They too have a vote on this question (as does American) and I hope that they support scholarships for the league in football even though it won’t impact them directly.</p>
<p>I am not a Lafayette alumnus but I would like to think that if I were a big supporter of football in the past I would be included in assessing how this can work and then help with the fundraising side of things to ensure that it does!</p>
<p>I stand corrected. After looking it up, Lafayette is the 7th smallest of 124 FCS division colleges (Wikepedia). That puts us in the smallest 6% of FCS schools in the country. (We are the smallest college in the Patriot League).</p>
<p>
We used to play Army. There’s a reason we don’t play them any more. I attended a game at West Point in the early 1980’s as a member of the Lafayette band. We got crushed - and this was a time when we had a winning team and a QB (Frank Novak) who had made the cover of SI.</p>
<p>This is not the first time the issue of football’s status has come up. Maybe 10 years ago, football was not competitive and there was talk of dropping the sport or moving the college to D3. After much heated debate, D1 and football both remained, and enough money was donated to renovate the stadium AND build the Bourger Varsity building, which opened in 2007. I believe football is the ONLY sport at Lafayette that has its OWN building. My H (also a Lafayette alum) and I refer to it as the “you-can’t-cut-our-program” building.</p>
<p>After initially being very pleased with the selection of Dr Weiss to be Lafayette’s president, I’m not sure I’m such a big fan any more. He seems to want to re-make Lafayette into a true small LAC in the mold of Amherst, Williams or Colby. These are great colleges, but that is not who Lafayette IS. Lafayette has a unique identity, and needs to acknowledge and celebrate that. There are very few other schools its size with strong liberal arts, a strong and well-recognized engineering program, and D1 athletics. I’m all for Dr Weiss’s program to strengthen the fine arts, but I don’t feel the need to jettison other aspects of the college to do so. Also, while I admire his stance against the USNWR Rating system, it certainly hasn’t done the College any favors.</p>
<p>(This is off-track, but Dr Weiss also seems determined to go down the path of eliminating the Greek organizations. I would NEVER want to see a return to the old days where the frats pretty much ran the campus, but I believe that given Lafayette’s history, Greek life should remain as a viable alternative for those who choose it. The administrations attitude toward Greeks seems to me to be unrelentingly negative, but that is a discussion for another day). </p>
<p>I’ll be watching to see how all this turns out. I think it’s important to Lafayette’s image to remain a member of the Patriot League, and I think the school has too much self-respect to remain a member if we’re going to be a perennial doormat.</p>
<p>Lafalum84,
I agree with most of what you wrote. However, I believe that Army and Navy no longer play Patriot League teams in football because a win does not currently count toward bowl eligibility. If a team has 57 scholarship (or equivalencies in terms of need-based aid), it is a ‘counter’ school. Until recently, my understanding is that Lafayette typically would have around 55 equivalencies. Over the last few years that number has dropped to around 44. I suspect that both Army and Navy will vote ‘yes’ on the upcoming scholarship vote, so that they can again play their Patriot league brethren and have it count for bowl eligibility. I wouldn’t be surprised if American also votes yes, even though it does not field a football team, if it views that a ‘yes’ vote would enhance the long-term viability of the league.</p>
<p>While it is true that Lafayette never beat Army or Navy in the '80s and early '90s, and there were some blowout losses (e.g. Navy 56 - LC 14 in '85, Army 56 - LC 0 in '90, Army 41 - LC 21 in '96, Army 41 - LC 14 in '97), many of the games were competitive. (Army 26 - LC 20 in '82, Army 56 - LC 48 in '86, Army 49 - LC 37 in '87, Army 24, LC 17 in '88, Army 34 - LC 20 in '89, Army 38 - LC 36 in '92, Navy 7 - LC 0 in '94). BTW, it was Frank Bauer ('89) who made the cover of Sports Illustrated, not Frank Novak ('84), although both Franks were good QBs.</p>
<p>I suppose that the immediate consequences of the vote will be known tomorrow or Wednesday and I am guessing that Lafayette, Georgetown and Holy Cross will vote NO, the 2 service academies and American will abstain (which will count as NO) while Colgate, Bucknell, Lehigh and Fordham will vote YES. The NOs will have it.</p>
<p>The longer term consequence will be hard to assess since we will lose Fordham from league play (and have to fill that slot if they drop PL schools when they join another league) and lots of alumni at NO and especially YES schools will be annoyed that their programs are not getting the boost from scholarships that arguably less visible PL sports get. </p>
<p>A NO decision that would prevent PL schools offering scholarships, in my view, would be a shame. Let’s face facts: PL schools now miss out on the entire “middle class” demographic due to the limits of current financial aid practices. The Ivies have the reputational advantage in attracting players and in scheduling while scholarship schools make up for any lack of academic reputation with what would be perceived to be a more adventurous football program. </p>
<p>As a father of a current sophomore at LC, and an alum of Hofstra, I hope that the future of the football team is handled with more transparency (and with a more positive outcome) than it was at my alma mater.</p>
<p>I think that Dr. Weiss will lose this one. If most of the PL schools vote yes, then Lafayette will have no choice but to offer scholarships for football in order to remain competitive. If the majority of PL schools vote no, then certain schools will begin to offer scholarships on their own. Fordham has already done this, and HC was the first PL school to offer athletic scholarships their basketball program. What is quite clear is that is that each school in the PL gives lip service to the need for the league, but when push comes to shove, they look out for their own self interests.</p>
<p>This is an issue of identity, and frankly Dr. Weiss has sent mixed signals as to what LC is, and how the College is to be viewed by both its competitors and the public at large. Clearly, he envisions the College as being like a Williams or Amherst playing on a D3 level. But this ignores the rich athletic history of the school. Support of the art program is admirable, but adds little to name recognition. Like it or not, football becomes a driving force in how a school views itself, and how the public views the school. After all, no one had ever heard of Notre Dame until its football program came into prominence.</p>
<p>At the end of the day the issue is one of priorities- whether they be those of the Lafayette College president, wealthy and generous alumni, the league as a group, or whatever.</p>
<p>Today there is an article about this in the NY Times and while I have only skimmed it I can easily imagine Colgate and Lehigh lining up with Fordham favor football scholarships with HC on the sidelines due to what the article says has to do with their financial constraints. Sadly, the article says that Bucknell may be joining Lafayette and Georgetown as ready Nos.</p>
<p>So as finances are at the root of at least some of the confusion it’s up to the football supporters to make a loud case for scholarships in order to advance the league (so it can schedule more scholarship teams) and remain interesting to the Ivies (which have big financial and other recruiting advantages.) The more ambitious football programs/coaches/administrator and player contingent deserve a lot of respect for their ambition. No one said anything about altering academic standards; we are only talking about redistributing aid (and that would include women’s or other sports if that is a problem at certain league schools.)</p>
<p>It would be a shame to split the league on the basis of football scholarship haves and have-nots. Who can say what the ramifications would be?!</p>
<p>I don’t think the league would survive half-and-half. Hopefully, whatever is voted, the whole league decides to go along. I can live with either choice, but I think leaving the League would be a definite negative for Lafayette’s image/reputation, and staying in the League as the only team without scholarships (or in a minority being scholarship-free) is clearly not a tenable solution.</p>
<p>
I initially read this as Dr Weiss indicating we’d leave the League if scholarships are voted in, but now that I look at it again I think he’s leaving the door open for Laf to either change its mind and give scholarships OR leave the league.</p>