<p>The reason I made my remark about being independently wealthy is because, even before the economy turned sour, I’ve seen countless people working in law firms for several years to pay off debt before going on to whatever it is they wanted to do in the first place. That’s getting much harder to do and the debt for a law school education can be staggering. Undergrad debt may hurt a little less in some ways because the student is younger when graduating. In the couple of years after law school, many people want to get their own places, get married, have kids. That can be very hard to do with all that debt and more painful that when you are in your early twenties. Just a thought.</p>
<p>zoosermom, you are so right about the debt. In S’s case, he was fortunate that his dad funded to entire undergrad EFC and there was no debt for that. However, what most people don’t realize about professional school debt (according to S) is that the interest isn’t deferred until graduation and that the clock starts ticking as soon as you deposit the check. The powers of compounding are wonderful when you are investing, not so much when you are borrowing with no repayment going on for awhile!</p>
<p>zm makes a very good point. When H and I got married he was 32 and still paying off law school loans. Of course that was a long time ago and the payments weren’t very onerous, but he was working for the city and making a fraction of the salary of someone at a firm. He has been an in-house counsel for a large corporation for the past 25 years and has loved it, but has discouraged both of our kids from going to law school given the current climate - not that either is the least bit interested!</p>
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<p>Yeah, if you cared about what people thought about you. I stopped caring what people think about me a long time ago. Now I’m completely desensitized to social criticism. And my response to "Psh, as if we need more lawyers…:rolleyes: " is always "Yeah, but there’s a shortage of good lawyers. 
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<p>And yes, Top 20 or bust (or full ride at tier 2/3) is true. The economy will get better, but that doesn’t mean the job opportunities will improve for students below the top 20. Job opportunities will improve noticeably for students at top 20 but not that much for everyone else.</p>
<p>A close relative graduated from a low ranked law school in 2008, had a job lined up with the state in the department she had interned. Boom, economy happened, no more job, passed the bar and had a lot of trouble getting first gig. Tended bar to pay the bills. She finally got a job in a small young firm. Works long hours at low pay. She’s been learning how to be a lawyer. She recently got her first win at a trial! Ecstasy! Couldn’t be happier. </p>
<p>Figure out what you love and do it.</p>
<p>The problem, ClassicRockerDad, comes in when you find that you love not living in your parents’ basement more than you love being a lawyer.</p>
<p>I’m not saying don’t do it, I’m just saying “know what the cost will be.” Especially if you have to borrow.</p>
<p>I am a lawyer, H is a lawyer and S1 is taking his 1L exams as we speak. I practiced at a large NYC firm for 6 years and retired to raise my family. The world is not as it was and I am watching firms like mine go back to the days when there were 15 people in an incoming class. My S worked for 2 years after graduating college and when he decided to shoot for law school I did everything in my power to dissuade him. I really felt like he was not cut out for that kind of environment and would ultimately be unhappy. He, however, had been working for 2 years and had a really well-defined interest that he felt could be strengthened by a law school education. He is getting a getting a dual degree (another story, and more school!), so we’ll see how this all plays out in 3 years, but at least he had a defined reason to want law school. I’ve seen too many use law school as a default position (I was one of them 32 years ago), and in this current economy I don’t think it’s a worthwhile investment unless you really know why you’re going. I agree with MOWC that regional schools are a good bet if you know that’s where you want to practice, but otherwise you will need to be in the absolute top of the class to translate a degree from a regional school into a Vault 100 (think Wall St., top DC or other national firms) firm job, and even that is no guarantee these days. Today even students at the T14 law schools are fighting for those elusive firm/clerkship/government jobs. My feeling is, if you know why you want law school, and have specific interests and focus, it can be a very valuable degree. If it’s something to do because you don’t know what you want to do, figure that out first, before spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a degree that may not provide a return on the investment.</p>
<p>Keilexandra, I understand your point. I like library science, but I am more drawn to information theory and research. I may continue my education beyond the master’s degree.</p>
<p>Anyone know about careers in international law? D is majoring in 2 languages as undergrad (not Spanish, Arabic or Chinese), spending time abroad in 2 different countries to increase fluency. International law is a possible goal.</p>
<p>To practice international law, one would often work in a large law firm. Those jobs are incredibly hard to come by unless you’ve gone to a top law school, have a great transcript and something else. It seems for the incoming class, the only people having an easy time are clerks. Who knows if that will continue? The question remains: can your daughter handle the cost of paying for law school or is she willing to make whatever lifestyle sacrifices are necessary to pay off any possible debt?</p>
<p>Keilexandra, would be the perfect transactional lawyer. To be successful, you need to be at least a tad complusive about organization, to delight in reading a document that is 89 pages, 10 point font, legal sized paper that would cause others’ eyes to glaze over. You have a client who is buying 52 properties in 26 states and each state has different conveyance rules, each property has a title commitment, survey, exception documents and leases to review. Keeping it all organized is a fun challenge for some, a disaster for others. I think you should become a commercial real estate attorney. Real estate will be back by the time you’re out of school.</p>
<p>Don’t go into international law thinking you’re going to save the world. Chances are, you’ll end up working for a multinational.</p>
<p>I’m going into tax law. I’m good with numbers, I’m OCD, my life is in a constant state of organized chaos, and I can process massive amounts of information and sort through it by relevance.</p>
<p>“Would getting a low-level job at a law firm help? Doing volunteer work? Shadowing a lawyer?”</p>
<p>Yes, this would be helpful if the student has a clear idea of what kind of lawyer she’d like to be, and can find a position working with that type of lawyer.</p>
<p>The vast majority of law students in this country are making a terrible investment of time and money that they are unlikely to recoup. That was the case even when the economy was good, and it is impossible to overstate how awful the market for lawyers is right now. It’s usually a much better investment at the top 14 (especially top 3), or at regional schools that dominate a small market where the student wants to practice, or if the student has family support or a scholarship that leads to little/no debt. So it’s highly dependent on the student and the circumstances.</p>
<p>The accredited law schools of the U.S. graduate around 43,000 new JDs every year. That’s madness. Make sure that you will not be lost in that crowd.</p>
<p>I agree with everything runnersmom and Hanna wrote! I’m a lawyer, my husband is a lawyer, everyone in my extended family is a lawyer. My older son is considering law school, and both of his parents are strenuously opposed. I think law school is a poor investment for most students these days.</p>
<p>missypie,
You described my DH to a “t.” Guess what? He’s a commercial real estate lawyer in a major metro area. </p>
<p>Generally, he DESPISES his life as a lawyer and he’s been at it for over 30 years. I also practiced law, but in the government area, and I’m not a big fan, either. Almost every day DH brings home the Law Journal to show me which other big firms are letting attorneys go because of the economy. It’s not a pretty picture, and it’s going to take a long time to recover, if it ever even gets to the point that it was five years ago.</p>
<p>My mom is a partner in a small law firm and she never seems to be without work. Like any other job, she says it has its good days and bad days. She sent me an article this morning that told about how difficult it was for new grads right now, though: </p>
<p>[As</a> Troubling Indicators Mount for 2010 Law Grads, an ABA Expert Issues a Warning - News - ABA Journal](<a href=“http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/as_troubling_indicators_mount_for_2010_law_grads_an_aba_expert_issues_a_war]As”>As ‘Troubling Indicators’ Mount for 2010 Law Grads, an ABA Expert Issues a Warning)</p>
<p>the ones who make $200k a year are the outliers, not the norm. The market is saturated with lawyers, it is not a good investment.</p>
<p>Being loan adverse, I would recommend only going to law school if you have the money in hand or go at night (like I did) and work during the day. It is very hard to do this. No sleep, no life other than law school. But I have been practicing law for 25 years with the federal government and have a good life. Going to school at night will allow you to work at law firms after your first year. It is very hard to find legal jobs, so experience will definitely help. It takes 4 years to go to law school at night. And if you go, work very hard and get to know your professors. Too many law school graduates. Only the best will succeed in the legal profession.</p>
<p>I’ve been practicing law for over 30 years, now working for a Fortune 500. I have a kid in law school. My advice to my kid before he went to law school was </p>
<p>(1) Recognize that being a lawyer does not mean that you will get respect as a professional. There are so many lawyers (every family has at least one LOL) that it doesn’t mean much anymore. People will not be impressed. People will not be scared. People won’t assume that you’re smart. In fact, most people will start off with a negative impression. They will assume that you’re unethical, argumentative and arrogant. They could be angry about the outcome of a divorce or other personal matter, and take it out on you.</p>
<p>(2) Having said #1, I was trained to believe that it is the professional responsiblity of each lawyer to protect and honor the laws of this country, and to be ethical. Each lawyer has a responsiblity to their community to be a leader and to represent the profession. Each lawyer has an opportunity to earn respect and be a a role model for the best of the profession. Nobody said this was going to be easy.</p>
<p>(3) Most people assume that lawyers make a good living. Many lawyers make an average living. There are no guarantees of financial success. There’s no getting around the fact that if you’re borrowing a lot of money for law school, you have to worry about how to pay it back.</p>
<p>(4) If you get into a T20 school, you are not guaranteed success. You may find it easier to get that first job or clerkship, and you may even find yourself making six figures (but that six-figure salary may not go as far as you think if you’re in an expensive city). What nobody tells you, is that you can find yourself unemployed again in 5-8-10 yrs if you don’t make partner or your firm loses a client. That big salary put you out of the market for most of the rest of the legal market, and your assignments may not have given you marketable experience. Hard work and being a good employee won’t guarantee you a partnership.</p>
<p>(5) If you don’t get into a T20 school, you are not guaranteed failure. There are many more of us practicing law than there are T20 alumni. We work in law firms, companies, courts and other government agencies, and most of us have a soft-spot for graduates of our own law schools. Many of us find the arrogance and unreasonable financial expectations of T20 grads to be undesirable. There are also a lot of cities and towns where lawyers work outside of New York, Boston, Chicago and the other big cities in the United States. </p>
<p>(6) Being really smart, liking to argue, political activism or enjoying public speaking does not mean you will do well in law school. Being a business or history major doesn’t give you an edge over an education major. There are constantly studies over which “major” does better on the LSAT and whether the LSAT is an indicator of law school success. (Obviously, the law schools believe that it is, since they weight numbers so heavily when considering candidates.) About the only thing that everyone agrees on, is that classes with critical reasoning and reading skills are helpful.</p>
<p>(7) Whether you’re in a T20 school or a lower ranked school, some students in your class will do worse than others. Watch Paper Chase. Ask law students. They will alll tell you about the “gunner” who appeared to have all the answers in class who didn’t get good grades, or the brilliant student whose mind just wasn’t wired to handle legal studies. They will all know someone who drops out since they decide law school isn’t for them. Conversely, there will be students who are “naturals,” who seem to take to legal thinking as if born to it even if their resumes aren’t the best in the class. Trying to identify those students in advance is the very inexact science that admissions committees practice. A student with high numbers is not guaranteed good grades if he/she selects a lower ranked school. A student with numbers on the low side isn’t guaranteed poor grades if he/she gets accepted at a higher ranked school.</p>
<p>(8) Higher ranked schools claim that they produce better quality lawyers. Schools may produce lawyers who are better able to do research (potential judicial law clerks), or lawyers who are better able to start working right out of school (clinical experiences), but the truth is that no graduate comes out ready to actually practice law. </p>
<p>(9) Schools don’t teach common sense. You can give a lawsuit to five new lawyers. Each of them will approach it differently: as a case with a unique legal issue that should be argued before the highest court, a case with strong public interest elements, as a case with potentially huge damages/fee; as a case where the attorney’s skills will be showcased; or as a case where one party may obtain leverage. Only one of them may be able to jump to the analysis that the parties should negotiate a settlement quickly for commercial reasons. That new lawyer is likely to be the one with the happiest client. A graduate of a 4T school with a good legal mind and common sense is much more valuable than a graduate of a T20 school with no common sense.</p>
<p>(10) Being a lawyer changes you. You will see the world differently. You will watch the news differently. Your relationships with your family and others will be changed forever. You will see the world in shades of gray, instead of black and white. You will argue with family members and friends differently. You will be joining a secret club with magic passwords and clubhouses (courthouses). </p>
<p>How do you know if this is the right path, before incurring the expense? Read whatever you can about being a law student. There are many books about going to law school. Visit a law school and sit in on a class. Are you bored, terrified, intrigued or interested? Visit another school and compare the experience, since schools will vary. Talk to law students. Talk to lawyers, and ask them what they do all day. Flip through some Nutshell, Emmanuel or other legal outline books in a bookstore, and see if the contents have any interest to you at all. </p>
<p>If it’s in your blood, become a lawyer. Whether you go to a T20 or a 4T, your goal should be to never stop working towards the highest professional standards.</p>
<p>And as for the “best” law schools, the only 2 people I fired in my career as an attorney went to Ivy League law schools. My best attorneys often went to small, regional law schools. They happened to be the hardest workers.</p>