<p>Interesting idea, cosar, comparing admit rates for children of Ivy-alumni at other Ivy schools (not the legacy school itself) to the admit rate for legacies and for the general population.</p>
<p>“But I think the numbers speak for themselves: Very few legacies are valedictorians; few legacies get an 800 CR score; few legacies get a 36 ACT score, yet they are accepted at a higher rate than any of these more accomplished applicants.”</p>
<p>How do you know that? How on earth can you know how many legacies are valedictorians or what their SAT scores are? After all, unless the val or 800 SAT scorer is first-generation college, they are a legacy of somewhere.</p>
<p>And I’m not saying “the bar (is) higher for legacies than for regular students” – I’m saying the bar is not set significantly lower for legacies than for regular students.</p>
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[QUOTE=newmassdad]
Clever, equating legacies with valedictorians and those scoring 800 on a SAT section. But I think the numbers speak for themselves: Very few legacies are valedictorians; few legacies get an 800 CR score; few legacies get a 36 ACT score, yet they are accepted at a higher rate than any of these more accomplished applicants.
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<p>Whooooaaaa… as a legacy who was his school’s valedictorian, got 3 800s on SAT 2s, and was accepted both by my legacy school (Princeton) as well as Caltech, and Berkely as an international (this last is actually the hardest of the 3 statistically), I think you better back off on the generalizations there bud. Unless you’re willing to provide evidence to back them up, which could be difficult since I’m pretty sure there is none.</p>
<p>I’m a legacy at an Ivy. I know several other legacies at my school. Some legacies here aren’t the brightest, but you start to notice stuff named after their parents and grand parents. Others of us are doing quite well academically while taking fairly rigorous courses. With admissions the way they are these days top schools probably have a very strong pool of legacy applicants. They obviously will admit some underqualified legacies (I mean, buildings have to be named after someone right?) but I’d say the majority are qualified academically. I’ve seen many strong legacy applicants rejected from Ivies. These schools probably use legacy status as a tip factor for the majority of legacies admitted. Whether or not they admit a legacy they will still get a strong student, but by admitting more legacies than non legacies they are able to increase donations and alumni involvement. Imagine how much donations and alumni involvement would go down if these schools gave 0 legacy preference. People would stop seeing the point in donating to their alma maters if it wouldn’t slightly help their children gain admission.</p>
<p>Alumni involvement is a lot more than donating money. Alumni interview applicants. They organize and host parties for accepted students. They provide summer internships for students and jobs for them after graduation. They help raise money – alumni hold fundraising events and get donations from their classmates and foundations and corporations. They help run their schools, by serving on various committees. They organize and plan reunions. </p>
<p>1of42: Well said.</p>
<p>sly_vt, 1of42,</p>
<p>Oh, so legacies are among the most brilliant in the land? Sorry. I did not realize legacies dominated the ranks of valedictorians, perfect scores on the SAT and perfect scores on the ACT. </p>
<p>Frankly, this discussion has become rather silly. You legacy parents are welcome to labor under the belief that your kids have surmounted huge odds in getting into elite schools, or received little benefit for their pedigree. Life will tell whether their overcoming these challenges was character building or not.</p>
<p>With that, I will bow out of this discussion.</p>
<p>And Venkat89, there are legacies who do have buildings named after their forebears who have their act completely together. I know one at HYP now–he’s a great kid, supersmart, active, nice as all get out, and I’m sure he’ll go far (and in the arts! Yay!)</p>
<p>Newmassdad: I was a legacy at an Ivy League college (although I chose to go to another one). My high school didn’t rank, but I was clearly the top student in my class, and I had one pre-recentering 800 Verbal and my math score was close enough to be an easy 800 in a post-recentered world. My children were both rejected at the college where they were double legacies, and they racked up quite a few 800s between them. I know six children of friends from college who were accepted at our college. One was a valedictorian, two others were the clear top students in their respective classes at a school that doesn’t rank, one was fourth in my son’s large public high school class and a really impressive leader and student, another was fifth in my daughter’s class at the same school, a football starter, and the top humanities student in a really strong class. (The sixth grew up mainly in England; I have no idea where she stood.) I don’t know any of their SATs precisely, except that one of the kids got a 1500 in 8th grade.</p>
<p>Nothing I have seen leads me to believe that legacies get a meaningful break, at HYPS at least. I know one kid who was a Princeton three-generation legacy who was deferred ED and then rejected there, and accepted at Harvard, and a Yale legacy who was rejected there and accepted at Oxford and Harvard.</p>
<p>“Since only a fraction of all the legacies apply, their admit rate is of course quite a bit higher.” I’d bet it’s a pretty big fraction.
I also think there is some confusion here between a legacy admit and a development admit. The development admit is the person with his family name on the new stadium–it’s well known that top schools will compromise on their normal admissions requirements to admit such people, in order to get the money. The question we’re discussing here is whether the schools have to compromise on their normal admissions requirements in order to admit a larger percentage of legacy admissions than from the overall pool. Here’s my prediction: if you were to compare the stats of the average legacy applicant to the stats of the average applicant, the stats of the legacy would be higher. However, if you compared the stats of the average legacy applicant to the average applicant excluding recruited athletes, URMs, and development admits, the average stats would be somewhat, but not a lot, lower.</p>
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I would say this is a fair judgement. …
I would say top or near top ranked legacy kids from a well regarded HS are most likely get accepted. However top or near top ranked non legacy kids from the same HS may not likely be accepted. … I don’t have to look far beyond our local HS.</p>
<p>Slightly different twist - DS was accepted and offered a nice merit scholarship and Honors program at an LAC and declined it. The school called him and made a real effort to get him to go there, but he really preferred another school. DD will be applying to colleges next year, and I think this LAC might be a much better fit for her than it was for DS. We have a very unusual last name, and live near this college. I hope no one in admissions remembers that DS turned them down and assumes DD will do the same! Sort of a negative-legacy?</p>
<p>I would be proactive on that one. Most LACs don’t get so many applications, or make so many pushes to get students, that no one will remember an unusual name from a couple of years ago. If your daughter really is interested, she should go out of her way to show it and to contrast herself with her brother who wasn’t really so interested.</p>
<p>“Oh, and the yield rate for legacies at Brown is significantly higher – ranges from 70-78%”.</p>
<p>I’ll bet other top colleges are similar in this regard. Circumstantial evidence that their legacy schools were the top schools to admit many of them.</p>
<p>Good point, danas, although some legacies will matriculate at parents’ school because of family pressure or tradition.</p>
<p>W and I attended the same “lesser ivy” (not HYP) for both undergrad and grad school. S was accepted there as a double legacy, but chose instead to attend MIT, which he concluded was stronger in his particular field.</p>
<p>We also feel he chose MIT because he wanted to show that he could make it on his own, not follow in the footsteps of his parents. Although we were disappointed, we understand and support his decision.</p>
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<p>Or it reflects the fact that legacies are more likely to apply through the early decision program, where the yield is 100%. A number of schools make clear, either explicitly or implicitly, that they won’t give legacies any additional boost unless they apply early and commit to attend if accepted.</p>
<p>…then there was that one time when I thought “I CAN"T believe I married someone who went to the same college as I did. We deprived S of a second legacy school…” </p>
<p>It was a desperate thought, and kind of funny in retrospect.</p>
<p>Schools that publish their Common Data Set say what the legacy influence is; the most common seems to be “Considered.”</p>
<p>Yale Daily News “Legacies still maintain edge in admissions” [Yale</a> Daily News - Legacies still maintain edge in admissions](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/13301?badlink=1]Yale”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/13301?badlink=1)</p>
<p>Brown - College Hill Independent [The</a> College Hill Independent](<a href=“http://www.brown.edu/Students/INDY/alpha/article.php?id=21&issue_id=188]The”>http://www.brown.edu/Students/INDY/alpha/article.php?id=21&issue_id=188)</p>
<p>Brown Daily Herald [The</a> Brown Daily Herald](<a href=“http://www.browndailyherald.com/media/paper472/news/2004/07/16/CampusNews/FourthGeneration.Student.Arrives.At.Time.When.Legacy.Admissions.Are.Under.Fire-707295.shtml?norewrite&sourcedomain=www.browndailyherald.com]The”>http://www.browndailyherald.com/media/paper472/news/2004/07/16/CampusNews/FourthGeneration.Student.Arrives.At.Time.When.Legacy.Admissions.Are.Under.Fire-707295.shtml?norewrite&sourcedomain=www.browndailyherald.com)</p>
<p>Yale Alumni Magazine “Why Yale favors its Own” [Yale</a> Alumni Magazine: Rick Levin Q&A](<a href=“http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2004_11/q_a.html]Yale”>http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2004_11/q_a.html)</p>
<p>Penn Legacy Admissions [Penn</a> Alumni: Admissions for Legacies](<a href=“http://www.alumni.upenn.edu/aca/]Penn”>http://www.alumni.upenn.edu/aca/)</p>
<p>Stanford University [Legacy</a> admissions: does a family history at the Farm matter? - The Stanford Daily Online](<a href=“http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2005/4/13/legacyAdmissionsDoesAFamilyHistoryAtTheFarmMatter]Legacy”>http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2005/4/13/legacyAdmissionsDoesAFamilyHistoryAtTheFarmMatter)</p>
<p>Notre Dame University [The</a> Observer](<a href=“http://www.ndsmcobserver.com/media/paper660/news/2004/04/21/News/Alumni.React.To.Legacy.Admissions-666562.shtml?norewrite&sourcedomain=www.ndsmcobserver.com]The”>http://www.ndsmcobserver.com/media/paper660/news/2004/04/21/News/Alumni.React.To.Legacy.Admissions-666562.shtml?norewrite&sourcedomain=www.ndsmcobserver.com)</p>
<p>Wall Street Journal [CollegeJournal</a> | News & Trends](<a href=“WSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insights”>WSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insights)</p>
<p>Georgetown University [GU</a> Defends Use of Legacy Admissions | The Hoya](<a href=“http://www.thehoya.com/node/7562]GU”>http://www.thehoya.com/node/7562)</p>
<p>Christian Science Monitor [Family</a> ties: an unfair advantage? | csmonitor.com](<a href=“http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0206/p13s01-legn.html]Family”>Family ties: an unfair advantage? - CSMonitor.com)</p>
<p>Princeton University [PAW</a> October 6, 2004: A moment with…](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archive_new/PAW04-05/02-1006/moment.html]PAW”>PAW October 6, 2004: A moment with...)</p>
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<p>Thanks. One wonders why no one else reads this the same way that I do. He’s telling you there is no legacy preference in any way that it is commonly understood. At Yale.</p>
<p>There can still be a legacy preference. E.g., Yale could admit 100% of the legacies above the average of the rest of the pool, but a far lower percentage of non-legacies above that average, and still be consistent with the above statement.</p>
<p>Schools admit legacies because it is in their own best interest, for whatever reasons they perceive (e.g., fundraising to support financial aid). Schools don’t craft their classes to be fair to applicants; they admit the applicants they want the most, for their own reasons.</p>