Affirmative Action has gone too far

Applying to College
1

I was just procrastinating by reading the “decisions” threads on some of the more selective schools.

What’s sad is after reading their initial “accepted” or “denied” and their test scores/EC etc, you can predict if the applicant was an URM with stunning accuracy.

From the looks of things Princeton, Harvard, and Columbia look like they completely sold themselves out for minority enrollment (especially Pton). Are these schools trying to put together the best class in the nation or a rainbow? I just can’t beleive the extent to which it’s being practiced. It’s not being used as a tipping point in marginal cases; it’s being used as a sledgehammer on the scale. Kids are getting in that would have had no prayer as a non-URM. Kids are getting in that would have had no prayer as an non-URM even if they improved their SAT 200 points and all their SAT II’s 100 points.

2

<p>Is this to say you don't believe privilege and lack of discrimination is likely to produce an extra 200 points on the SAT?</p>

3

<p>...and that's a fair comparison because every non-URM is white and wealthy and experiences no discrimination, while every URM is poor and beaten Rodney King style regularly.</p>

<p>Regardless, I think giving them that 200 points perpetuates racism and inequality.</p>

4

<p>Top schools give everyone poor a nudge. They give the same to athletes, prodigies, employee children and legacies. Who's left? Only us privileged private school kids with every advantage are expected to be perfect. Is that fair? Maybe.</p>

5

<p>Uhh, 200 extra points does not prepetuate racism. Well, I guess it kinda does if conservative bitter people dislike URMs because they're getting extra points in the admissions process. I don't think that a URM with parents that graduated from college, are rich, and had no hardships would get extra points. Don't asians and white students get extra points for having hardships too? I doubt any college would ignore the fact that someone, regardless of ethnicity, can overcome tough stuff. At least, they shouldn't ignore it.</p>

6

<p>"Kids are getting in that would have had no prayer as an non-URM even if they improved their SAT 200 points and all their SAT II's 100 points."</p>

<p>I think that people tend to see what they want to see when they look at the accept/rejection lists. I also think that when some individuals who lack character are disappointed, they tend to scapegoat other groups of people instead of considering their own flaws or attributing their lack of success to bad luck.</p>

7

<p>
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Top schools give everyone poor a nudge.

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</p>

<p>That's besides the point. URM's aren't getting a nudge. Like I said before, they're getting a huge advantage that's about as discrete as a white elephant in the room.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Uhh, 200 extra points does not prepetuate racism

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</p>

<p>You don't think the other kids at these schools know they had to be perfect, but the URM sitting next to him didn't? Who are you going to want in your group project? The URM who can deliver an ohh-so-lively first hand account of racial profiling, or a fellow non-urm who had to be perfect?</p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't think that a URM with parents that graduated from college, are rich, and had no hardships would get extra points.

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</p>

<p>Wrong</p>

<p>
[quote]
Don't asians and white students get extra points for having hardships too? I doubt any college would ignore the fact that someone, regardless of ethnicity, can overcome tough stuff. At least, they shouldn't ignore it

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</p>

<p>Yes, they do, but it's nothing like what you get for being a URM. Why not base 100% of affirmative action on socio-economic factors? Why does being of a certain race make you so intrinsically different than the non-URM beside you? Why does the rich black kid deserve the huge boost while the poor asian gets the little nudge?</p>

<p>
[quote]
I think that people tend to see what they want to see when they look at the accept/rejection lists. I also think that when some individuals who lack character are disappointed, they tend to scapegoat other groups of people instead of considering their own flaws or attributing their lack of success to bad luck

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</p>

<p>Adressing the arguer - not the argument! A cunning (and valid) plan, indeed! Actually, I'm a disinterested third party. I really have nothing at stake. I've never applied to any of the schools in question and I never will. Try again - ad hominem, take two.</p>

<p>
[quote]
they tend to scapegoat other groups of people instead of considering their own flaws

[/quote]
Yes, it's not like they have a reason or anything. That URM who showed less inititiative and did worse in tests/gpa/etc deserved it more solely in virtue of his skin color. To claim otherwise would be "scapegoating." You've sold me!</p>

<p>
[quote]
I also think that when some individuals who lack character are disappointed, they tend to scapegoat

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</p>

<p>You mean like if when people try to disprove someone elses theory by attacking them instead of their argument?</p>

<p>
[quote]
I think that people tend to see what they want to see when they look at the accept/rejection lists.

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</p>

<p>I see numbers. I see some numbers that are much lower with acceptances. What do you see?</p>

8

<p>These affirmative action debates never lead anywhere.</p>

<p>Are rejected whites/asians looking at URM's as scapegoats for their own rejections or are URM's using historical racism as a scapegoat for their own lack of initiative/hardwork? Should we base affirmative action on race or on economic background?</p>

<p>Who knows. There's my $0.02.</p>

9

<p>"Adressing the arguer - not the argument! "</p>

<p>OK: I have looked at accept/rejection lists that are posted on CC, and I don't see the disparities that you see. I also am an alum interviewer for an Ivy, and actually see a lot of Ivy applicants' stats and also interview them. I haven't seen URMS get an advantage or Asians/whites be at a disadvantage when it comes to my Ivy.</p>

<p>I also think that one can't look at things posted on a website and get an idea of what an applicant really has to offer. The numbers aren't everything. Interviews, essays, recommendations, leadership, SES and other variables (legacy, parental educational background, area where one lives, school) all can count a great deal in admissions.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, if URMs got an automatic 200 point advantage, why is it that I know URMs with SAT scores ranging as high as about 1540 who were rejected by Ivies? And if whites/Asians are at such a disadvantage, how is it that I have seen such people posting about Ivy acceptances on this board with SAT scores in the 1300s?</p>

10

<p>I really have to take Maize&Blue22's side on this one. As a liberal, I used to be pro-Affirmative Action--until I actually visited this site and realized that there are way too many people who are taking advantage of the situation. Similarly, I know of a senior who was admitted to Stanford; he had a horrible SAT score, no worthwhile ECs and had a relatively low GPA. His advantage: ethnicity. Now this certain student was relatively rich with no socio-economical problems.
He lived in the conservative suburbs of Los Angeles--imagine the outcry. </p>

<p>ps: nice catch on the logical fallacy.</p>

11

<p>The non-URM in the 1300's is the exception to the rule (w/ extraordinary accomplishments etc). The URM in the 1300's is the rule.</p>

<p>Are you really sure you want to take the position that URM's aren't getting a huge boost?</p>

<p>
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The numbers aren't everything

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</p>

<p>Nope, but they get the ball rolling. Why is it that the ball rolls so much easier for URMs? Look at the Harvard decision thread. A girl with 5th generation legacy got rejected with nearly the same numbers as a girl who posted a few hours before her. The second girl was URM and accepted.</p>

12

<p>I go to a high school that practices AA and lets in URMs with lower scores than others here have. Who would I want for a group project? In all honesty, many of my URM peers who are here on full scholarships. Most seem to have a tenacity and hunger that is absent from my peers who grew up with every advantage. What it took for them to get here makes us all humble.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
I go to a high school that practices AA and lets in URMs with lower scores than others here have. Who would I want for a group project? In all honesty, many of my URM peers who are here on full scholarships. Most seem to have a tenacity and hunger that is absent from my peers who grew up with every advantage. What it took for them to get here makes us all humble.

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</p>

<p>Once again - that's not a good argument. It assumes that all URM's are dirt poor fighting their way out of oppression. It's just not true. I agree that people who have overcome huge obstacles deserve a boost. Why not AA based on overcoming poverty? Why AA based on race? Are you saying the two are synonomous?</p>

<p>Now answer me this: why should your school accept URM's with lower scores just because they are URM? Why does the rich black kid "with every advantage" deserve the boost? What is fundamental about their skin color (and only their skin color) that entails they should get in (because of their skin color)? </p>

<p>I would submit that their skin color didn't cause the tenacity and hunger you describe, and that same teancity can be found in non URM's, as well.</p>

14

<p>blah. And what makes the struggle of first generation asians with very little money (no computer or car etc) any less difficult? If anything, it is MUCH harder. Sure 3 generations ago, AA would have been a good idea. But now, AA just shows that URMs have the right to an easier ride, while poor people/ first gens/ asians have to work their butts off.</p>

15

<p>Im not going to read this post any further, because this debate/rave is cliche and pointless.</p>

<p>BUT, I applied to two Ivies, Yale and Princeton and I am Black.</p>

<p>Princeton (the so-called worst, according to you) did not accept me.
Yale did.</p>

<p>I find it interesting, because I have a white friend who:
1.) Has lesser SAT scores (1370 vs. 1450)
2.) Has lesser ECs
a.) She went to Girls' State and was elected to a lesser position than I was at Boys' State
b.) She spent much time with Mock Trial, but I was a successful athlete/captain in three sports
3.) Did more poorly on all APs tests than I (2 on Chem, 4 on Stat)</p>

<p>We both took almost identical courses. There only true differences between us is sex, and our applications.</p>

<p>Conclusion: There are so many factors that effect their decision, and each and every factor exists for a reason. Don't waste your time questioning it, because it wont get you anywhere. Life will go on, you will still go to a fine college, and live successfully. You wont be out on the gutter, or trapped in a socio-econimic mess because you got into your #3 choice instead of your #1.</p>

<p>Everything exists for a reason. You may not understand or see it now, but that doesnt surprise me.</p>

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<p>You just mentioned your white friend; you didn't elaborate upon her success or demise.</p>

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<p>Affirmative action isn't really fair IMO, but also IMO i think ive leagues want kids that have accomplished soo much with the resources they have available to them. So if there is a URM who has accomplished a lot compared to others at their school or in their condition, then it will be more appealing, than a non-URM that only did just enough. Plus, you can't really see information like this from the posts of the decisions threads......on those posts all people put are their numbers.....so, u can't really come to the conclusion that they were admitted only b/c of their race....just my opinion......</p>

18

<p>
[quote]
I applied to ... Yale ... I am Black ... Yale accepted me

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Personally, I don't think you would have if you were white ;) You see how that works? All I'm asking is why we should tolerate that type of system. You build an argument about a single case (not a good sample size) and you don't even give a conclusion (where did she get in?). The fact remains URM's get in with less credentials across the board. Your anecdote doesn't contradict fact.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There are so many factors that effect their decision

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Yes, but their scores are universally lower, and we generally think that gpa, test scores, strength of schedule, etc are the most imporant factors. Their mitigating factor is their skin color. All I ask is how that is relevant.</p>

<p>
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Everything exists for a reason. You may not understand or see it now, but that doesnt surprise me.

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</p>

<p>I wish I had your omniscience to understand the deep-rooted majesty of AA. Why don't you tell me why it is good and not just tell me "it is" so there must be a good reason. </p>

<p>So we should not question because "it is as it is," right? Slavery, Jim Crow, the Third Riech were as they were, no?</p>

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<p>its funny no on ever criticizes legacies...they don't do anything but get born into the "right" family, just like urm's are born into a "urm" family</p>

20

<p>I only commented on her successes/demises in comparison to me. It would take all day to go into every detail, but I know her fairly well and how her accomplishments compare to mine. We are fairly equal, differing mostly in the ways pointed out in my earlier post.</p>

<p>essential the differences between me and her are hidden in:</p>

<p>SAT scores (Me > Her)
ECs (This one is fairly close...our ECs are different)
Boys' State/Girls' State (I feel my success here was my hook...she went to girls state too, but wasnt nearly as successful there)
Sex (URM vs. Caucasian)
Race (Male vs. Female)</p>

<p>Obviously, I cant account for differences in these:</p>

<p>Interview
Essays
Recs</p>

<p>Dont know what else you would want to know.</p>