Hawaii also has no reciprocity. Otherwise a huge number of lawyers would “retire” here, I imagine, and try to pick up a few clients for spending money, between golf games. Even so, when I took the bar in 2008, the room was half whippersnappers and half grey heads.
Also, while some states’ bar exams test state-specific law, not all do. Even after passing the Hawaii bar (which was mostly what they call “multistate,” i.e., general principles), I had a lot of learning to do to get up to speed on Hawaii-specific stuff. (NY, on the other hand, tested a lot of NY-specific law.)
And as an estate and probate lawyer, I do use math fairly frequently - but more business math and accounting, not calculus! I have used geometry, though, to check a land survey (actually got DS to help with that, when he was in HS, as my trig was a bit rusty).
“As to slip and fall attorneys”
People believe that they have been wronged. I guess you could take out a middle man (aka attorney) and go back to where people each take 10 paces turn and draw to resolve their problems.
“most will pass the bar eventually. and the bar is not a science test.”
Passing a bar exam does not mean one is the brightest, above average, or even average. Passing means someone has demonstrated whatever minimal competence a particular State deems necessary to give someone a law license. Passing a bar exam doesn’t mean that they’ll be a good or bad lawyer.
Yes it is. It seems like two or three new law schools cropped up in Florida since I moved here 14-15 years ago (??).
I went to a nice, plain-but-solid public law school in the midwest. Never would I pay private tuition, or OOS $$, for law school unless I could go to one of the top 3 or 4 law schools in the country.
Also, back then our state (in the midwest) did not have MBE as part of the bar exam. Didn’t hit that until I came to Florida. Midwestern state has changed since then, if I’m not mistaken. I actually took an all-written bar exam. Two days of non-stop writing. Made Florida seem easier, even with the MBE.
“Recently Florida has proposed reciprocity instead of requiring lawyers new to the state to pass the Florida bar. This is scary as there are plenty already trying to make a living here plus how would one know if the lawyer one chose knew the law here? Hopefully this isn’t going anywhere”
That’s silly. Most states have reciprocity. And almost no one “knows the law” of a particular state. Even if you THINK you do you must check it before you file legal papers or argue in court. The law changes All The Time. Unless someone focuses on one area it’s all a learning process when you deal with a matter. Especially for trial lawyers.
I would think in certain areas of practice, the transition from state to state would not be a big deal.
On the other hand, I would be nervous in certain areas - particularly real estate, tort law, certain aspects of criminal law or areas of the law where knowing local procedure is important.
Not an exhaustive list btw . . .
I’m not a big fan of easy reciprocity but then again I’ve been steeped in Florida propaganda for awhile.
Interesting info about the FL proposal since both S and DIL are FL attorneys. I am hoping they will move closer to home in the next year or two and they have been investigating states where they can license without taking the bar there. Mine is not one, but evidently TN allows application to the bar without the exam after 5 years in good standing in another state. Would love to see them end up in TN.
Regarding law school grads who can’t pass the bar, law schools are huge cash cows. D spent over 3 years working in development and alumni relations for her brother & sister-in-law’s law school before she was promoted to another area of the university’s development department. She shared a number of articles with me during that time about current trends. Law schools only need libraries whether they are housing physical volumes or digital access or both and classroom space. They are tremendously profitable which is why law schools against the country have had to scramble to fill their classes since the economic downturn in '08 and that has meant lower admission standards for many, particularly those below the top 20. Not at all surprising to me that a rising number of grads are not passing the bar.
@2VU0609 - I did not know that about the TN Bar - thank you! I have lots of family in TN and wouldn’t mind ending up back there, or close by (preferably NC but their bar exam is pretty hard I’ve heard, and my brain is not getting any younger).
Agree with you that law schools can be cash cows. Have seen too many new ones open to think otherwise.
“Recently Florida has proposed reciprocity instead of requiring lawyers new to the state to pass the Florida bar. This is scary as there are plenty already trying to make a living here plus how would one know if the lawyer one chose knew the law here?”
For the most part, state bar exams have little to no relationship to what you actually need to know to practice in a given area in that state. They’re just barriers. Everybody has to learn on the job.
At least regarding the unwillingness of NY to provide reciprocity to CA…one reason I’ve heard cited from several NY area attorneys I’ve worked with and a few attorney relatives in CA is because California allows graduates from non-ABA accredited law schools*…including some pretty sketchy seeming ones take the bar and if they pass…become attorneys.
I do believe they need to be accredited by California's accreditation agency. However, graduates from such non-ABA accredited law schools would have an extremely hard/impossible time in being allowed to become members of the bar in other states.
As far as I know, 'reciprocity is a misnomer. Some states allow attorneys licensed to practice in other state to apply to be waived in regardless if that state allows the same practice. NY may specifically exclude FL and CA, but most other states don’t. The most common is you can waive in if you’ve practiced 5 of the last years, are in good standing, and graduated from an accredited law school.
I think Florida is losing some money when lawyers move to the state. It might be someone who wants to only practice part time, a corporate employee, a government employee. If you could waive in, these people would fill out the paperwork and join the bar, pay the dues, join all the local bar associations. Since they’d have to take the bar, most say ‘forget it.’ (I did, just kept my OOS bar membership while working for the government; wasn’t worth the hassle of taking the bar exam). Corporate attorneys can get a limited license. I think a lot of Atlanta attorneys and some Miss and Ala. attorneys would apply for licenses, but as it is they just do all the work OOS.
And I worked with a ‘rocket scientist’ who had worked for NASA and was anything but smart. He might have been able to do calculus, but that was about it. Couldn’t walk and chew gum at the same time. The exception proves the rule, right?
Reciprocity is becoming a thing of the past anyways, as more states sign up for the UBE. The bar is a largely pointless exercise when it comes to testing the skills of lawyers, as it mostly has nothing to do with practicing law. The sooner it’s done away with (or replaced with something useful) the better.
“I think Florida is losing some money when lawyers move to the state. It might be someone who wants to only practice part time, a corporate employee, a government employee. If you could waive in, these people would fill out the paperwork and join the bar, pay the dues, join all the local bar associations.”
Most states provide exemptions for these types of lawyers. Including Florida. In house counsel can waive in so long as they represent only one client – their employer business.
The protectionist bar exam rules primarily apply to lawyers holding themselves out for hire to the general public.
yes, you can be certified as “Authorized House Counsel” in Florida, licensed in another state (in good standing). Just noticed that the filing fee is $1600 (!!).
@SouthFloridaMom9, my S & DIL are in Palm Beach Co. as well. If you ever meet a young couple at a bar event and ask if the guy’s mom is on CC as my user name, he would likely fall over on the spot. He does not allow me to quote CC because he and his sister say I should have detached from this site years ago. He says just say you saw it on the internet and I’ll know what you mean :))
Yes, you can get a corporate license, or you can practice in federal court, but it is unlikely you’d join the local bar associations and pay those dues. As far as I know, no one at my government agency did unless they were already admitted to the Florida bar. No need to mingle. Most corporations pay the $1600 fee for their employees if they want them registered.
Just saying I think Florida could get some money by allowing experienced attorneys to waive in, especially those who are semi retired or from neighboring states. I know a lot of attorneys who waive into neighboring state just because it is convenient, like Minnesota attorneys having a license in Wisconsin too, or Kansas into Missouri. Not worth it if you have to take the bar, but handy to have if you do 3 or 4 deals a year.
I’ve worked several places where it’s a benefit to have multiple licenses, so the company will pay for the annual dues for attorneys to keep he licenses current for other states.
I believe in reciprocity. If an attorney has practiced more than 5-10 years and is in good standing, I do no think they should have to take the multistate again. Perhaps they should have a small test over areas important and/or different to the state in question but once you are a practicing attorney, I think it should be easier to move.
Your secret is safe with me though. 