<p>Atleast for Colgate, they fight for the same students applying to Brown, Dartmouth, and Wesleyan. So the whole perception of caliber of students is off.</p>
<p>Just like you wouldn't guess that Amherst says it competitors are Harvard, Williams, Princeton, & Yale, when you're speaking of quality of students, they share many.</p>
<p>Colgate? Maybe they fight for similar students. But the student body isn't as strong as Brown, Dartmouths, or Wesleyans. </p>
<p>Yeah, I know Amherst, Williams, and Swarthmore are awesome schools. I applied and actually had an awesome overnight visit at the former two on the student days-on-campus last April. But most of the kids who were there (and who hadn't made up there minds already, since they were visiting) were deciding between mainly either the others out of the three or Dartmouth or Brown, but the ones who were accepted to Pton or one of the top Ivies said they had effectively made up their minds. I talked to about 15-20 other pre-fosh acceptees, since I had to make a similar decision.</p>
<p>Seems like you're basing it too much on opinions of 17-year-olds. In business and academia, there is equal recognition for same level schools.</p>
<p>Dartmouth/ Brown and Colgate have a very different admissions selectivity. </p>
<p>A hundred points doesn't seem like a lot, but actually it is. Dartmouth/ Brown/ Penn/ Columbia are on even ground with Amherst, Williams, and Swarthmore. I know that of students accepted at Dartmouth and Williams, slightly more than half choose Dartmouth. As for Colgate, I would say 90% of students would choose any of these other schools over it if money were not in issue. They are simply not at the same level.</p>
<p>Dartmouth College
Freshmen Academic Profile
Average SAT: 1432
SAT - Verbal Range (25-75%): 670-770
SAT - Math Range (25-75%): 690-780
TPR Projected Range SAT Writing: 680-740
Average Verbal SAT: 713
Average Math SAT: 719
Students in top 10% of HS class: 88% </p>
<p>Colgate
Freshman Academic Profile
Average SAT: 1341
SAT - Verbal Range (25-75%): 630-710
SAT - Math Range (25-75%): 640-720
TPR Projected Range SAT Writing: 650-700
Average Verbal SAT: 666
Average Math SAT: 675
Students in top 10% of HS class: 73%</p>
<p>DWincho, they aren't same level schools...I mean they are all great, but some are, student-wise, better than others</p>
<p>Plus, these are the seventeen year olds that are accepted into these top schools, and are the seventeen year olds that these colleges are trying to get. Their opinions count for something.</p>
<p>edit: I didn't see the above numbers, thanks</p>
<p>Those Colgate numbers look like they are several years old. Colgate's average SAT score has not been that low in at least 5 years.</p>
<p>For the class of 2009
Average SAT: 1391
SAT - Verbal Range (25-75%): 660-740
SAT - Math Range (25-75%): 670-740</p>
<p>I think those numbers are for accepted, not matriculating students</p>
<p>Colgate is fine school but not anywhere near Dartmouth, Williams, Amherst.</p>
<p>It could be that the figures slipper1234 used for Brown and Dartmout were just as out of date as those for Colgate, but for the record, Colgate 13's numbers were for Admitted students in the Class of 09. And 80% were in top 10% of their class, 93% in top 20%.</p>
<p>Not that I'm arguing either way that it's equal to Brown Amherst or Williams</p>
<p>Those numbers are all for matriculating students for the class of '08. Dartmouth and Amherst have been on average higher than brown or williams by a small margin and higher than colgate by a significant margin.</p>
<p>The 1391 colgate number is for accepted students, not matriculated.</p>
<p>in terms of job opportunities or graduate school acceptances, the top LACS are equally prestigious as the ivies. don't believe people who talk about "gotta get into" universities, or who look shocked when you say harvard isn't your top-choice; those who really matter, like grad school adcoms and corporate bosses, know that the education you receive from a strong LAC is as good, if not in some cases, better, than from a big university. but i'd also like to point out that the name of your college/university will only take you so far. you have to have the resume to back it up, and opportunities vary from person to person. i know people from smaller, less prestigious LAC's like bates who got recruited by top organisations like Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, Microsoft, World Bank as soon as they graduated, and went on to grad schools like harvard law school and stanford graduate school of business, and conversely, graduates from brown and harvard who aren't doing much. I really think it depends on how much you can make of your undergrad experience, what you choose to do with your summers, etc more than whether you attend a liberal arts college or an ivy. plus, when choosing a school you should also really consider what would be the best fit for you and where you'll be comfortable, rather than which name SOUNDS better on your resume</p>
<p>If you look at the top schools percentage-wise (per student) for admission to grad school you'll see that top LACs heavily compete with, and in many cases beat out, ivys and top publics. As far as job competition I'm guessing it would less favorable for LACs as a whole.</p>
<p>a girl in my school chose Swarthmore over Amherst, Williams, Duke, Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth</p>
<p>everyone was a lil shocked</p>
<p>Okay, so you guys who are comparing universities with LACs in a nitty-gritty fashion, where would you put Middlebury, Bowdoin, Wellesley in comparison with say, Brown and Dartmouth?</p>
<p>A thing smart students may also keep in mind is that if you are interested in grad or professional school, its better to go in around at least the top 25% of your class, so that you can make the necessary grades and get internships and stuff.</p>
<p>Overall prestige isn't everything, and it seems that all you are talking about is the prestige of the public eye. Yes, the Harvard and the rest of the Ivy league are extremely perstigious but that does not instantally gurantee great education and a graduate school acceptance. For example-grade inflation is rampant at the ivy league so it is easier to get an A. While other schools like Reed have no inflation at all and even top students have b's instead of all A's.
I guess what I am trying to say is that there are other places than the ivy league and the colleges right below them. Maybe they don't give a lot prestige to the public eye but in the academic world are extremely valued. Examples are New College of Florida and Marbo-they are rarely mentioned on CC but they do many things that graduate schools smile upon such as creating a thesis that you have to defend infront of teachers and an expert. At New college of Florida there are no grades but the teachers get to know you and actually write around a Five page paper of how you did in your class and what was the purpose of the class was since you desgin your own learning path at New College of Florida. You can sll bash me if you want but I think that colleges that you have never heard of are not as bad as you think.</p>
<p>I think a general rule is that there is some overlap among all top colleges. Students in the top 25% of Harvard, for instance, probably blast out of the water almost everyone in the top-15 LACs. But once you start to go lower down in the class at HYPS like to the average student, graduates of those schools are more comparable to the top 50% of top-10 LACs.</p>
<p>From my experience ecape, I would have to say that Bowdoin students are on par with those of Dartmouth and Brown students. Students at Bowdoin work extremely hard and really care about their education. That is the reason why there is 91% acceptance rate to med school (which include schools such as: Harvard, Yale, Mayo, UCSF, Case Western, Upenn, Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell, etc) and 85+% acceptance rate to law schools (such as: Harvard, BC, Yale, Columbia, Cornell etc). On the business side, recently a senior girl in my calculus class told me that she got a job at Goldman and Sachs. From what I can see Bowdoin pretty much matches Brown and Dartmouth.</p>
<p>runningforlife, that might be very well true, but I still maintain that I would rather attend a #10-15 or so University such as Cornell or U of Chicago than like Bowdoin or Grinell and etc, because I simply think that the name brand actually carries more importance than you are willing to admit. If name brand wasn't important and the only thing of importance was education, there would be no reason to go to Harvard. The education at Michigan, some can argue is just as good, why go to Harvard? The reason to go to harvard is b/c right after graduation, jobs will be piling open and soon as someone sees Harvard on a resume, they instantly equate the name (Harvard) with success and Harvard grads are some of the most highly sought after grads for this very reason. Bowdoin is a great school, but realistically what kind of name brand does it buy? I know ppl will respond with, grad schools know Bowdoin, but ultimately if you are not going to grad school, I still think you are at a disadvantage.</p>
<p>A lot of people seem to be focusing on investment bank recruiting as an example of prestigious organizations that focus only on grads of Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, etc. These firms also recruit grads of top LACs. Just because you've never heard of a school doesn't mean that people in positions of power haven't. As an example, here is a partial list of financial services institutions that recruited Middlebury College students last year:</p>
<p>Acadian Asset Management
Adams Harkness
American Express Financial Advisors
America's Growth Capital
Bear Stearns
Benfield
Brown Brothers Harriman & Co.
Cain Brothers
Chestnut Partners
CIBC World Markets
Citigroup
Craig Capital Corporation
Credit Suisse First Boston
DMG Securities, Inc.
First New York Securities LLC
Forecaster Capital LLC
Greenwich Associates
ING Clarion Partners
John Hancock Financial Services, Inc.
Lazard Freres & Co.
Lehman Brothers - Investment Banking
Liberty Corner Cash Management
George K. Baum & Co.
Goldman Sachs - All divisions
i-Deal.com
The Jerome Levy Forecasting Center
J P Morgan Chase and Company
Keefe Bruyette & Woods Inc.
Kellogg Group LLC
Merrill Lynch
Moore Capital Management LLC
Morgan Stanley
Mosaic Asset Management, LP
Northwestern Mutual Financial Network
Pacific Growth Equities
Partner Advisors
Philadelphia Consolidated Holding Corp.
Piper Jaffray & Co.
Price Chopper
Profit Logic
RBC Capital Markets
Summit Partners
Topwater Investment Management
Tuck Business Bridge Program
Thomas Weisel Partners LLC</p>
<p>If you are going for a "name brand" college, I would advise avoiding LACs because even the best ranked and best regarded ones simply can't compete with larger universities in that area. Its mostly a matter of size. Smaller schools will have fewer famous alumni, fewer professors doing ground-breaking work, less money to throw (total, not per person), and will be unable to field large, competitive athletic teams purely because they are smaller. Their size limits their impact on the public conscious.</p>