<p>In addition to the education, you are also purchasing the degree and the name on your resume. Trust me, Williams is significantly more impressive. And this is coming from someone who really is a fan of Middlebury.</p>
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<p>Actually, to the extent a trend can be measured reliably at all, it seems to be moving in the opposite direction. In the USNWR LAC rankings between 1988 and 2006, Middlebury moved up 9 places. Williams has stayed consistently at or near the top (when youâre #1, you have nowhere to go but down). This year Williams is still #1 and Middlebury #5 (not somewhere in the teens as it was years ago).</p>
<p>stateuniversity.com also shows a narrowing margin. These rankings are based primarily on 4 objective measurements: the incoming studentsâ average ACT/SAT scores, student retention, average faculty salaries, and student:faculty ratio. According to this ranking, from 2009 to 2010 (the most current data), Williams slipped slightly from 9th to 11th among all colleges and universities. Middleburyâs position rose from 18th to 13th.</p>
<p>Thatâs not to say Williams is declining, but Middlebury certainly seems to be improving. In recent years the school embarked on an ambitious building program, adding a spectacular new library, science center, environmental studies building, student center, and state-of-the-art biomass heating plant. Middlebury has become extremely selective. It seems to be broadening out from its traditional strength as one of the countryâs premier schools to study foreign languages. It has solid programs in English / creative writing and international relations. It is one of the countryâs best LACs for environmental science and architectural studies. This year, it became the countryâs first un-partnered LAC to field a team in the DOEâs Solar Decathlon (a biennial collegiate competition to design the most energy-efficient house and erect it, within a week or so, for display in Washington, DC.)</p>
<p>As for law preparation, listen to the law professor above. What counts in law school admissions is your GPA and LSAT scores, not hair-splitting differences in perceived prestige. If Williams is placing more students in top law schools, itâs because they have more top test-takers applying to those schools. Middlebury may be sending more of its best students into other fields.</p>
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<p>Excuses, excuses and more excuses</p>
<p>face it</p>
<p>Williams is simply much much better than Middlebury</p>
<p>no comparison here</p>
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<p>Welcome to CC. Youâre new here, so Iâll cut you some slack. Perhaps if you spend a little more time listening to the people who have actually gone to college and exist in the real world, you might learn something. Twenty years ago, I might have agreed with you. Not today.</p>
<p>
Hereâs the five most recent years of data available for Harvard and Yale Law; the OP expressed an interest in Chicago and Yale Law.</p>
<p>Harvard 2003
Amherst 17
Williams 15
Middlebury 4</p>
<p>Harvard 2004
Williams 15
Amherst 13
Middlebury 5</p>
<p>Harvard 2005
Williams 16
Amherst 15
Middlebury 7</p>
<p>Harvard 2006
Amherst 16
Williams 13
Middlebury 8</p>
<p>Harvard 2007
Amherst 19
Williams 17
Middlebury 6</p>
<p>Yale 2007
Williams 12
Amherst 9
Middlebury 2</p>
<p>Yale 2008
Williams 12
Amherst 9
Middlebury 3</p>
<p>Yale 2009
Williams 11
Amherst 9
Middlebury 4</p>
<p>Yale 2010
Williams 9
Amherst 6
Middlebury 4</p>
<p>Yale 2011
Amherst 7
Williams 4
Middlebury 3</p>
<p>
Midd is ~40% larger than Amherst and ~20-25% larger than Williams. Any difference in career aspirations should be more than offset by overall size. </p>
<p>As for the âtop test-takersââŠwell, itâs difficult to know where they end up. Thereâs worse places to be than Harvard or Yale Law. (Humanities PhD programs come to mind.)</p>
<p>I think the difference can be accounted for by simply noting that Williams students have higher LSAT scores on average than Middlebury students. In a numbers game like law admissions, thatâs a big advantage. Of course, this says more about undergraduate admissions standards than any magic the college works.</p>
<p>^^^^^warble, thanks for the Yale and Harvard Law school data for Williams and Middlebury</p>
<p>case closed</p>
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<p>In 2009-10, 89 Middlebury students applied to law school.
In the same year, 88 Williams students applied to law school.
In 2 of the last 5 years, more Williams students than Middlebury students applied to law school. Iâm talking absolute numbers, not percentages.
(source: <a href=âhttp://www.lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/PDFs/top-240-feeder-schools.pdf[/url]â>http://www.lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/PDFs/top-240-feeder-schools.pdf</a>)</p>
<p>Williams students do have among the highest average LSAT scores. Thatâs not surprising, given their high average entering SATs and apparently very high interest in attending law school. But (as I think warblersrule was suggesting), this does not necessarily have anything to do with the schoolâs academic quality per se. Itâs a good school that attracts good test-takers. Law schools reward that. Is there any evidence that they consistently prefer Williams over Middlebury students with the same (or higher) grades and scores? I donât think so.</p>
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<p>how a CC poster describes the better academic college</p>
<p>then by definition according to this CC poster, the reason that Harvard, Yale and Princeton are much better schools than Middlebury is only because they attract better test takersâŠnot because the students that enter HYP are much brighter and because HYP offer a better education than MiddleburyâŠ</p>
<p>oh, ok</p>
<p>Thanks for the absolute numbers. This demonstrates that Middâs representation at Y + H law is on an upward trajectory.</p>
<p>Hmmm . . . Williamsâ numbers at Yale Law seem to be slipping: 12 ('07), 12 ('08), 11 ('09), 9 ('10), 4 ('11).</p>
<p>time to look at the financial resources for both Williams and Middlebury</p>
<p>how does the endowment per student compare?</p>
<p><a href=âhttp://www.nacubo.org/Documents/research/2010NCSE_Public_Tables_Endowment_Market_Values_Final.pdf[/url]â>Page not Found;
<p>Endowment
$1.527 billion - Williams
$0.783 billion - Middlebury</p>
<p>Endowment per Student
$0.752 million - Williams
$0.309 million - Middlebury</p>
<p>Youâre right. Kids at Middlebury are huddling in shacks with leaking thatched roofs eating gruel (with mealworms for extra protein when theyâre lucky) and reading their assignments by candlelight because the college canât afford electricity. </p>
<p>Out of curiosity, have you ever been to either school?</p>
<p>These are both very wealthy schools. Still, the fact that Williams is even wealthier, with twice the endowment per student, is more impressive than the fact that it had 1 more student at Yale law school last year, or 4 more the year before that. The law school enrollments are rather meaningless without knowing the number of applicants. The endowment numbers stand more easily on their own merits.</p>
<p>The average full time faculty salary at Williams is about $104K. At Middlebury, itâs about $87K. Williams has more FT faculty (278 v. 260) for fewer students. (source: stateuniversity.com) Williamsâ wealth makes its tutorial system possible. This is one distinctive feature of the school that, in my opinion, really does set it apart from other LACs. </p>
<p>Williams also awards more financial aid (~ $42M/yr v. $39M/yr total last year) to a smaller student body. Williams awarded need-based scholarship or grant aid to 288 students last year, Middlebury to 249. The average Williams package was ~$42K; the average Middlebury package was ~$36K. Average aid to internationals, very high at both schools, is a little higher at Williams: $48K v. $45K. (source: 2010-11 Common Data Set files). The average Williams debt at graduation was ~$8K. At Middlebury, it was $21K. Pre-aid total costs are nearly identical at the two. (source: Kiplingers).</p>
<p>All these numbers become more or less meaningful only in the context of your personal situation. If youâre a full-pay student who doesnât need loans, the aid numbers may not matter to you. You may happen to find a class with 11 students at Middlebury more stimulating than a class with 5 students at Williams. You may not like the idea of 2-student tutorials. Middleburyâs strengths in languages or environmental science may be more appealing to you than Williamsâ strength in art history or math. Williams deserves a slightly higher rank ⊠but itâs not a no-brainer choice for all students.</p>
<p>USNWR rankings for Liberal Arts Colleges</p>
<p>Faculty Resources Rank
3 - Williams
23 - Middlebury</p>
<p>Financial Resources Rank
6 - Williams
5 - Middlebury</p>
<p>Undergraduate representation at V5 Law Firms:</p>
<p>WLRK:
Amherst 2 Partners
Middlebury 1 Partner, 1 Associate
Williams 3 Associates</p>
<p>Cravath:
Amherst 2 Partners, 1 Senior Counsel, 2 Partners Emeriti
Williams 1 Partner Emeritus
Middlebury 0</p>
<p>SullCrom:
Amherst 1 Partner, 7 Associates
Williams 1 Partner, 3 Associates, 1 Senior Counsel
Middlebury 2 Associates</p>
<p>Skadden:
Williams 5 Partners, 2 Of Counsel
Amherst 3 Partners, 7 Associates, 2 Of Counsel
Middlebury 2 Partners, 5 Associates</p>
<p>Davis Polk:
Amherst: 1 Partner, 6 Associates
Williams: 3 Associates, 1 Of Counsel
Middlebury: 2 Associates, 2 Clerks</p>
<p>Donât mind me, just enjoying my last few hours before the LSATâŠ</p>
<p>Seriously people youâre arguing tiny degrees of separation. Which is better Harvard or Stanford? Ferrari or Lamborghini? Picasso or Van Gogh? For some things each is better than the other. Go where you feel most comfortable. Theyâre both great. Regardless of JamieBrownâs, claims, there is no clear cut answer.</p>
<p>yet another Middlebury supporter chimes in</p>
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<p>Good point Jamie, there do seem to be a lot of Middlebury supporters out there.</p>
<p>urban, only the supporters of the lower quality institution will say that it is similar to the higher quality institution that it is being compared to - no suprise here</p>