<p>As with Early Decision, the rapidly spreading use of the "likely letter" for other than athletc recruits is generally blamed on "other schools" - as in: </p>
<p>"We've had to expand our use of this device for purely defensive reasons ... because our <em>competitors</em> are sending them out to practically everybody they admit. We wish <em>other</em> schools would respect the spirit of the Ivy Agreement and wait until April 1 to send admission letters, but if our competitors are now sending 'likely letters' to all the most desirable applicants, well ... we cannot stand idly by while our pockets are picked."</p>
<p>Byerly-- I followed the link you posted to the Opinion Journal article, which was very interesting but didn't say anything specific about Yale's use of likely letters. I've now heard from several sources that they sent ~100 such letters in a given year, but am wondering where your figure of nearly 500 came from.</p>
<p>Byerly,which are the schools that send "likely letters" for defensive (or any other) reasons in addition to Dartmouth and Yale? Other Ivies, Stanford, Rice, Duke, Northwestern? Any specific info would I'll bet would be appreciatively read on this board. Thanks.</p>
<p>Am I the only one whos a little put off by the OPs apparent zeal to whip up a kind of bidding frenzy (I've heard that some of the elite schools really get a kick out of beating out head to head rivals for a student)? His daughter is obviously a fantastic candidate--why not let her rest on her laurels (shes also a Notre Dame Scholar) and see what happens?</p>
<p>If his daughter had her heart set on a particular college other than Yale or Notre Dame, I could possibly see asking the GC to call and and let that college know. But Im not really hearing that in his posts.</p>
<p>The OP wants to get the best financial package for his daughter from each of the schools. It is not a easy process. I have seen far more overzealous parents in the athletic rounds trying to get the best deal. He is looking for the most effective and hard nosed approach. Whatever works. He does not want to do anything inappropriate or harmful in the process. He is very blunt and direct in expressing this.</p>
<p>I do not know of any recent information on who sends out likely letters to non athletes. I have heard that all of the ivies and the schools he mentions do for athletes. I would suggest that you call the admission department directly and ask if they send out likely letters to anyone other than athletes. I have called adcoms directly a number of times to ask a direct question, and that is often the quickest way to get information. When my son was considering voice auditions at some of the schools, I called and asked directly what the accept rate was for voice. The girl at the other end of the line had the number right at her fingertips. Nowhere on the websites was this info posted. The numbers for the whole university were not of use to me, as I was interested in a specific department where it is not unusual to have a totally different number. It is difficult to get certain info from the adcoms , but if they send out likely letters, they are able to give you some ballpark idea as to how many they tend to send out,whether it is in the 100 or 500 range. </p>
<p>If your D has a specific first choice school, you might have her write a letter that lets them know that they are her very top choice, and that she has an offer on the table from ND for $X, and would need something comparable to go to the first choice school. She would be taking a chance that the info could offend the adcom. To tell a number of schools that they are first choice would not be wise in addition to being dishonest, as any of the adcoms could easily call the GC to find out what the story is. If they don't mesh, she is likely to be flushed out of consideration. But there is nothing wrong with trying to leverage what offers and advantages you have.</p>
<p>as to the OP's question: I seriously don't see how mentioning the Yale "likely" would in any way help your chances at other schools. What Yale saw in her, the other adcoms will see as well without any help. Mentioning the letter will only turn them off, seeing as they now know that the applicant is being actively courted by other schools.</p>
<p>I don't think the OP wants to create a bidding war; he(she?) just wants to ensure that his daughter has the most options available.</p>
<p>edit: posted too late, basically just repeated what janimom said.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The OP wants to get the best financial package for his daughter from each of the schools.
[/quote]
jamimom - Negotiating the best financial aid packages generally comes after acceptance, no? Because the Ivies all have similar aid, if Princeton, say, offered $2000 less than what Yale offers, then the Yale acceptance can be used to "nudge" and negotiate Princeton to match Yale's offer. However, before actually being accepted in April and notified of the financial aid award, it would not be ideal/wise to share the likely letter. What Yale thinks is great, other schools will probably thing is great too. Given the chance that other schools may see the mention of the likely letter as a sign that applicant wants to go to Yale, it seems more a risk, to me, than a benefit...</p>
<p>Zant but it best when she said:
[quote]
I think it's more likely to have a "oh she's already in somewhere, let's give this spot to someone else" effect than "wow she's amazing, let's compete with Yale" effect.
<p>RedJayHawk, you are receiving but not giving - several posters have asked for her stats - you deflected. Obviously they are very interested in comparing because they have applied. Methinks it would be courteous for you to oblige.</p>
<p>Gianievie, for whatever reason the OP has a highly desirable student. In a case like that sometimes it helps to let the adcoms of a school know what offers you already have BEFORE they come up with their packages, because if they really want the student, they can adjust accordingly. And depending on the desirability of the student, it could be an edge factor for a merit award. Say, you are considering a number of students for the very juicy XYZ merit award. And you find out that Student A who is highly desired by the school, is exactly what the school want, has been awarded the PQR award by a rival college. And that student then leaks it out that she prefers your school, but that PQR award is pretty amazing, well, what do you do? If you read "The Gatekeepers" you can see how this kind of play unrolls. Featured in the book is a very desirable student, and the schools do bend over to attract her and info on who has accepted her, what she has been offered and if she is still interested in your school becomes very valuable. You cannot award the XYZ Scholarship to her after you have awarded to someone else and there are limits to what can be offered in financial aid if the school gives only need based awards, but even then you can look at the info with a generous or stingy eye.</p>
<p>Now granted, all of this can backfire. Some adcom could very well take offense, and maybe the student isn't that hot to the school anyways. In which case, yes, it can backfire and you can hurt the student. But the top schools do not tend to be vindictive that way. And they will take it seriously if a top drawer candidate really wants their school, but is being pursued by rival schools. So if the student is honest about the situation and lets her first choice school know that she really wants to go there, but there are other suitors out there dangling some really good awards, the school may react favorably. Particularly if the GC verifies this info. If the info is contradictory, and the school smells a game in play, things can backfire.</p>
<p>Of course other CCers are under no 'obligation' to help RedJayHawk game the system, especially since schools 'of comparable prestige' to Yale offer only needs-based, not merit, aid. ;)</p>
<p>I work with families and student, and I really prefer to deal with people who cut to the chase and ask the question without covering it up with a bunch of muck. This may be an unusual situation for many people, but I see this all of the time with athletic recruits. They have to balance many different things to get the right school, best deal, and it gets even blunter, because they have a shorter time period to get the deal done. Make a mistake or bad luck, and you have lost your opportunity. So you do the best you can, getting all the info you can. You are not so much trying to "game" the system, as you are trying to get the most out of the situation. Gaming the system would be telling all of the schools that they are number 1, and you would go there if XYZ occurs, when there is no way you could go to all of those schools. Letting all of the schools know what is on the table at the moment is taking a risk of sorts, because you are not giving them anything---when you make a commitment you are losing the chance at*another school if you intend to keep the commitment.</p>
<p>I've heard from a "knowlegable source" that Yale sent over 400 for the Class of 2008, although no school except Dartmouth (under duress) has publically admitted to a precise number.</p>
<p>For some discussion of Yale's greater use of the "likely letter" device - and its expansion well beyond the "recruited athlete" group - see this article from November, 2004, in the wake of the campaign to fill the Class of 2008:</p>
<p>"One method of manipulating the matriculation rate which the study did not include is the idea of early recruitment. Yale's "Likely Program" recruits particularly strong candidates in four categoriesminorities, academics, athletics, and a fourth category that combines minorities and academicsand gives early notification of acceptance to these students.</p>
<p>The possibility of manipulation comes into play when the college entices students with unusual benefits. Shaw emphasized the fact that Yale gets information out early to candidates whom the admissions office thinks "would be a good fit," but said that there are no enticements other than the ordinary offers."</p>
<p>jamimom, you raise some very good points, but:</p>
<p>
[quote]
...depending on the desirability of the student, it could be an edge factor for a merit award.Say, you are considering a number of students for the very juicy XYZ merit award. And you find out that Student A who is highly desired by the school, is exactly what the school want, has been awarded the PQR award by a rival college.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If OP's daughter is looking at the top schools (Ivy League) - which she must be if she applied to Yale - then the argument about merit scholarships becomes invalid. ** Ivy League schools don't give merit awards, they give financial aid based solely on need.** And need is need - you can't really manipulate or "bargain" it.</p>
<p>Not to be too cynical, but is anyone else a little sleptical about someone getting a likely letter before Yale has even finished opening its mail, let alone had a committee meeting yet? There is more to this than meets the eye, with all due respect...</p>
<p>Even the Ivies, even Harvard has merit awards. They are called merit within need awards, and some of them have danglers that give more than the need. You do have to qualify for need to be considered for them. Also financial aid packages can be put together in many different ways. With a thought to be generous and a thought to scrimp. I refererred to "The Gatekeepers" earlier. By discussing finances AFTER admissions, one family did get more money out of Yale. No reason why making it clear to admissions (who seem to be well aware of this fact), that the student is a hot prospect, would not yield a more generous read of the financial aid info. All financial aid packages, even from the ivies are not equal. It is possible to get sweetners. I have seen such cases mainly for hot athletic and minority prospects.</p>
<p>rumbeam22- I'm not sure if you mean skeptical or cynical of this post, but I'm feeling a lot of each. When the Harvard book says "Financial aid at Harvard is entirely need-based......Our commitment could not be stronger." and jamimom claims that there are "merit within need awards..." at Harvard it makes me cynical... When the book says that Decision Notification for RD is "early April" and you hear of posters on CC claiming to have gotten likely letters less than two weeks after the RD application deadline, it makes me skeptical AND cynical. What a lesson for all of the kids who apply to these schools! They work extremely hard during hs, follow all the rules for college applications and then find out that while they are waiting for the results to be sent to them in March/April others are getting "secret" letters from the colleges. It's really rather sickening.</p>
<p>I find it hard to believe that Harvard offers such "merit within need" awards. Do you have solid proof? Differences in aid among Ivies probably results from different ways of calculating financial need. That said, I'd be willing to accept that other Ivies beside Harvard offers such clandestine merit awards...just not Harvard. I've never heard of it happening there, and have always been led to believe that the aid is purely financial. </p>
<p>andi: I'm not sure this is what's happening, but here's my guess. The regional representative has started reading apps, and when he/she comes across an auto-admit sort of candidate, they send out likely letters. That could be a reason why the likely letter is coming so early. I don't think it's a bad policy, b/c at least for some ppl, it relieves the anxiety they might have while waiting for the RD decision. It doesn't hurt other kids at all, at least not in my opinion.</p>
<p>From the ASC website:</p>
<p>"Given approximately 18,000 applicants and a common Ivy mailing date in early-April, it is clear that the Admissions Committee cannot discuss every candidate and that much of the work of selection must be done in the folder-reading process. Prior to committee meetings, which begin in mid-February, admissions officers must identify the very strongest applicants who are admitted with little or no discussion."</p>