<p>One unintended bad side effect of AA is that it taints the achievements of high-achieving minorities. Clarence Thomas says not to give somebody something just cuz he's black. Then Maureen Dowd says he is cruel because he doesn't want anyone else to get the hand out he got. How can a successful minority ever prove--or even suggest!--that they deserved what they got when it is explicit policy to prefer them over non-URM (Asians and Whites.) If you don't believe that this is policy, read the "behind the scenes look at college admissions" type books.</p>
<p>Don't misread my last post. Most of the minorities in the top schools probably are well-qualified. But some have gotten a boost at the expense of others more qualified. And THAT poisons the well.</p>
<p>Agreed.</p>
<p>I'm Colombian American and I'll be going to Princeton in the fall. I seriously HATE how my achievements and strengths come into question on CC when it is known that I'm a URM. Ha! You wouldn't even know I'm a URM from just looking at me. I'm as fair-skinned as those griping about my credentials in the first place. And really, how many Hispanics do you know who have red hair, brown eyes, and light skin? And no... I swear, I'm not part Irish at all. I'm 100% Colombiano. I am fluent in Spanish and French and Italian as well. </p>
<p>Maybe my SAT I scores aren't the GREATEST (2050 composite) but I make up for that w/ my SAT IIs (800, 740, 720), high AP scores, overall academic record in the most challenging course load available to me (and a willingness/eagerness to go beyond what is available to me), my EC interests, and overall my personality (as it came through in my essays and in the personal interview). </p>
<p>Minority students should not be considered skeptically! There are many other factors besides SAT I scores that will really impress admissions officers! I believe in AA, but before you dismiss my opinion on the grounds that I'm Hispanic, take a second to be open-minded. </p>
<p>Imagine a set standard or bar (as far as scores and academics go) that ALL applicants had to meet in order to be considered for admission into the Ivies. If such were the case, those who have naturally had advantages in life - such as the luxury of private tutors, prep courses, and other preparations - would without question do very well and have the best scores. If admission were based on just that "equal" standard, how badly would diversity be impacted for that institution? Surely there are students (URM or otherwise) with lower SAT I scores who have MUCH more apart from academics to share and contribute to the social and intellectual life on even the most prestigious of campuses. It is with diversity that we are truly BEST able to reap the fullest rewards of an undergraduate education. Learning amongst people with different viewpoints, varying backgrounds, different stories to tell - that's what a strong education is made of. AA seeks to make classes so that the dynamic at institutions is truly a remarkable learning experience. I admit, AA may seem inherently "unequal" or may have some unintended bad effects, but it is the quality of the school's education and the rich social and intellectual atmosphere, that count the most in the long-run :)</p>
<p>I hope SOMEONE finds they can agree with me! If anyone disagrees, please say so - and why. Thanks in advance and congrats to everyone on getting into their colleges.</p>
<p>-Jon ;)</p>
<p>"Think for a second. 12% of this nation is black but only like 7-8% are at the top schools if that many. So really if ya want to think about it, whites are taking more than thier share of spots. Well maybe I should say Asians oh well ya get my point."</p>
<p>We're not taking their spots. It's just that more whites are more competent compared to blacks to going to schools such as Harvard, Princeton, Yale, etc.</p>
<p>those were fighting words^</p>
<p>more "competent" or better prepared by their dainty societies...</p>
<p>I don't know, rich blacks also get a massive advantage.</p>
<p>jonathan k gets the prize for hovering closest to outright racism......... </p>
<p>at this point, AA happens for one reason and one reason only: Schools believe that their campuses need a certain African-American presence just for the sake of their culture, so they're not just good ole boy institutions any more... The problem is that there aren't enough 2300-scoring, 4.0-getting blacks out there to spread evenly around all the top 25 universities, as marchballer points out. The reason for this is not that blacks are stupid or lazy, as many of you anti-AA's probably believe but are too sensible to say outright, but rather that there aren't enough blacks who go to decent schools. You've got your rich contingent out in the suburbs, and they do fine in college admissions, but they're not sufficient to provide colleges with the diversity they seek. So colleges take URM students whose grades and scores and ECs indicate intellectual curiosity and potential but not the same kind of achievement as most whites have. That's called affirmative action, and until you change the fact that colleges can't even make 8% of their classes African-African without resorting to it, you can't call it unjustified.</p>
<p>who go to decent schools.</p>
<p>Last time I checked, we do not have segregation in schools anymore. Last time I checked, blacks were reading from the same textbooks, and being educated in the same schools as white man. Blacks can fill in that application just as easily as a Caucasian American can. Okay?</p>
<p>"but rather that there aren't enough blacks who go to decent schools."</p>
<p>Wait a second, but I thought America was comprised of 28% black. Thats a lot black folk to go to university.</p>
<p>no, not "okay." if you honestly believe that the quality of education for the average white student is equal to that of the average black student, you need to reassess your own qualifications to go to any college. colleges cannot get to the point of real diversity just by accepting the black kids who actually go to well-funded suburban schools. they need the kids who go to ****hole, overcrowded, underfunded schools in cities and poor towns. </p>
<p>you need to realize the difference between legal equality and actual equality. black students are legally allowed to go to the same schools and fill out the same applications, but CAN they? can every talented black kid in NYC go to Bronx Science or Stuyvesant? I don't think so, jack. </p>
<p>as for your last comment, i am simply dumbfounded. why do you assume that all of the black people in america GO to college? why do you assume that they go to "university" and not to community college? </p>
<p>it wouldn't bother me so much if you just said "so blacks go to crap schools, shouldn't make it difference." what bothers me is that you fail to believe that they even do go to crap schools. you've got an impressive ability to disbelieve the obvious.</p>
<p>I think America is only 13% black.</p>
<p>MadeinUsa, not all blacks go to underfunded schools. I am sure many attend top high schools and boarding schools. Do not ASSUME that all blacks go to underfunded schools, friend.</p>
<p>
[quote]
On like the SAT there were only like 250 African Americans who scored a 750+ on either math or verbal in i think 2005. Now that means at the top 25 schools there would only be 20 African Americans in a class of like 2000+. Now some of those high scoring African Americans would not go to a school dominated by other ethinics and very few African Americans. Thus a small black community. So that really would be like 12 at each school. Then factor the fact that admissions to these top schools is so selective. Leaves only 8ish African Americans in a class of like 2000 students. WOW LOOK AT THAT DIVERSITY.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm one of the presumed 250! Yeah!</p>
<p>I'm thinking something about AA right now, but if I post it, I'll **** everyone off. So I'll stop typing.</p>
<p>And Justinian is correct. I am black, but my school is one of the most well funded in America (it's a national historic site, yo).</p>
<p>"MadeinUsa, not all blacks go to underfunded schools. I am sure many attend top high schools and boarding schools. Do not ASSUME that all blacks go to underfunded schools, friend."
Quoted for truth. The blacks who are going to the Ivy's are generally not from the ghettos, but rather from middle-high class families. Admissions should be on merit, taking into account FAMILY INCOME and Education level of the parents, but not race. It is downright stupid that hispanic people who achieve the same thing as a white person in the same environment would be looked at as a better candidate. And I will go ahead and say it, I believe in general that black people and hispanics are less competent to go to the best universities than Asians and white people.</p>
<p>I'm Hispanic, but I'd have to say, it's harder to find a better Hispanic candidate rather than a better White candidate (which is why Hispanics are URMs and Whites aren't).</p>
<p>justinian, i did not assume that all blacks go to underfunded schools. read both of my posts again, I say that colleges try to get their minority students from well-funded public schools and private schools but that if these were the only URMs they took, there wouldn't be enough minorities at any college for the college to be able to claim diversity. I am sure many URMS go to top boarding schools too, because two of them live right down the hall from me. They'll both go to great colleges, but you can't pretend like they aren't rare. </p>
<p>Meatlovers, you're practically making my point. I know that most URMs at top schools also went to top high schools, and I don't think that's a good thing. I think socioeconomic AA needs to be ADDED to current AA, but it shouldn't replace it. What colleges need for true diversity are URMs who differ not only by skin color but by life experience and outlook. </p>
<p>The reason that a hispanic candidate in the same school with the same qualifications as a white candidate will do better is because he probably has had a tougher road just to get into that school. My best friend, for instance, is a relatively poor Hispanic student at a top prep school. He was lucky enough to get into some state program that takes URMs and tries to get them into private schools, but he was the only one of hundreds to get into my school, which is probably the top private school in the state. He had to work his ass off for that. On the other hand, I decided to apply a few days before the deadline, and it probably didn't hurt that I have a legacy. I'm not saying that I'm not qualified to be here, but my road was a helluva lot easier than his.</p>
<p>Your rode was easier because you are more financially well-off, not because he's Hispanic.</p>
<p>I really intensely dislike affirmative action. </p>
<p>Affirmative action, as it is structured now, perpetuates racism. If you were a boss looking at two potential employees, both of whom graduated from Harvard, and one was black and one was white, would you look at the two in exactly the same light? Even though you might say you would, it's impossible to do that because everyone knows about racially-based affirmative action. It belittles the accomplishments of minorities. </p>
<p>Also, I think all admissions should be race-blind and need-aware. Why should a Hispanic kid whose parents make $2 million a year and goes to a private school be treated the same as a Hispanic kid whose parents make $20,000 a year? Obviously Hispanic #1 will have a better academic track record; he has access to excellent facilities and (potentially) tutors, while the other kid probably works to help support his family. But what about two applicants, one of whom is an affluent URM, and the other who is poor and white? Who should be admitted then?</p>
<p>I think by making such a big deal about "diversity," and emphasizing it through race, colleges are only making the problem worse. White people look at URMs who got into top schools and say "Oh, he only got in because he's black." Or "She was only waitlisted becasue she's Hispanic. She doesn't deserve to go there." And the truth is that no one knows why someone is accepted or rejected. But because race is such a tangible part of admissions, white (and asian) students latch onto it as the decisive factor, and place the whole weight of the result on the applicant's race. </p>
<p>Oh, and I've seen statistics that indicate that blacks and hispanics consistently score lower on the SATs than whites. I would love to find them, though. That test is crooked, and an indicator of nothing (only how well you take the test), though.</p>
<p>koolcrud, don't pretend to know anything about me... nowhere in my post did i claim to be financially well-off. yet it was easier for me, perhaps because i was already connected to the school through my grandfather, who went there before hispanics were even allowed. </p>
<p>kayrlis, maybe the solution is to stop assuming that black people got into college because of AA. Maybe the problem is that racist mindset, and not the policy itself. AA is actually a relatively small factor... go to collegeboard.com and look up colleges and look where it says "admissions factors." racial status is "considered" but it is neither a "very important" nor an "important" factor in admissions. just like legacy and geography.</p>
<p>AA is most definetly not a small factor....</p>
<p>Forgive me, I assumed that since you were a legacy at a prestigious school, you probably weren't living in a ghetto. Understand the idea of implied information.</p>