From #30 to #53 a decade later, why does Lehigh keep falling in the rankings?
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Why does ranking matter? Lehigh statistically is a competitive school, produces successful graduates, and has great professors and a good social life. The schools from 30-60 in those somewhat arbitrary rankings are very closely ranked number wise. A few small changes will impact the rankings a bit.
Hopefully no prospective students think this means Lehigh is a worse school than it was two years ago. And certainly no respectable employer will be swayed by these numbers.
Lehigh was listed highly on best value or return on investment or something like that, also ranked well for professor teaching abilities. TBH I have no idea how most of this quantified as it is lots of subjective data.
If you fall for the allure of rankings then maybe Lehigh isnât the right school for you.
Why has Lehigh fallen so low? Well, Lehigh has a reputation as a frat heavy party school where there is alot of drinking. That reputation is well known and well deserved. What is not well known however is how startingly severe the drug problem has become and how it has infiltrated not just its Greek system but also its D1 athletics programs. This situation has led directly to Lehighâs precipitous drop in the rankings. It is not difficult to discern that this issue has accounted for a drop in Peer Assessment Scores and significantly lowered graduation rates. The school has taken no meaningful action against this. Sure, theyâve served up a few frats and sororities and given them the boot and upped its policing ON CAMPUS which has only increased the drug and alcohol use OFF CAMPUS where it has shifted to a gang infested slum of East Bethlehem. The situation remains dangerous and quality students are choosing to go elsewhere.
This is my first post but I am very curious about the drug problem at Lehigh. This is my DD top choice of schools. It has always had a work hard play hard motto but drugs were not an issue. Most graduates went onto successful careers. If you have more information this would be helpful. We donât mind having a Greek system but do not want to have drugs and other issues. I appreciate any feedback you may have
@foreal Iâm curious as to why you copy/pasted from another userâs post from 5 years ago? See below.
As per that thread, kids at Lehigh arenât more involved with drugs than at other schools. From personal experience, I never saw ANYONE doing any kind of drugs during my time there. Alcohol is another storyâŠ
I donât think Lehighâs decline in the ranking has to do with drugs or alcohol. Those factors arenât part of the formula. I think it has more to do with Lehigh not playing the âgameâ as well as other schools.
But in an age where colleges live or die by the rankings, you either play the game or go the unranked route.
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I havenât looked at specific ranking components in detail. My D and I visited in March. Lehigh is definitely trying to curtail on campus parties, whether in dorms or frats. This has pushed parties off campus. Further there is not enough on-campus housing, so a substantial proportion (35%) of juniors and seniors live off-campus. Students told us much of the parties and drinking, etc. are in these off-campus apartments, and are available any night of the week. But with all of this said, it does not appear, based on Clery reported numbers for alcohol and drugs, that Lehighâs results are out of line, in fact they are much lower than Bucknellâs, for example. But, the relatively low rate of alcohol and drug violations at Lehigh could be because much of the partying has moved off campus, where itâs less likely to be found out.
There is also significant tension on campus between administration and Greek Life, our tour guide said he wasnât allowed to talk about it, or answer any questions about it. There have been 4 greek chapters suspended in the last 18 months or so. One is a sorority, which absolutely deserved to lose their charter for poor conduct. The number of women not getting bids during rush was about 23% (2017 - 68/300 PNMs dropped out or didnât get bids), which is high relative to peer schools. The number of girls not making the cut will likely be higher for at least the next two years, as there will be one less sorority recruiting, (assuming the number of PNMs stays the same). Those are not good numbers for women who would like to join a sorority.
So all in all, my D loved the campus, thinks the academics are great, but the state of Greek Life and surrounding tension, crackdown on on-campus parties, as well as so many kids living off campus, has moved Lehigh pretty far down her list, which is too bad. I am not sure though if any of these factors has led to a ratings drop thru the peer evaluation piece or not. And frankly, with all of these issues, the least important is their drop in rankings.
Drugs are a problem at every campus, donât let anyone fool you into thinking it is a lehigh specific problem.
Drugs/drinking does not make a school go down in rankings, if so then Tulane/Bucknell wouldnât be in the top 500 - trust me. Itâs because other schools play stupid games that USNWR makes them play.
@Mwfan1921 My student is a current tour guide and a sorority member; the guides are instructed to not identify which sorority they are affiliated with (which is the standard on any number of campuses), but they do indeed talk about their affiliation, along with the other clubs or sports they participate in. As for recruitment, you are painting an inaccurate picture. Very, very few PNMs are released or do not match; the vast majority withdraw when they are not open-minded about all eight NPC groups participating in primary recruitment. All offer an excellent Greek experience as you no doubt know. For this academic year there is far less tension between the admin and Greek Life, unlike the climate at schools like Michigan, Wisconsin and other schools known for robust Greek life. Last March you may have been unaware of Lehighâs Path to Prominence which in addition to a new College of Health and other academic and student life buildings/refurbishments include 750 new freshmen/soph beds at the âBridge Westâ dorms under construction now and slated to open Fall 2020 and âSouthside Commonsâ a new 426-bed apartment style building for juniors, seniors and graduate students that will open in July 2019. This is, in fact, a very exciting time to be at Lehigh as a living/learning environment. And, if you decide to pay a visit this fall, DM me and will connect you to my student.
@higheredmom Thank your reply and the invitation to connect D19 with your D, I appreciate that. I am familiar with Lehighâs Path to Prominence and the addition of the College of Health. All very impressive.
Regarding our experience on our visit, again, D loved so much about Lehigh. But, the Greek Life feedback concerned her. Our male tour guide, who was in a fraternity, said he could not talk about or answer questions about anything related to Greek Life. The group asked about AXO losing their charter, Greek vs. non-Greek divide, etc. and same (no) answer. But, at the end after most people left, he said he believes the admin wants to do away with frats/sororities, and referenced all the new rules re: ban on hard alcohol, reduced hours for frat bbqs, and required guest lists for parties. He also disparaged the behavior of sorority members during their recruitment process and towards non-Greeks. Later, another male fraternity member that we met in one of the sports facilities had similar feedback. So, seemingly lots of tension, and while there is Greek Life tension at many campuses, I think itâs magnified with Lehigh having a relatively small campus, high proportion of Greek Life participants, and lots of news surrounding 4 houses losing their charters/being suspended in the last 18 months or so.
Further, as Lehigh grows in student numbers (to 7,000ish) over the next several years, it will be more competitive to join a sorority. In 2017, 68 of 300 (23%) PNMs did not finish the process: 47 dropped out of their own accord, 11 were released, and 10 unmatched. While I understand that perhaps some of those 47 women were disappointed in their remaining choices, the reality is had they stayed in the process, most would have been released or unmatched, simply due to the numbers, as there wasnât excess capacity of anywhere near 47 women. And thatâs when there were 9 sororities, now there are 8, so something like 25-35 fewer women will get bids this year.
For right or wrong, all of these facts surrounding Greek Life have impacted my Dâs feelings of her potential fit at Lehigh. We will see how this all ends up and again, I appreciate your feedback and offer to connect our Ds.
Considered statistically, it might be worthwhile to view Lehigh by its overall score in U.S. News. In comparison to the schools that currently place in a tie for 30th (NYU, UCSB and UNC), Lehigh, at 53rd, registers at only nine points off by overall score (62 compared to 71 for the group at 30). Lehighâs apparent change in rank appears at least partly due to the distribution density of schools in this zone.
@mwfan1921 Lehigh is managing risk and liability, and while I can appreciate that the young man you spoke to feels that Lehigh is âtrying to get rid of Greeksâ that is simply untrue. Lehigh is not about to condone or look the other way when the law is violated for underage drinking especially given the tragedies at campuses like Penn State and Lafayette which felt a little too close to home for many with Lehigh connections.
And, as for the 47 PNMs who voluntarily withdrew, MANY of those women declined bids â and had they maximized their options, quota range would have been higher. So, it is untrue to presume that 25-35 women will not get bids this year. Quota has been in the mid 30s in the not so distant past. I have no idea what you mean by âexcess capacityâ as primary quota would have been higher and secondary as well. As for the closed sorority chapter, the tour guide was correct to not conjecture or gossip about that groupâs activities. The sanctions speak for themselves. And, as for the Path to Prominence, the increase in students will be decidedly more International, diverse and first gen â demographics that are traditionally less likely to affiliate with NPC and NIC groups â so again, to presume that the increase in students will ramp up demand for Greek affiliation is incorrect. Now, you could similarly make the caseâshould demand for Greek affiliation increase â that the campus will open for extension and I can assure you that any number of closed chapters or new groups would respond enthusiastically to that Bulletin.
Wow . . .just to give some perspective. One of my kids thought that Lehigh was gorgeous, loved the academics, but found the Greek scene impossible to get past.
This discussion shows that her estimation of what the Greek scene entailed was way lower than it actually is. The words typed in @higheredmom 's post look like a foreign language â note that I didnât say âGreek to meâ â so much restraint.
The point is that if Lehigh wants to attract students, this sort of reputation has got to be curtailed. It is a big turn off to a lot of potential students.
Itâs not just this family, but others that Iâve spoken too. The âSMHâ that comes over a number of perspective students when it comes to the disconnect between the lovely campus and strong academics - and then the debilitating party scene.
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Dartmouth has a similar rep for lovely campus, strong academics, and a crazy party scene but they arenât dropping in the rankings. I think there is more to it than this.
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For many years, on lists that rank Greek life and party scenes, Lehigh has been at or near the top. I always found that odd due to the size of the school, as in I canât imagine the party scene being crazier than large state Us (Penn State, FSU, ASU to name a few). Professionally, I know bankers and Big 4 CPAs working in Philly / NYC that have gone to Lehigh to recruit and typically would tell me âGreat school, smart kids, huge Greek lifeâ. In reality Iâm sure virtually everything (party wise) that happens at Lehigh happens at most schools. Maybe the issue is that as a relatively small school, what other things are there to do. I imagine similar things are said about Bucknell and lots of small schools in the NE.
Someone on another thread said that the detail behind Lehighâs USNWR 62 points showed a decline in the peer review section. If thatâs true (I donât pay for USNWR access), I think that decline would be based more on non-academic factors such as the ones discussed on this thread. IMO Lehighâs academics are great, as such, peer reviewers might be more likely to take issue with the party scene, drug use, Greek Life tension and large proportion of students living off-campus (relative to similarly sized schools).
These 47 women did not decline bids, they voluntarily withdrew DURING the process, I expect most of them didnât like their remaining choices. 11 women were released during the process (no interested sororities), 10 unmatched on bid day (perhaps some of these 10 declined bids). The end result is that 23% of PNMs (68 of 300) did not pledge a sorority, which is a high number. And again, those numbers are from 2017, when there were 9 sororities. https://studentaffairs.lehigh.edu/sites/studentaffairs.lehigh.edu/files/offices/ofsa/docs/Assessment/Panhellenic%20Recruitment%202017.pdf
I donât understand how quotas can be higher, as the 8 sororities are currently at their residential maxes. Should even more students move off-campus to make room in the sorority houses?https://studentaffairs.lehigh.edu/sites/studentaffairs.lehigh.edu/files/offices/ofsa/docs/trendanalysis/Statistics%20and%20Trend%20Report%20Spring%202018_1.pdf
It will be interesting to see what happens this January with rush and only 8 sororities. Further, itâs reasonable to expect that with the projected increase in students, 500 for the College of Health alone, that more women will rush as total students numbers increase. Lastly, I would also be interested in your source for the projected makeup of new student growth
Perhaps true, but this statement shows how segregated and troublingly exclusive Lehighâs Greek System is.
@Mwfan1921 My data is based on 2018 formal recruitment RFM reports â 8 sororities, not nine. Eight sororities participated in Jan 2018 formal recruitment; nine participated in Jan 2017 recruitment. I am speaking to the most current formal recruitment data which is a different year than the Lehigh pdf you posted. Quota has NOTHING to do with the ability to house members ; if you want a primer on how Quota is established consult the NPC Manual of Information for a good over view â campuses also have flexibility in terms of a quota range, (e.g. 26 -33) but again, quota has nothing to do with the #beds available in a chapter facility. And the increase in the demo of college students is the trend on nationwide, not just at Lehigh.
Itâs pretty clear what happened when a thread that starts with a question about a drop in rankings turns into
a full-out discussion of Greek life. A disproportionate number of Lehigh threads turn out this way. The school is inextricably linked with it. While there are positives, an out-of-balance Greek social scene is an anachronism with a lot of negative connotations. The administration knows this and is taking action when justified. USNWR ranking peers know this too and rank lower accordingly.
I believe Lehigh owed itâs higher ranking in years past mostly to its excellent engineering program and the hard working and talented students it attracted. Sometime in the â80âs, that changed. The focus turned more to the business program, social life and athletics (work hard, party hard). So, the type of students, while still talented, has changed. Lehigh has became a somewhat more well rounded university academically but has lost the niche it had. There are a lot of really good schools very similar to it now and it has to share the rankings with them.
I think itâs still a great school. After all, itâs about what YOU make of the opportunities it gives. Iâd like to see it back in the top 50 again. Itâs not going to be up there with the Ivies and some others but shouldânt be that far behind.
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@SonofAsa1 I keep reading about the party scene and that continues to turn us away. Is the alcohol, drugs, weekend partying or all of the above.
I canât honestly tell you since I graduated a very long time ago. As with many schools, thereâs probably some exaggeration but stillâŠwhere thereâs smoke thereâs fire.
I really believe the tragic Piazza case at Penn State and student death at Lafayette (last year?) have been a wake up call and Iâm glad to hear the administration is taking a hard line. Itâs not an easy situation to fix. Some alumni and current students get mad and trot out the same old justification/ victimization lines. Wonât do any good though. No school is willing to risk the liability in this climate. Even mighty Penn State was put through the ringerâŠjustifiably so.
As a Greek alum and parent of two (one current) Greek students, I can tell you that there is still a vibrant party scene at Lehigh, although the current admin is trying everything in the book to cut down on partying. It is pretty sad, actually, since they have a nasty habit of overreacting to every crisis, which forces even worse, unintended consequences. This is why the party scene moved off campus in the 90âs, when they cracked down on the on-campus fraternities and had all of their bars removed (yes, back in the day we were on tap 24/7). Fast forward to today, and they are still attempting to stifle the behavior (and freedoms) of students who are incredibly bright, talented and hard working, but want to have fun and socialize how and when THEY want to, not how and when the University dictates. I donât know how it will turn out for Lehigh, but I can tell you that Greek life has been incredibly enriching for me, both during and after Lehigh, and it has been for my kids as well. It is too bad to hear some people say the party or Greek scene turns them away from on otherwise great school in almost every other way⊠in fact, many, such as my own kids, specifically sought schools that offer the best of all worlds - top notch academics, incredibly loyal alumni (which makes for great networking), great career services and placement stats and employer reputation, AND a great social scene as well! While some might consider this a minus, but some consider it a huge plus. There is a certain type of generally extroverted, social student that is attracted to this. Others have come to Lehigh very quiet and shy, and still fit right in (college should be all about new experiences and maybe discovering someone within yourself you never knew existed, no?). In âreal lifeâ after college, the social skills Lehigh students graduate with are palpable, and highly sought after by employers, especially where social interaction is important (consulting firms, etc.) Basically, that is Lehighâs niche. Some love it, some donât. Outsiders donât always understand it, especially those who have preconceived notions (mostly based on what theyâve heard or read, not experienced) that Greek life or partying is a very bad thing.
Drugs? They are available on any college campus nationwide. Ultimately you have to trust your kids will be smart and do the right thing. I have asked my kids, who are/were very active on campus, not just in Greek life, but also sports clubs, and honors and academic societies about the accusations that drugs are rampant at Lehigh, and they told me that is nonsense. While drugs are available on any college campus, there is no reason to believe they are any more a problem at Lehigh than anywhere else. Much has also made about there being tension between Greeks, athletes, and other students at Lehigh. One thing that is great about Lehigh is there is a place for everyone⊠there are many students at Lehigh (even with the Greek system, believe it or not), who do not drink or party, and who like to do other things. There are hundreds of clubs and activities on campus, and students can choose what they want to do on any given night. Unfortunately much of the social (party) life has become the domain of fraternities because they historically are willing to take on the risk and expense. They do not charge fees to partygoers, but there is an incredible amount of liability for being in this position, especially lately. So it is understandable why they must be selective about who they let into their parties. Some on campus view this as Greeks being âexclusiveâ, not âinclusiveâ. The reality is they are just being smart, and really have no choice. Several chapters have been dissolved over the past few years because underage students show up at their parties - after having pregamed (drinking heavily before they went out), then either passed out there or went back to their dorms and got sick and told police the last house they were at was where they drank. This led to hearings and eventual dissolution. Back in my day all fraternity parties were open to anyone, even nonstudents. This is just not possible anymore in todayâs litigious environment.
The rankings? Like any, they must be taken with a grain of salt. Many schools over the past ten years, desperate to ensure survival as demographics portend a downtrend in college age students starting about now and declining into the future, learned to game them by checking all the right boxes. Just good marketing. I have been a Consumer Reports subscriber for many years, but I have been stuck with a few not-so-great purchases of top-rated products. Caveat emptor. The rankings are great tools, and should supplement a careful investigation of any school your child is interested in, but they will not substitute for your own personal campus visit, talking to current and future students, and professors.
And outcomes? My kids both already had full time job offers with Big Four firms in NYC by the end of their summer internships prior to beginning their senior year. As a parent, this is one of the most important variables to judge a school by - employment after graduation and mid-career salaries. Lehigh ranks right up there with the best in these categories. In short, my kids (and I) had a great experience at Lehigh - great education, great friends, great social life, great internships, and great jobs. I couldnât have have imagined a better experience. It was just the right school for us. And that was something I never would have gleaned purely from any annual college rankings. Do your research, visit the schools, and donât jump to conclusions based on misconceptions (or rankings).