<p>Oh and as for URMS not doing as well at selected schools vs. legacies..</p>
<p>You don't think that certain legacies get special treatment? Using Bush Jr. as an example; who in their right mind would fail the Presdient's son? </p>
<p>Come on.</p>
<p>if you want to see an uproar about being legacy, all the colleges would have to announce that Legacies is abolished for anyone who graduates after 2005 meaning for all grads before that year and their sons/daughters the Legacy system is business as usual.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.mat.jhu.edu/%7Esormani/affirm-impact.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.mat.jhu.edu/~sormani/affirm-impact.html</a>
"The Shape of the River: Long-Term Consequences of Considering Race in College and University Admissions." written by two former Ivy League presidents, William Bowen of Princeton University, an economist, and Derek Bok of Harvard University, a political scientist.
[quote]
The study begins by documenting the problem clearly: blacks who enter elite institutions do so with lower test scores and grades than those of whites. And as they work their way through liberal arts colleges like Yale and Princeton and state schools like the Universities of Michigan and North Carolina, black students receive lower grades and graduate at a lower rate.
[/quote]
Despite "on average" lower stats and graduation rates the benefits to the students are great.
[quote]
But after graduation, the survey found, these students achieve notable successes. They earn advanced degrees at rates identical to those of their white classmates. They are even slightly more likely than whites from the same institutions to obtain professional degrees in law, business and medicine. And they become more active than their white classmates in civic and community activities.</p>
<p>The authors call black graduates of elite institutions "the backbone of the emergent black middle class" and say that their influence extends well beyond the workplace. "They can serve as strong threads in a fabric that binds their own community together and binds those communities into the larger social fabric as well."</p>
<p>One of the most striking findings is how much an elite college education serves as a pathway to success for all races. Blacks who graduate from elite colleges earn 70 percent to 85 percent more than do black graduates generally.
[/quote]
What about those that feel displaced??
[quote]
A more troubling question, the authors acknowledge, regards the white students whom these black students displaced. Would society have been better off if they had attended instead of the blacks?</p>
<p>"That is the central question," the authors write, "and it cannot be answered by data alone." It is a clash of "principle versus principle, not principle versus expediency." They come down firmly on the side of admitting the blacks, saying that society needs them because of the scarcity of black professionals.</p>
<p>But they added a statistical argument and illustrated it with an analogy to parking spaces for handicapped drivers drawn from a forthcoming article by Thomas J. Kane. "Eliminating the reserved space would have only a minuscule effect on parking options for non-disabled drivers," Kane writes. "But the sight of the open space will frustrate many passing motorists who are looking for a space. Many are likely to believe that they would now be parked if the space were not reserved."</p>
<p>Bowen and Bok point out that if more than half of the blacks accepted at selective colleges had been rejected, the probability of acceptance for another white applicant would rise only 2 percent, to 27 percent from 25 percent.</p>
<p>In other words, like handicapped parking spaces, race-conscious admission policies have a major impact on the minority group in question whereas eliminating them would only marginally help members of the majority community.
[/quote]
The vast majority of students aren't affected at all by preferential admission policies.
[quote]
The authors' focus on selective universities illustrates what they consider an often-ignored point: the debate over race-conscious admissions is relevant only to about 25 percent of American universities. The rest take all or nearly all who apply.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Washington Post Article - "Another bend in the Shape of the River" by Stephan Thernstrom has a less sanguine view.
<a href="http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_washpost-another_bend_in_the_.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_washpost-another_bend_in_the_.htm</a>
[quote]
No racial preferences are given in state bar examinations, however, and the results there suggest that racial double standards in admissions do not remedy the educational deficiencies that led to their adoption. Over the past two decades, between 57 percent and 70 percent of the blacks who took the New York and California bar exams each year failed, as compared with 18 to 27 percent of whites.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It really comes down to: What type of society do we want to be?
Private Colleges have the right to shape their classes the way they want to.
The Admissions Process is not a magic box with GPA's EC's SAT's being put in one side and an admitted class being pushed out the other side.</p>
<p>we should **** about legacy and AA. stick w/ what u got and make the best out of it. undergrad ain't THAT important. when u r 89 yrs old and waiting to die, u would laugh at ur mad attitude towards AA at an earlier age. HYP ain't gonna bring u happiness. who really gives a damn about where YPU go?!!! when u tell others u got in yale, thye may be like "WOW!", but they actually get jealous and be mad about themselves, u think thye really think u r smart as hell? NO! they try to convice themselves that they are better than u even if they didnt go to yale. remember this: self-actualization: ur goal of life</p>
<p>Why Yale Favors Its Own
November/December 2004
Yale University President Rick Levin '74PhD was interviewed by Kathrin Lassila '81, a daughter of two Yale PhDs
<a href="http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2004_11/q_a.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2004_11/q_a.html</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
But the pool of legacy applicants is substantially stronger than the average of the rest of the pool. The grades and test scores of the legacies we admit are higher than the average of the rest of the admitted class, and the legacies that matriculate achieve higher grades at Yale than non-legacy students with the same high school grades and test scores.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What objection can you have to the admission of obviously qualified students?</p>
<p>GentlemanandScholar, URMs graduate at much lower rates (10% or more below that of whites and Asians) at most top public schools (like Michigan and UC's) and non-grade inflated private schools like Cornell.</p>
<p>At LAC's and grade-inflated privates, the discrepancy in graduation rates is not as apparent since grade-inflation tends to mask underachievement by giving everyone high grades.</p>
<p>Not that I don't believe you (honestly), but just because you say it doesn't make it so. That might be correct, but unless you say ____did a study and found that.... then I can't just take your word for it. I'd hope that you'd do that same if I said that URM graduate at a much higher rate (10%).</p>
<p>No, that's true. Someone else proved an almost perfect direct correlation between the amount of AA practiced at a school and an increase in minority (vs nonurm) dropout rates.</p>
<p>Why don't they just not mention Legacy then if the students are so qualified. I'm sure they can get to the schools on their own merits. They shouldn't even include the fact that their parents went to the school. I'm against AA AND Legacy. Some of you guys are hypocrites. btw, if I get into harvard's MBA program, my kid will have to get in the same way I did. not because I'll be well connected or have graduated from the school. hypocrites</p>
<p>Hmmm..........I'm going to assume for a moment that most of you are about to apply for college and say this: stop complaining about legacy admissions and affirmative action. Honestly, with all the time you all spend on here complaining about how unfair the college admissions process, you all could probably jump 5% on you're class standing.</p>
<p>I really hope you guys don't think that any part of the college admissions process is supposed to be fair, because if you do, you're in for a rude awakening. And its not just AA...everything is rigged one way or the other. You may as well start asking if a person's inherent intelligence should be an admissions factor, since that like skin color isn't chosen.</p>
<p>My advice (as a graduating senior who got into Dartmouth, Cornell, JHU, WashU and UMichigan) is that all of you work as hard as you can, do the things you love and do them well, eat breakfast before your tests, fill out your applications as best as you can, send them in, relax, shut up, and sit down. Everything else will work itself out.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You may as well start asking if a person's inherent intelligence should be an admissions factor, since that like skin color isn't chosen.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Intelligence is RELEVANT to a college campus. Skin pigment isn't.</p>
<p>ponderosa, I agree with you....</p>
<p>I say we do away with legacy AND AA. Seriously, let's just make it all about merits, not anything else that you have no control over. A person has no control over where their parents went to school and have no control over the color of their skin.</p>
<p>I guess people who support AA and legacies are just afraid that their resumes can't stand up on their own.</p>
<p>""I really hope you guys don't think that any part of the college admissions process is supposed to be fair, because if you do, you're in for a rude awakening. And its not just AA...everything is rigged one way or the other. You may as well start asking if a person's inherent intelligence should be an admissions factor, since that like skin color isn't chosen.""</p>
<p>That's like saying "the government is corrupt, deal with it." It takes a bigger man to stand up and cry out against injustice.</p>
<p>""My advice (as a graduating senior who got into Dartmouth, Cornell, JHU, WashU and UMichigan) ""</p>
<p>Good for you.</p>
<p>um, getting into umich is not somehing to be proud of</p>
<p>Uh...getting into their honors program from out-of-state is, and I'm certainly proud of getting into schools where 85%+ of RD applicants were rejected.</p>
<p>Injustice????? How is being granted an opportunity injustice. And at the expense of what...were talking about 7-10% of these student bodies are URM. Even if AA were eliminated, and that percentage went down to maybe 2-5%, the chance that the poor exploited white middle-class male will be admitted will go up impercevibly.</p>
<p>Excuse me, but my resume, which harbors achievements that little boo-hoo's like skierdude1000 could only dream of, stands quite well on its own. And I'm especially proud of my achievemnts, since most of them are not common amongst Black males. Beyond that, my GPA and test scores lie either in the middle of, or well above of those of admitted students at the schools I got into.</p>
<p>Maize & Blue, skin color is relevant on a college campus, just as it is relevant in any other segment of life. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying, naive, or just plain ignorant.</p>
<p>Let me return to my larger argument, which was spectacularly not gotten by most of you. The energy you expend shouting at the wind about a college admission policy that has been wildy successful could be better spent bettering yourselfs. Let those who are offered opportunity get opportunity.</p>
<p>Interesting article from Yale Daily News
<a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=28424%5B/url%5D">http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=28424</a>
[quote]
The former admissions officer was careful to note, however, that he thinks "99.9 percent of an entering class at Yale deserves to be there" and that development kids comprise just four or five members of each class. But Yale relies on donations, the former officer said, and admitting students who are more likely to contribute or have their families contribute is essential to the University's livelihood.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[Quote]
Quote:
You may as well start asking if a person's inherent intelligence should be an admissions factor, since that like skin color isn't chosen.</p>
<p>Intelligence is RELEVANT to a college campus. Skin pigment isn't.
[/quote]
She said inherent intelligence, as in a person who was born with a high aptitutde in comparison with one who works hard all their life.</p>
<p>lol...i'm a he.</p>
<p>im sorry... UMich honors college is not that hard to get into.....</p>
<p>Article from the Cornell Law Review discusses recent court cases involving College Admissions. By Marcia G Synnott
<a href="http://organizations.lawschool.cornell.edu/clr/synnott.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://organizations.lawschool.cornell.edu/clr/synnott.pdf</a></p>
<p>Interesting reading.</p>