<p>Self-explainatory question, why did you choose law even though Business and Medical degrees may be cheaper to obtain with greater median salaries?</p>
<p>I'm not sure, frankly, what planet you are from, but medical degrees are much more expensive than law degrees. There is four years, not three years, of tuition which is as high or higher than law school tuition. The interest on the loans gets compounded for roughly a decade while students to residencies, internships, and begin to specialize. Consider that, over 14 years, 5% interest on a loan (which is a very realistic estimate of one's loan rates), the value of the loan will double. </p>
<p>At least with law, you start paying off your debt immediately.</p>
<p>I see, how about this? It can't be right, tuition for TXSW is under $3000?</p>
<p>Fine, then, let's clarify here. Becoming a doctor typically takes four years of actual medical school, during which you pay for tuition, room, board, books, etc. Then you are an intern for a year making a fairly low salary and working crazy hours. Then your residency begins. Residents work very long hours for poor pay, and residency typically lasts between three to five years (though I'm not entirely sure of the range of years -- most people I know were residents for four years). Then, if you want to specialize, you have another year or two or three of fellowships, again, during which you are poorly paid. Once you are finally done with all of this work, you can begin to practice medicine and start to pay back all of your loans. Anecdotally, every person I know who went through this process (and I have a lot of friends and acquaintances who are doctors) was at least 30 years old before they begain to make a decent living and had a much greater amount of student loans than any law student I've ever known. </p>
<p>To get your MBA is in some ways more expensive than getting a law degree. First, the educational costs are similar. Just as one example, two years at Wharton getting your MBA will cost you approximately $140,000 (tuition, living expenses, books, etc. estimated costs just under $70,000/year), while three years getting your J.D. at Penn Law (will cost you approximately $162,000 (tuition, living expenses, books, etc. estimated costs just under $54,000/year). Second, there are opportunity costs. You could theoretically go to law school right out of college when your opportunity costs are quite low (both because you haven't had a job yet and because your earnings right out of college are likely (or hopefully) lower than they would be five years later) and begin paying off those law school loans when you are 25 years old. On the other hand, a student typically begins an MBA program after working for 4 or 5 or more years, when leaving the working world means that you are giving up your salary PLUS paying tuition, etc. You also won't begin paying off your MBA loans until you are in your late 20's or early 30's.</p>
<p>Finally, and most importantly, going to law school is the only way to become a lawyer.</p>
<p>Under certain circumstances, couldn't one's employer finance one's education for the MBA? I have heard of this scenario before, but it's probably rare.</p>
<p>Yes, but there are other factors.</p>
<p>Becoming a doctor is completey safe and even crappy doctors make 6 figures.</p>
<p>Only lawyers that graduate in the top 10% of their class at top tier law schools make money, and even at Harvard Law, you typically have to be in the top half to be sure of a well-paying job.</p>
<p>MBA's top out much higher than lawyers and doctors are for the most part guaranteed a job.</p>
<p>To each his own.</p>
<p>I'd be shocked if your average top-14 lawyer made less than your average crappy doctor.</p>
<p>Doctors make the least amount of money in economic terms versus people who get MBA's or a top JD.</p>
<p>You defer basically 6 years of career development at least to become a doctor. If you're really talented, the OC of becoming a doctor is quite high.</p>
<p>If you're just an average joe who works hard, becoming a doctor is probably the safest, and only ticket into the big leagues.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That is a pretty categorical statement. Can you provide any factual support for this sweeping generalization?</p>
<p>"Becoming a doctor is completey safe and even crappy doctors make 6 figures."</p>
<p>That's just not true. Please keep in mind that the skyrocketing cost of medical malpractice insurance is causing many excellent doctors to stop practicing medicine altogether, as documented in many disturbing news articles over the past year or two (and evidenced anecdotally by me when two of my long time doctors simply stopped practicing medicine rather than suffer through the effects of through the roof malpractice insurance rates). That is a sad state of affairs, both for us as a society and for the individual doctors who have spent ten years of their lives becoming educated just to have their doctor jobs. Doctors are basically being asked to either run an unprofitable business or to shoulder the burden of malpractice lawsuits (whether or not the suits have any merit) through personal liability and recourse to their homes, their cars and their savings. I wouldn't stay in medicine either.</p>
<p>"Only lawyers that graduate in the top 10% of their class at top tier law schools make money, and even at Harvard Law, you typically have to be in the top half to be sure of a well-paying job."</p>
<p>Not true. I agree that it is certainly easier to get a job coming out of a top law school, but that doesn't mean that every graduate of HLS goes to work at a huge law firm, making oodles of money, or that other lawyers are unemployable simply because they didn't go to a top law school. Keep in mind, too, that not everyone wants to work the kinds of hours you have to work in law to make those top dollars. That said, practicing law can be extremely profitable.</p>
<p>"MBA's top out much higher than lawyers and doctors are for the most part guaranteed a job."</p>
<p>MBAs are by no means guaranteed a job. Do you know how many unemployed and underemployed people with MBAs are out there who got laid off over the past few years and who haven't yet been able to find work in their chosen fields or work that pays as much as the job they had previously? Corporate America is brutal, and when those layoffs come (with increasing frequency these days), it's not just those who have received poor performance reviews who are let go. Furthermore, while someone who becomes a highly successful investment banker after receiving their MBA (and who sticks with investment banking - we are talking about a fraction of those who start out in investment banking here) will likely make more money on average than someone who graduated from law school, not everyone goes into investment banking coming out of MBA programs (again, we're talking about a percentage here - Wharton MBA class of 2005 it was 22.2%). In fact, many go into fields that have a wide variety of salaries (again, for example, the compensation range for students coming out of the Wharton MBA program in 2005 were from $30,000 to $300,000, the average salary was $100,000), many of which are lower than average lawyer salaries. In fact, if you consider that most Wharton MBA candidates already have several years of work experience behind them, an average salary of $100,000 does not compare favorably to the salaries of first year lawyers at top law firms in major cities ($135,000 starting salary).</p>
<p>Thanks for those excellent answers Sallyawp! Another question thats semi-related:</p>
<p>I know that you have a JD/MBA and that you're now working in a law related profession, what made you choose the law path over the business path?</p>
<p>I've read that lawyers have one of the lowest job satisfaction ratings (which I hope is not true), Is the above statement correct from what you have seen and what should people do (internships maybe?) to make sure that law is for them?</p>
<p>In your opinion, which is a better path: BigLaw or an in house counsel?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Not Sally but you can use the search function to read her postings ;</p>
<p>About being a lawyer, she wrote:</p>
<p>*I am a practicing corporate lawyer who has done both the big law firm thing and the in house route. I absolutely love practicing law. I love the everyday challenges and I truly enjoy finding creative solutions to my clients problems and learning about different industries and business customs.</p>
<p>That said, I think that there are some tremendous problems in the legal industry that lead to immense dissatisfaction and burn out. First, students choose to attend law school, often straight out of college (often a big mistake, I think), and come out of law school with $100,000 or more in student loan debt. Well, that kind of debt load certainly limits your career options. I think that many graduates are pushed into practice at the big firms simply because it is the only way these students will be able to repay their loans. A government or public interest job (even with a generous loan forgiveness program), with their lower salaries, may not be an option. A graduate in this situation who may have enjoyed and excelled at a career at the public defender's office may leave the practice of law after some time with the big firm. Second, as big law firms have raised salaries over the last 5-10 years, I think attitudes have changed. These law firms seem to think they own their well paid associates in ways that go far beyond any harsh workload that might have been inflicted upon young associates 20 years ago (or so I have repeatedly been told by attorneys who came up through the ranks at that time). Perhaps even worse, clients, who have seen the billable rates for these same young associates go through the roof make increasingly arduous demands (A couple of years ago I heard a client say, "For the amount I'm paying for you to do this work, you should be making my lunch and filing my toenails too." Nice guy.). Any sense of the genteel or "white shoe" law firm has fallen away. In this environment, law hardly qualifies as a "profession" anymore. Finally, as some previous posters have mentioned, corporate America has changed dramatically, which directly affects associates at big law firms (who usually count as many Fortune 500 companies among their clients as possible). Headcounts are down at corporations, but the workload is way up -- particularly in law departments where Sarbanes-Oxley, accounting rule changes and corporate compliance are now the focus of much corporate attention. These conditions affect both associates at big law firms, who have to deal with increasingly stressed out and overly burdened clients, and to in house lawyers, who are often asked to accomplish a tremendous amount with very little staffing and resources. </p>
<p>Of course, despite it all, I really do love being a lawyer. Am I glutton for punishment? Maybe. I think that I used to just shut up and take it when I worked at my big NYC law firm -- what choice did I have? However, the experience that I gained in that law firm is absolutely invaluable, and I wouldn't have the fantastic job that I have today, nor would I have the vast high level experience that enables me to do my job well without having worked at that big law firm for several years. I would do things that same way again if given the choice.</p>
<p>My best advice for those considering law school is to go in with your eyes open. What you see in a law school classroom is not what you will see or experience practicing law. I would encourage prospective law students to take an internship in law or to work as a paralegal for a couple of years before law school. Go and see for yourself.*</p>
<p>Thanks, sybbie!</p>
<p>haha sorry about that. </p>
<p>I had one last question not related to my original question, but since I didn't want to make a new thread I thought I'd post it on here.</p>
<p>Montauk in his book on "How to get into the top law schools" says something along the lines of if you are a typical polisci major, you need to show how you stand out and on the other hand if you are not a typical law school applicant you should show how you can fit in. My question is, how would someone go about in showing they can fit in at law school?</p>
<p>Hi, everyone. I am a second year student at Pomona College and am very interested in pursuing a joint degree (JD/MPP). I was wondering if any of the previous posters have experience with this particular program or know of anyone that has graduated with these degrees. I am currently volunteering my time at a domestic violence-related nonprofit and am really interested in a future career at this organization in legal counseling. I am a Public Policy Analysis/Politics major and am interested in public policy and its relationship with law. After college, I plan on working and interning for similar organizations but would love to hear some advice about the practicality of pursuing a joint degree.</p>
<p>Sally></p>
<p>"Please keep in mind that the skyrocketing cost of medical malpractice insurance is causing many excellent doctors to stop practicing medicine altogether,"</p>
<p>Ceretain states are particularly notorious for this, most notably Pennsylvania, where you got your post-grad degrees. While malpractice insurance is high, its usually not enough to force a doctor into the poorhouse by any means. Doctors still make 6 figures for the most part and have jobs that are more or less non-layoff-able.</p>
<p>"Not true. I agree that it is certainly easier to get a job coming out of a top law school, but that doesn't mean that every graduate of HLS goes to work at a huge law firm, making oodles of money, or that other lawyers are unemployable simply because they didn't go to a top law school."</p>
<p>If you are at a law school ranked below 25, you need to graduate near the top of your class to land a decent job (near 6 figures). Even at Harvard Law, I know friends of friends who slacked off because they thought they had made it and were unable to find jobs. </p>
<p>Considering law schools cost more or less the same anywhere you go, the expected value of a law degree becomes much riskier and lower the more you descend USNews rankings. </p>
<p>For the last part, it was a conjunctive phrase and there were two sentences. I never said MBA's were sure of jobs. I just said they could top out higher. Each of the "top" professions has differing levels of risk and compensation. My point was that MBA's have the highest salary ceiling by far, even though its far from certain you will ever achieve it. Doctors probably make the least in economic terms, but are compensated for this by the lower risk in their profession: noone gets fired (mostly). Most law careerthemselves have a pretty straight and clear career path but there are many parts along the way that make it riskier than being a doctor.</p>
<p>For one, job placement is dependent on class ranking and gaining a position on law journal.</p>
<p>Even after you become an associate, the rate of attrition can be high and you can be put on a non-partner track very easily even if you survive.</p>
<p>There are many dead-end career paths in law as well. If you don't land an associate position right off the bat, you are basically delegated to bad jobs with nowhere up to go.</p>
<p>
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<p>There is some truth to your statement if you define a "decent" job as 6 figures. In fact, most at schools in the top 25 will not land this kind of job unless they are somewhere near the top of their class. On the other hand, not everyone defines success as having a job that requires 70+ hour weeks, accompanied by the liklihood of not even being with the same firm in five years. Some actually value quality of life more than that kind of opportunity. For what it is worth, I know a good number of successful attorneys who did not go to a "top 14" or "top 25" law firm who lead very comfortable lives, and actually have a life.</p>
<p>So about the in-house counsel thing. I get the myth that attorneys who work for say, McDonalds, get great hours, really good pay, good benefits, etc, etc. But how many lawyers get to work at these great companies as counsel ? TRUE or FALSE: 1) You'd probably have to have at least a few years of experience before going to work as an in-house counsel ? 2) You probably have to attend a top law school to work for an international company, let alone an american company 3) They don't just accept everyone, you have to have "hot" credentials, qualifications, recommendations.... Also, are there relatively smaller companies/corporations that need in-house counsel ? I've been hearing lately that a large company such as Pizza Hut for example, isn't going to hire an average joe lawyer when they need to be defended from a John Doe who is threatening them with a 6 million dollar lawsuit after choking on a piece of pepporoni (silly example, i know, hahaha). Big companies need the very best, don't they ? Also, do they work relatively reasonable hours , or are they constantly slaving away over mounds of paperwork just as a big law firm lawyer is ?</p>
<p>I just got back from a business trip and I am exhaused, so I will be brief here:</p>
<ol>
<li> Doctors are not just leaving the practice of medicine in Pennsylvania due to the skyrocketing cost of medical malpractice insurance -- it's happening everywhere. In fact, when I wrote those words, I was thinking of my doctors I know in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut who have simply stopped practicing in the last two years. I have a college friend who just sold her family practice in northern California for the same reason, and who and is taking a "doctor behind a desk" job, as she likes to call it. Would these doctors have been "poor" if they kept practicing medicine -- by your definition of six figures as the only acceptable salary, yes. It's not just anecdotal evidence that I've based my statements on, though, you can certainly find the many articles that have been written about this trend in the general news media, as well as in industry media.</li>
</ol>
<p>Oh, and for the record, many doctors practice in smaller practice groups or solo. In that context, you never get laid off, so you are correct about that. You can go out of business, choose to leave an unprofitable practice or even be asked to leave a shared practice. It happens all the time.</p>
<ol>
<li> Is it easier to get a good job (again, by your definition, one that pays six figures) coming out of a T14 law school? I would agree that that is true. However, not everyone wants those big firm jobs that pay six figures right out of law school. Plenty of law graduates want to work outside of the several big cities where those kinds of salaries are paid, or they want to work in a smaller firm environment, or they want to work in an area of law that doesn't pay that kind of money, or they want to work in public interest or for the government. Additionally, a lawyer who comes from a law firm ranked "below 25" (and we all know that those rankings are entirely accurate, right) is not unemployable by virtue of coming out of that law school. </li>
</ol>
<p>As for your friends of friends of friends who went to HLS and who slacked off and couldn't find jobs, all I can say is that they must have walked into any interviews they motivated to do and made it quite obvious that they were unmotivated, unambitious and not so excited about practicing law. Doesn't sound like a candidate I would call back from an interview on campus. I've been interviewing on campus for years, and your friend's friends might as well have plastered a flashing neon sign above their heads that said "Don't Hire Me". Finding a job of any kind out of HLS is as close to a sure thing as you can find -- potential employers start wining and dining and sponsoring events for HLS students from just about the moment they walk through the doors. That's true at several other law schools as well, but no where to the extent I've seen it at HLS. You have to try pretty hard or have some awful interviewing skills to avoid getting some kind of job out of HLS. </p>
<ol>
<li> Can an MBA "top out higher" as you mentioned? I guess. Keep in mind, though, that most MBA graduates do not go into banking, where the money you are thinking of seems to be. Of those who do go into banking, many will never be promoted from associate to VP, either because they quit for one reason or another, or because they weren't invited to make the jump.<br></li>
</ol>
<p>In addition, remember that most MBA candidates do not begin business school until they have 5-6 or more years of work experience under their belts. So let's say that, on average, the youngest graduates of top MBA programs are 28-29 years old. At that point, for example, published statistics show that the graduates from the Wharton MBA program last year made, on average, $100,000 starting salary. By comparison, someone who goes to a top law school right out of college graduates when they are 25 and, if working at a big firm in a big city, makes $145,000 starting salary then. The salaries increase lockstep during the following years -- $155,000, $170,000, $190,000 -- so that by the time that associate is 29, that associate is making $210,000 per year. So, to draw the obvious conclusion, in this example (I know, there are a lot of assumptions there) we are talking, at age 29, about $100,000/year on average versus $210,000/year on average. I think that your generalizations regarding MBA candidates refer only to an incredibly small percentage who start in and stay in investment banking. </p>
<p>I think that there are excellent opportunities in medicine, law and business for someone who is smart, dedicated and hardworking. You need to recognize, though, that not everyone makes the choices that you assume. Furthermore, not infrequently, there are roadblocks in your career path that may keep you from the six figure salary that you assume is necessary. You can't simply choose for yourself to be a Managing Director at Goldman Sachs, or a top neurosurgeon or a partner at a top law firm. Sure, you may be smart. Sure, you may be good at what you do. Sometimes, though, life gets in the way, office or other politics make your goals difficult or impossible to achieve, and/or things just don't happen the way you planned them. There are certainly potential rewards in any of these career paths, but recognize that not all of the rewards are necessarily monetary. The trail to the monetary rewards can be marked with breadcrumbs in the woods.</p>
<p>Oops - that turned out to be less than brief.</p>