<p>i always hear about those big law firms that give $125,000 standard starting salaries to law graduates. </p>
<p>what credentials from law school would you need to get these jobs?</p>
<p>what is the daily job schedule like? how many hours/days do you have to work?</p>
<p>and what does billable hours mean? thanks</p>
<p>All you do is work and sleep, and you don't get enough sleep.</p>
<p>to add to Greybeard's post...graduate from a top 14 law school -but you probably knew that.</p>
<p>"Billable hours" are hours that can be reasonably charged to a client. Time spent schmoozing with colleages doesn't count. Vacation doesn't count. "Continuing legal education" classes don't count. Employment reviews don't count. Going to the bathroom doesn't count. Pro bono cases don't count. Time chatting to colleagues at the water cooler doesn't count.</p>
<p>At many of the firms where they pay $125K a year to novice attorneys, figure on 2,000 billable hoyrs a year. (It's higher some places, and a little lower at others.) If you figure you'll take two weeks vacation, and don't take off at Christmas, or New Years, or the 4th of July, or Thanksgiving, or Memorial Day, or Veteran's day, and you never get sick, you'll need to bill on average 8 hours every weekday of the year, minus your two weeks of vacation.</p>
<p>Since people do take off for some of those holidays, and really can't legitimately bill all of their time, most associates working more 15 hour days than 10 hour days, and come in on a fair number of weekends.</p>
<p>So...you start at 8 in the morning and work till 11 at night?</p>
<p>You should read this:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jd2b.com/VanderbiltLawReview.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.jd2b.com/VanderbiltLawReview.pdf</a></p>
<p>It doesn't seem that these "Big Law" attorneys lead particularly meaningful or happy lives.</p>
<p>That's a fascinating article, EE. Where I live the lifestyle he describes is not all that rare. I would say, though, that I'm amazed that the author and his wife, who have a family, were both attorneys for the same firm, working on the same case. They must have been one of these families with multiple nannies...</p>
<p>Once again, the draw of whole get-into-a-T14-and-sell-your-life-to-a-biglaw-firm completely eludes me. (Then again, I remember being 19 and that gung-ho and then, I worked for several years. ;))</p>
<p>To get into a top firm, you need to be a top student from a top law firm. The biggest firms like to see top 10 or 15% in your class from a Top 10-15 law school. </p>
<p>I would not worry about the hours that you have to work as an associate lawyer. Worry first about getting into a top school and finishing at the top of your class. </p>
<p>Working a lot of hours is like residency in medicine. It is how you learn the field. Working in a top law firm gives you many valuable contacts at the leading edge of the business and financial communities. This can lead to a more stable in-house position after a few years. </p>
<p>Many people work many hours and never in their lives touch the starting salary at a top firm. Thus, do not be put off by the hours. It is a great learning experience where you work the top business lawyers and business people in the country from top corporations.</p>
<p>Interesting post, Toroto_guy.</p>
<p>If you don't mind, I'll ask again: what's your background? Feel free to PM me :D</p>
<p>WF</p>
<p>After one has been made partner of a big law firm, will the hours ease? I know it is a tough question because it is so broad, but let's say on average. My DD's BF is a third year lawyer and he has been totally consumed on a case for the past year. Last month, he billed 300 hours. I know he aims for partnership at his law firm but I also want to warn my daughter about the lonely life she will have if she agrees to marry him.</p>
<p>cbreeze - I am a former attorney who graduated a top law school many years ago and worked first at a major law firm and then at a small firm - so the following is based on what I saw from that perspective-</p>
<p>When I began my legal career, I recall being told that the most common misconception young attorneys had was that the hours got better if they made partner - that in fact the hardest working attorneys were often the young partners.</p>
<p>If you stop and think about this, it does make sense - law firms don't make an associate a partner simply as a reward for a job well done all those years as an associate - they make someone partner because they think that the work they did as an associate indicates that they will be the type of partner they want - ie someone who can take on responsibility, work at the level they expect, and possibly bring in clients (the importance of that last item depends on the firm - some don't expect this from new partners because exisitng partners bring in more than enough work). All that assumes putting in a lot of work - perhaps a different type of work - more out of the office, more dealing with clients, less doing grunt work in long overnight sessions - but still a very significant work load. </p>
<p>And something that is much more common now than when I started out - it used to be up or out as far as partnership went - if you weren't making partner you were expected to leave - and often they would let you know that years before the actual partnership decision was due. Now many firms will allow "senior" associates to stay on - its a way of keeping all that experience working for them - Now obviously those senior associates are doing well enough that it is worth keeping them around, but something is just missing so that they don't make partner - I can't say what, probabnly depends on the individual firm's standards. So longevity at a firm is not in and of itself a guarentee of partnership - in my mind this would seem to indicate high expectations of those who do make partner.</p>
<p>Also - from what I saw at the firms I worked at and with friends -- the ones who are partners at these firms got there because they are incredibly driven and that drive doesn't end once they make partner.</p>
<p>Now you can view years as an associate as a learning process - ie paying your dues - but from what I know (which is of course limited by my experiences) - one shouldn't assume that the lifestyle drastically changes if one ends up as a partner at that firm.</p>
<p>Now having said all that - the very best answer to your question would come from you daughter and her boyfriend and what they actually see at his firm (it doesn't matter what the norm is or isn't, it matters what goes on at HIS firm). Does he see the partners having a much better lifestyle with significantly fewer hours? Does your daughter and her boyfriend ever go to social events with people from his firm, and if so what does she hear the partners' spouses say - do they joke about how little they see their spouses, or do they talk about how those grueling associate years were worth it because now the partner has a real life? The answer to your question is already within their grasp - the only issue is whether they want to see it.</p>
<p>Thank you very much for your informative and articulate post. Yes, I should think my DD should have a clear idea what to expect by now. My husband is a physician and was absent from home much of the time. However, whenever he was home, he was engaging the kids, saving his down time after they go to bed.
My children hardly recall the times their dad was gone because of the many strong and positive memories of their activities with him.</p>
<p>She caught a glimpse on the life of the mother of a young man she dated while in college. His father was at the time managing partner of a prestigious law firm. I recall one year the young man (who was visiting at my house) tried to call his Dad on Father's Day and found him working at his office, at 8 PM on a Sunday night. The mother herself worked part time as an attorney and spent free time involved in many organizations. She had complained that his Dad never took her to movies and their vacations were very short ones. A couple of years later, he told my daughter he was still working about 90 hours a week-working on the biggest case in his life, after he had stepped down as managing partner and over 65 years of age.</p>
<p>You are very correct in saying that these men who are made partners are very driven. Her BF's father is one of 13 kids growing up dirt poor in the Appalachia. He managed to become President of a company, with 8 figure income including bonuses. I sense that the BF wants to prove himself also. From conversation with my DD, he is getting positive feedback from his firm's partners and he is chiefly responsible for a case he has been working on that will be very profitable for the firm.</p>
<p>Both of them have said they do not want a divorce and he has asked her many times if his long hours would pose a problem. I just hope he doesn't sacrifice family in pursuit of his goals. By the way, his parents are still married.</p>
<p>the most important thing is that she and he be honest with themselves and with each other as to what they each expect from his chosen career path and from each other (and from her career as well if that raises issues that need to be dealt with).</p>
<p>once you get into t50% in t14 law school you can get a 6 figure job…with crazy hours. at a top regional school t25%…lower ranked t1-10%</p>
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<p>This is incorrect.</p>
<p>Work. Eat. Sleep. Repeat.</p>
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<p>This isn’t always true. Some firms, like Skadden, count up to 100 (or 50 I don’t remember which) hours of pro bono as “billable” for internal purposes (i.e. compensation and performance evaluation). However no receivables will be generated for pro bono.</p>
<p>Btw, your hours get worse when you make partner.</p>
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<p>Maybe. If you were partner-track to begin with, I think they’d be on par. Also, the hours spent as a partner are on much more “enjoyable” things.</p>
<p>On how pro bono hours factor into billables, this website is pretty informative regarding specific firms:
careers.abovethelaw.com</p>
<p>Even if there is a 100% equivalence, there’s usually an unspoken rule at most top NYC shops that a solid 1900-2000 real billables should be nailed down by the end of the year.</p>
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<p>Though there aren’t as many as you would think, there are women who make partner, too.</p>
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<p>What activity is it that you think is enjoyable when you’re doing it for days and days on end without sleep?</p>