Lies and the application

Applying to College
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<p>This post is sincere, and not based upon cynicism, but recent observations, fact finding, and piecing together facts on HS students I know. Not all HS students are like what I describe below, but I have seen just enough of it this year to inspire me to write this post. There are thousands of brilliant honest HS students out there, but some things I have seen are disturbing. FYI, I am posting it to the Ivy/top school boards that we are applying to, to garner good positive and good feedback. </p>

<p>Well my kid just got an IVY deferral. It was quite an eye opener - you
believe in your child, you know their potential, you thought their application package would
'sell them' - but now, post ED deferral, the nagging question arises: 'did my kid not represent themselves well enough in their essays, and resume?' Which brings me to my thoughts about lying on resumes and more importantly - how admissions gets to the truth amongst a bunch of applications filled with lies.</p>

<p>I am sure admissions professionals have devised critical reading and thinking skills to protect their schools, but I am trully curious about their ability and techniques to see through applicant lies. Let me tell a quick and probably common scenario.</p>

<p>My kids resume only contains truths - things they really did. None of the hours
are padded. My kid (and we his parents) innate sense of integrity would never allow lying
or padding. </p>

<p>Background on my kid: academics are at the very top, plays 2 sports in HS, captain on 2 'intellectual clubs', some leadership, some community service, but ZERO - READ ZERO - lies or padding. By most measures they should do well in the admissions competition. But we all know, the above facts' are often given a reject in the Ivies.</p>

<p>But we came across a resume of a child we know in our town, and it had, to be frank,
a few lies in it: he/she was member of this team, founder of that club - but we know (through our child being on those teams/clubs) that this other kid never participated. Hmmmm interesting ... and distubing. </p>

<p>And then there are the kids who submitted 'Mitochondrial DNA research' (I'm making the subject for example purposes) for a prestigious national contest. But we know (because we know these kids and known them since kindergarten) that they are NOT researchers (at heart or in mind). They can play one on a resume, but they are no future researchers. It is padding on the resume, it is playing the admissions game as only 'savvy' parents can. </p>

<p>And there are parents who sent their kid to an Ivy research class for the summer, for one express purpose - to add it to a resume. To build the case for the intellectual momentum and continuity in their kids academics. </p>

<p>But it all wasn't true. Or it's a half truth. Or it is an very idealized child they are presenting on the resume. </p>

<p>Call me naive, but 'Holy *****' ! My child is competing against adult lairs and manipulators. Welcome to the world my child! </p>

<p>The only protection my child has is the ADCOM ability to do something very difficult (but hopefully not impossible) - cross reference all the facts of each kids application and find the true student in the application. I don't envy them - that is a very hard task. Admissions spends one(?) hour on a child's application and other materials before they consider sending them to the admissions committe versus rejecting them? Wow, that is a hard performance based task. </p>

<p>The only way (I can think of) admissions finding the truth in a potential pack of lies is through vigorous cross referencing. Every statement on the resume (for example) must
be cross reference somewhere ... for example: This kid participated in this prestigious academic contest - does their essay demonstrate a passion for research? Hmmm ... research at an Ivy physics summer program - sounds very intense ... but do they have a reference letter from their physics teacher that states their appitude for this subject? I guess you can go on and on with cross referencing examples. I don't know what else to think - it seems like cross-referencing has to be their main technique used by admissions. </p>

<p>My kids future is partly/greatly in the hands of admissions now - and the absolute quality, rigor, and integrity of their work now comes into my focus. </p>

<p>Yeah that 1st deferral is still stinging. Good luck to you 'admissions staff'! I'd be very interested in hearing from your on this subject, and hopefully getting your 'acceptances' this spring ;-)</p>

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<p>If the child actually did it, then it’s not a lie. A resume isn’t necessarily all the things you loved doing, just the things you did. Ideally it should be, but that’s an ideal.</p>

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<p>I take contention with this too. It (to me) sounds you’re implying your problem is that the other child did the activity but is not poised to follow up on that field. (It falls along the lines of- Does this mean I have to stop mentioning my awards for my art when I have no interest in being an art major?) Why send a Physics rec, when it’s clear you’re competing in the physics field? Why not send a teacher’s rec from a different subject to show that you can be a well-rounded student? </p>

<p>Teens aren’t all going to stay interested in one thing. That is kept in mind during admissions, and you have no way to tell if the other teens enjoy what they do or not. And if it was an activity done just for resume padding, there’s not much you can do. So long as they didn’t make up the activity, they haven’t done anything wrong.</p>

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<p>Well, I suppose the Ivies might, (my school had three readers per app, one of which was the dean, one the region rep, and one either at random or your interviewer, I imagine that might take longer, but who knows?..) but frankly the admissions process is not just one hour, no matter how you slice it. Don’t forget that interviewing <em>counts</em> as part of that application time. It is more time on your side for a reason. If you have only an hour to sell your child, within the context of several pieces of paper, it’s no wonder other parents feel it’s in their best interest to play the Ivy game, and pad the resume with tons of activities. That’s why so often the essay is so important- it’s distilled personality of your child. And the activities as well. </p>

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<p>I don’t understand why you quoted ‘admissions staff’. They know what they’re doing, and unfortunately your child got deferred. S/He still has time, however, to compete. I am sorry they got deferred, that’s never fun. However, I can’t offer you any advice, since all I’ve ever seen for defferral cases is the suggestion that perhaps the student should come up with some more awards and activites, and quick.</p>

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<p>To be honest it just sounds like you are being bitter. Those parents who sent their kids to research camps and the such did not lie at all, just because you participate in something solely for college does not mean that you lied about it. I took the ACT solely to get into a good college, but that doesn’t mean I was “lying” when I sent in my score.</p>

<p>What is really disturbing is the fact that you are so interested in what other children do and then denigrate thier accomplishments by accusing them of being liars. Being on two sports teams and being the head of two “intellectual” clubs at school don’t mean anything. I didn’t even list all the clubs I was apart of on my app because they don’t matter. </p>

<p>What matters is the stuff kids do outside of school. The people who go to Yale and the people who routinely get in are the kids who went out of thier way during the summer to do research or go to Ivy physics programs and they should be rewarded for that. </p>

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<p>It just sounds like your kid wasn’t that great and you are jealous that other kids did better. It is very immature of you to insult kids who did amazing things in high school and got a place at the Ivy they deserve to attend.</p>

<p>Btw from the point of anyone who knows what it takes to get into an Ivy, padding your resume is what you have to do to get into an Ivy, and there is not lying involved if they honestly did it.</p>

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<p>Something that is also annoying is how involved some parents are in the admissions process. My parents didn’t even know the schools I was applying to and only gave me the application money. Some parents need to calm down.</p>

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<p>Yurtle, Thanks for the comments - all good. Some points: </p>

<p>1) The ‘Good luck to you admissions staff’ comment was a simple wish for success for what looks like a daunting task done under a heavy workload and under time pressures. Bad juxtaposition with the preceding comment.</p>

<p>2) Yes, I see how critical the essay is, esp since all the schools we are applying to don’t do interviews. You better shine in that essay.</p>

<p>3) I still see a parental factory mentality used to pad resumes. Just roll a kid down the resume padding assembly line (I know it is not that simple and the kid will get something through the process). But conversely, we’ve tried to build integrity, passion, focus and discipline into our kids, not make a stuffed suit out of them. There is a difference. But for the short term relationship with admissions, we see (at times) the padded resume giving an advantage!</p>

<p>4) You said “And if it was an activity done just for resume padding, there’s not much you can do. So long as they didn’t make up the activity, they haven’t done anything wrong.”
I guess that is why 3 people read the resume at your school and do a ‘deep dive analysis’. If something feel right , you’ll find it.</p>

<p>5) You said "It (to me) sounds you’re implying your problem is that the other child did the activity but is not poised to follow up on that field. " Correct, but from what I’ve seen, they were never poised to follow up, they were positioned to look impressive. That is resume padding assembly line step #4a ;-)</p>

<p>6) I like your perception that ‘Teens aren’t all going to stay interested in one thing.’ That’s a good one and appreciate it as another question I have had is - does everyone kid have to be already involved the solving in heavy social problems of the world and starting a foundation by age 16, versus having a healthy passion in something more mundane like electronic circuitry design? </p>

<p>Thanks again for your reply .</p>

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How can you think you know whether a child who is not your own possesses those attributes? What makes you think you are that informed about even kids that you’ve known for many years? </p>

<p>There are many people who “know” my daughter outside the family and with the exception of her very best friends’, I can’t think of any parents who would know her passion or conscience. Which is as it should be. My daughter’s resume is a pretty stellar thing for a person her age and her friends were shocked when they saw it as part of a class assignment. Because it’s really none of their business. If you were another parent looking at it, you’d say “wow she does a lot” because she does, but you likely wouldn’t be able to name her passion and dreams.</p>

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You can’t know that. even the individual kids often don’t know where they will take an activity until after the fact. How many times have all our kids joined something, done well at it, and then decided that it wasn’t their life’s mission? Not that it was a worthless pursuit or a waste of time, but simply something that had successfully run its course. I know all of my kids have done that and I think it’s made them better people for the experiences.</p>

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Have you really read so many kids’ resumes that you feel you have a representative sample? Some kids have service requirements that force them to come up with something like a foundation or club, so that would be on their resumes, right? My D1 attended Catholic high school. She had service requirements. D2 attends a public IB program. She has mega requirements. If you were looking at all the resumes, you’d notice a pattern and you could either think “resume padding” or “compliance with the rules of their program.” I’m not saying padding doesn’t happen. It surely does, but what might appear to be padding to an outsider (you) might look like something else if you really knew the child and the reasons for the activities.</p>

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<p>“Btw from the point of anyone who knows what it takes to get into an Ivy, padding your resume is what you have to do to get into an Ivy, and there is not lying involved if they honestly did it.”</p>

<p>“Padding” would be inflating something to look more impressive that it actually was. Yes, that’s a form of lying even if it is mild compared to an outright falsehood like one that the OP was referring to (a child claiming to be on a team or leader of a club that they in fact, did not participate in).</p>

<p>There’s a lot of BS out there, and I would hope that the admissions people would be savvy about seeing through most of it.</p>

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<p>Admissions professionals are savvy and surely see through most of it, but it’s ludicrous for another parent to think he or she has real insight.</p>

<p>(As the backstory for my comments here, my daughter has been stalked/terrorized by a hyper-competitive parent for years and I’m very sensitive to parental overreach.)</p>

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<p>The parents on this website terrify me.</p>

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<p>zoosermom - Thanks for the reply. Okay - your child did legitimate brilliant work, I see the opposite at times - some students outright lying. To use your line - ‘You can’t know’ that I haven’t. If you accept that lying and exaggeration occurs, you see one of the ADCOM challenges.</p>

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<p>zoosermom - I am sorry to hear that story, and please understand that I am quite reasonable. This application process has just made me very aware of ‘the game’ and ‘the challenge’ of ADCOM finding the truth.</p>

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Not brilliant. Just honest and motivated. But personal at the same time. I’m not disputing that kids lie and parents push. No question about that. I’m disputing your attempt to discern others’ motivations and histories. On a larger scale, padding happens. On the personal level, we can only speak of our own kids. I just hope you are venting and talking here but not questioning real, individual children because that’s just ugly.</p>

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<p>zoosermom - This has gotten off topic as I was really trying to understand the ADCOM thought process for dealing with the subject. I’m going to stop replying to the current thread unless an ADCOM replies with some insights on how they work with this. Good luck to you and your family.</p>

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<p>I always interpeted padding your resume as doing things specifically and solely to get into college. In my personal opinion that is very legitimate whether you have an actual interest in the topic or not. It is what it takes to get into top schools. Heck some people here even had private admission consultants, admissions is a game and people want to win.</p>

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<p>imabeliever9999: Read either Acceptance or The Gatekeepers. They both talk about college admissions from the AdComs’ side, and you will learn a lot about how they struggle to discern the “real” kid behind the application.</p>

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<p>How do adcoms deal with it? I heard at one school (New college of FL) that they disregard the letters of recommendation. From their point of view, the letters are all so glowing that they become meaningless in helping to distinguish the applicants.</p>

<p>I hope that’s not true everywhere. At my girls’ HS, the teachers work very hard on their rec letters!</p>

<p>I’ve also heard adcoms say that they recalculate the GPA. They use only grades from academic classes and unweight them all. I know this is done for scholarship purposes, not sure how much it might be done for admittance. Since a 4.0 is becoming more like a 5.0, George Orwell would be happy to see the math fixed.</p>

<p>As far as items on the resume go, that should be more like icing on the cake. You want it there, but the cake is more important.</p>

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<p>Life is a game.</p>

<p>Don’t hate the player, hate the game.</p>

<p>Cheaters risk punishment for potential gains. Being honest has no risk, but it also has no gains. Honesty only matters to those who care, and lots of people do not. </p>

<p>In the “real world” loads of people get by with lies without being caught. Why should admission be any different? I respect your honesty and integrity, but take it for what it’s worth. And that’s not much if your goal is Ivy League admission. If your goal is to have people respect you and to retain integrity, then you don’t need advice from us because you’re doing well. </p>

<p>I’m sorry this sounds harsh, but this is the reality. Your son sounds like he is well qualified for many schools, and he should keep his chin up for the regular decision round. </p>

<p>My advice: Don’t lie, but look over how your son is “selling” himself in his application and consider revision.</p>

<p>EDIT: What Dbate said is completely true. People over here on the East Coast laughed when I said I didn’t have a privately hired admissions counselor. Other people are playing this admissions game hardcore and they are pouring tremendous resources into it. On the other hand, the people I know in admissions say that they have gotten pretty good at weeding out counselor-written essays.</p>

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<p>@Fastfood The only thing is, these kids didn’t cheat by taking extra ECs or doing other things. They aren’t lying, they are truly listing their accomplishments.</p>

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<p>As others have said, mere integrity will not get you into an Ivy league school. You’re new to the forum, perhaps you should look around, view the chances threads. Competition is tough and all those other kids are aware of what it takes to get admitted. Saying the kids who went through all this work to get what they wanted (and then DID) are all just stuffed suits is a little unfair. </p>

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<p>I’m confused by this statement. 3 people read my application, because I applied to a small LAC with heafty academics. I met (and even ate dinner with) all three of the people reviewing my file. I applied to a school where I didn’t need to ‘pad’ my resume with activities because my resume was just fine with the stuff I liked to do, PLENTY of which has no relation to my future job. Your son(?) didn’t have the same resume that would catch the eyes of the school, but clearly he had enough to compete with. </p>

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<p>So? I don’t see the difference between me entering a competition just because and winning and entering it with the purpose of winning and then winning. An award earned is an award earned. You are not the judge, and you can’t deem activities or awards by other children earned or not. </p>

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<p>Every future Ivy-leaguer should be. In case you didn’t read any of the school missions (or realize that increasingly, schools ask students to talk about issues globally or locally and how they affect them or the world, etc. See: Georgetwon) they often talk about the world. </p>

<p>Let’s take a quick look at a few, shall we?</p>

<p>“Yale College. The mission of Yale College is to seek exceptionally promising students of all backgrounds from across the nation and around the world and to educate them, through mental discipline and social experience, to develop their intellectual, moral, civic, and creative capacities to the fullest. The aim of this education is the cultivation of citizens with a rich awareness of our heritage to lead and serve in every sphere of human activity.”</p>

<p>“The support the College [Harvard] provides to students is a foundation upon which self-reliance and habits of lifelong learning are built: Harvard expects that the scholarship and collegiality it fosters in its students will lead them in their later lives to advance knowledge, to promote understanding, and to serve society.”</p>

<p>“Columbia University is one of the world’s most important centers of research and at the same time a distinctive and distinguished learning environment for undergraduates and graduate students in many scholarly and professional fields. The University recognizes the importance of its location in New York City and seeks to link its research and teaching to the vast resources of a great metropolis. It seeks to attract a diverse and international faculty and student body, to support research and teaching on global issues, and to create academic relationships with many countries and regions. It expects all areas of the university to advance knowledge and learning at the highest level and to convey the products of its efforts to the world.”</p>

<p>“*Our faculty, students, alumni, and staff strive toward these objectives in a context of freedom with responsibility. We foster initiative, integrity, and excellence, in an environment of collegiality, civility, and responsible stewardship. As the land-grant university for the state of New York, we apply the results of our endeavors in service to our alumni, the community, the state, the nation, and the world. *” - [Cornell]</p>

<p>They continue on, along the same vein.</p>

<p>While someone suggested Acceptence and reading The Gatekeepers, I think the books are good, but not applicable per se. The Gatekeepers follows an LAC [Wesleyan] and is much more the several reader/close-reading method. If you want to read about the Ivies, try What Colleges Don’t tell You and What high schools don’t tell you.</p>

<p>I have to agree you sound bitter, and it is painful, but it’s not over yet. Unfortunately, to win, you’ll have to play the game.</p>

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<p>OP, I think fastfood is being harsh, but there is much truth in what he(?) is saying. You certainly needn’t compromise your’s or ds’s integrity, but it is helpful to understand the admissions process/game. </p>

<p>My ds didn’t pad a thing on his resume and certainly didn’t do things (volunteer/lead a club/whatever) for the purpose of getting into college, but when it came time to apply, we did work on crafting his story. What kinds of things resonated in his activities? Community service was one as an Eagle Scout and with about 250 hours of volunteer work over three summers in an area that ended up being closely aligned with his Eagle project. That seemed like a natural area to highlight so he wrote about aspects of those things in his essays. Do you see what I’m saying? He didn’t lie about any of it; those essays and activites truly reflect who he is. The key, however, is how to present this in a succinct, memorable way that will catch the adcoms’ attention.</p>

<p>I can spot the kind of padding you’re talking about. Ds’s friend shared with him his resume. Ds shared it with me, and I immediately picked up on one – the only, really – community service project from the summer before senior year. When I pointed it out to ds as sounding out of place, he said that it was something the kid and another boy thought up so that they’d have something to put under community service. Duh! If I could spot it, I am sure an adcom could as well. This padding will work against him, not in his favor.</p>

<p>I don’t want to get in to middle of you and zmom :slight_smile: , but I can relate to some of what she says. When ds was in the paper for making Eagle this spring, several teachers congratulated him and said they didn’t know he was in Scouts. And so did friends. So, maybe the kid you’re talking about is deeper than you know.</p>

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<p>Bumping in the hopes of luring OP back for comment. :)</p>