Law school: yes or no?

Parents Forum
81

<p>Been a lawyer 27 years; here’s my two-cents:</p>

<ol>
<li> Unless you have a burning desire to be a lawyer, DON’T GO TO LAW SCHOOL. I say this for two reasons. First, I’m part of the generation where if you didn’t know what you wanted to do when you got out of college, or couldn’t find a job doing anything else(can’t do much with a degree in history, I learned), you went to law school. Most of these people are out of the profession, doing something totally unrelated to law, for which they didn’t need a law degree. Probably the biggest canard I’ve seen in my career is idea you can do anything with a law degree-that’s absolustely not true. There have been numerous books written on the topic by the one in one hundred thousand lawyer who’s now a Hollywood producer. For 99% of people, you can do one thing with your law degree-practic law. Make sure that’s what you want to do.
We live in an age of specialization; if a business wants a person with an unusual background; trust me, someone’s got a master’s degree in that obscure field. That business isn’t going to hire you just because you have a law degree. So plan to practice, or don’t go.</li>
</ol>

<p>Second, it’s a living wage, but not great pay. I attended a public, bottom tier-one law school back in the 80s. It was really cheap; I could pay for my tuition and books with the part-time restaurant job I had, and I lived with my parents.<br>
That day has long passed; even state law schools, all inclusive, will cost you 30k per year. I work at a state agency in the mid-West; we pay new attorneys 55k per year-when we’re willing to hire someone right out of law school. Usually, any job we post we get dozens of resumes from experienced lawyers who are willing, years out of law school, to take a job with that kind of pay.
And our office employs about two hundred lawyers, the vast majority of whom make less than 90K a year; this is the salary for lawyers with 10+ years of experience. It’s a good living, but you won’t get rich.</p>

<p>I know private practice can be lucrative, but I also know guys in their late 40s who are still rent-sharing with 10 other attorneys to cut costs, sharing one receptionist, not carrying malpractice insurance because it costs too much, etc., ad naseum.</p>

<p>I get calls every week with people I went to law school with-again, back in the 80s-asking if I know of any jobs that are available.I could go on and on; I’ve got two college age kids and I hope neither goes to law school. If you go, go T14 or do very, very well at any other school to be competive for law jobs.
Years ago, the job market was lousy, but we didn’t have anywhere near the debt; with starting pay so low for most law jobs, how will you ever pay it back and still have a regular life? I shudder when I hear our law interns talk of law school debt of 30K, 60K, and higher-all this on top of college loans!</p>

<p>So think it through. If you go T14, maybe things are different, but for us public law school types, a law degree is no Golden Ticket. Unless it’s a real passion, don’t go.</p>

82

<p>I thought the job market was running low for lawyers. Isn’t the market flooded now?
That is just what I have heard through some of our lawyer friends. If you are passionate about that path, I am sure you can still have a great career for yourself.</p>

83

<p>MOWC is exactly right about the regional turn that hiring has taken. Definitely a trend that I think will continue.</p>

<p>One thing I’ve noticed this year in BigLaw is that hiring is a two-tier system (more than usual). Clerks can pretty much write their own tickets and are still getting the big signing bonuses, but anyone who didn’t clerk has to get really lucky.</p>

<p>Another thing I always tell people: do something interesting between college and law school. It’s become much harder for people to get hired who’ve gone to good colleges, good law schools and done nothing else. We’ve hired people that were clowns and street performers in between, professors, teachers, secretaries, paralegals, whatever you can think of. Because they’re more interesting, more mature, require less hand-holding and often bring a particular skill set. Ph.D.s in science are hugely popular as lawyers.</p>

<p>Work a couple of years, save a bucket of money, then go to law school so you can be more attractive to employers AND have less debt.</p>

<p>Currently, I work in a firm where there are over 100 temp attorneys in our basement. This is pretty common in large law firms to do the icky work. No benefits, make less money than secretaries, unpleasant working conditions and no career path. Think and plan carefully.</p>

84

<p>Both my wife and I have been lawyers for 18 years (we met in Law School). I also have an MBA. I went the large firm route, and subsequently moved in-house as a General Counsel for a public company. Wife needed more flexibility and went the small local firm route, then in-house in the telecom industry, left the law for a few years, and is now back at a small firm part-time. Her earning capacity as a lawyer never quite got past what I made my first year out. She regrets having gone to law school - feels it wasted 3 years of earning capacity and she never loved being a lawyer. I hated law firm life and, had I not been able to move in-house, would have left the law. So, given where I landed, I don’t regret going to law school.</p>

<p>Bottom line, if you LOVE the law and have passion for it (or are committed to going into politics), like anything else, go for it. If you are just looking for a professional “white-collar” career that can be lucrative and interesting, look elsewhere. The job market for lawyers is horrible and not getting better any time soon. The pay, while good at the large firms, comes with a price - 24x7 work - and drops off precipitously outside the large firms. Unless you become a business generating partner, you aren’t going to get really rich being a lawyer.</p>

<p>PM me if you want any further insights!</p>

<p>Ed</p>

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<p>Ed- I am with you! I feel like kissing the ground every day I walk into my wonderful in-house job. I would have HATED working at a law firm, but I absolutely love what I do and have liked most of my in-house positions (a few notable exceptions with terrible companies).</p>

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<p>I also love my law-related, non-practice job and have no regrets. But I would not have borrowed $150,000 to go to law school. Lucky thing, too, because with serious debt, I wouldn’t have been able to take this job. I’d have tried to stick around the firm past my natural expiration date, I’d have gotten caught in the downturn, and I’d be in extremely bad shape right now.</p>

87

<p>See??^^^</p>

<p>Less debt = more options. </p>

<p>If you love it and you can figure out a way to do it without crippling yourself with debt, go for it!</p>

88

<p>What is an in-house job, and why is it more interesting?</p>

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<p>I agree with zm, I am just posting again to make sure I don’t get any undeserved credit for figuring anything out. It was pure luck on my part.</p>

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<p>An “in-house” job means that you are a lawyer employed by a company directly, as opposed to working for a law firm. Those jobs tend (with the inevitable exceptions) to (a) be better lifestyle-wise - more reasonable hours; (b) involve more teaming with colelagues at the company who are not lawyers; (c) provide opportunities to perform tasks that are not “purely” legal; and (d) don’t require you to become a “Rainmaker” and bring in business to succeed. Its all a matter of what fits you better…</p>

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<p>Lurking on this thread with interest. DS is finishing his undergrad degree (Criminal Justice) this year. Wants to go to law school but taking time off in between. He will finish undergrad with no debt but there really isn’t money for law school left in our coffers. Plan is for him to take a job, save money by living at home, study for LSATs in the next year or two. He has done two significant six month full time internships: one conducting background checks one for a state agency sentencing commission. </p>

<p>He has been contacting various lawyers in our area who have either worked for us or whom we know socially trying to find a position even part time as a clerk, receptionist or runner. Definitely regional…we are not in a big city. Won’t be physically here till August. He has been sending out emails, resumes, etc. Has contacted one firm which didn’t have a position but sent him a whole list of other firms to contact. </p>

<p>Glad to hear that others recommend taking any low level law job one can get and waiting a bit between undergrad and law school. I’ve been telling him that even taking a job as a runner for a firm will get him in the door. Am I wrong in that? Any other advice greatly appreciated.</p>

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<p>H and I have been lawyers for around 30 years each. H’s daughter and her H have been lawyers for about 15 years. All in NY/NJ heavily saturated market. Among the four of us, our practice has consisted of: State Supreme Court and state trial court clerkship, federal clerkship, state Attorney General trial and appellate practice, national law firm associate criminal and civil, state public defender, insurance defense firm, staff of state agency, major state firm associate-non-partner track, judicial administration, sole practitioner in a general practice. We’ve seen and done a lot in the law. Many of our friends are lawyers.</p>

<p>Based on all of this, here are my comments, observations, and suggestions:

  • get a good idea of what the life of a lawyer in your area of interest is (I did this by training and working as a paralegal after college in a national firm and going to law school at night)
    -don’t expect to make a bundle of money unless you are prepared to live in your office (solo practice or major law firm)
  • to make a lot of money as a lawyer, in addition to be being a really good lawyer, you will have to be a good business person, very creative and/or good at marketing yourself, or be in a firm that does so
  • to be intellectually stimulated, don’t go into a practice that involves the same issues or legal work day in and day out
  • to be personally satisfied, go into public interest law (usually not a lot of $) or work in a large firm with opportunities for pro bono work (common these days, $ plus satisfaction, but still, they own you and you will live at the office) or work in government with public contact
    -as with other professions, the better you are at your craft (as it were) and the higher you rise, the more you will be an administrator/manager and the less you will be what drew you to the profession to begin with. Be prepared for this shift.</p>
93

<p>I already wrote the statement below but I am rewriting it to see if I could get some advice.</p>

<p>I love law and I think that my best bet would be a dual JD/MBA , that way I will have more flexibility with my future.What should I do between undergrad and Law/Business school? I know for sure that I will not be able to go to a to 14 law school because I pretty much messed up my undergraduate career.I have already looked at dual MBA/JD program for some universities just to get an insight of the application process and the program. </p>

<p>I have taken a business law class and I love it. I was the only person in the class who likes it. Following my undergraduate studies, I want to work part time in the banking or marketing industry while working on a Master of Sciences in Accounting. Two years after my MSA degree, I would like to go to law school and earn a dual MBA/JD degree. I don’t want to be a litigator.I want to know as much as I can on International Trade and International Law. I would like to be a consultant for foreign governments that want to attract businesses in their countries or foreign corporation that want to establish businesses abroad.</p>

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<p>Survivor - I went the JD/MBA route but wasn’t sure which way I wanted to head while I was in college. I took both my LSATs and GMATs (took the GMAT the day of the '87 market crash - walked out of the test, saw the market had crashed, and said, “I just wasted 4 hours”). Because I had no work experience, I applied to law school and didn’t apply to the MBA program until I was already halfway through my first year of law school. There are MBA programs that will be more likely to accept you if you are already attending their law school.</p>

<p>In terms of work experience, based on your stated desire to focus on international business/law, I would recommend working at an investment bank or a consulting firm that has a global footprint. Marketing is probably less relevant, but if you love it, go for it.</p>

<p>I will say that your stated career goal would seem to not require a law degree - never hurts to have one, but are you willing to invest all that additional time if its not necessary to meet your goals? As others have said on this thread, if you aren’t passionate about being a lawyer, think long and hard before going to law school…</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

95

<p>Wow, such a great wealth of information and personal experiences here. Thanks to everyone who posted.</p>

96

<p>Great advice! I will try to get a MAS a year after graduation, then depending on my financial situations and priorities in the years to come, I will decide between the JD/MBA or MBA.Thanks!</p>

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<p>Given the 50+ blogs about law school students with 100K+ debt and ~30k/year incomes - I tend to think there needs to be a lot of thought about possible incomes before taking on that much debt.</p>

98

<p>Be warned…foreign outsourcing is the new rave. Its legal and its being done by big firms for cheaper labor and to appease clients tired of attorneys being paid 160k a year to do low level legal work that can be done by Indian Lawyers in Mumbai for 7k a year. </p>

<p>Digitalization is also taking jobs.</p>

<p>Be warned.</p>

99

<p>^ Comical post there, ghostbuster</p>

100

<p>It isn’t comical. It’s reality. One of my LS classmates is running a company that outsources document review to India. The work that “contract attorneys” do for big firms can be outsourced. (Contract lawyers don’t make $160,000 a year. ) </p>

<p>With the growth of international conglomerates, sometimes there are other reasons for outsourcing document review. Some foreign countries don’t require as much to be disclosed in litigation. So, by keeping the documents outside the US, the company can withhold info from discovery which would have to be disclosed if the documents were in the US.</p>