<p>I have read that some colleges have employed "enrollment counselors". Apparently one of the things these folks do for colleges is to advise the college of the likelyhood of an applicant attending. This is based on listed preferences obtained though the applicant's high school, the number of visits to the campus by the applicant, family income, and so on. Upon recieving this information the college, based on indicated interest and the enrollment counselor's recommendation, then determines what kind of financial package to offer the student. My D's GC wants a list of colleges in order of preference... Should we say "no particular preference" rather than tipping our hand and possibly recieving a reduced award at D's #1 choice.</p>
<p>Why does the GC want the list in order of preference in the first place?</p>
<p>Kind of silly, since I would think a GC would have enough experience to know that kids change their preferences from late junior year all the way through April of Senior year. We know it here on cc.</p>
<p>Just my 2 cents, but I would agree that you should not list the preferences for that reason -- except it could backfire if the college is fishing for that sort of information to decide whether to accept the student in the first place. </p>
<p>If your daughter is applying to more than 6 schools, how about a list that says, "no particular order" but lists the several "top choices" including colleges that are direct competitors of the #1 choice. I know that I encouraged my daughter to tell colleges that they were "a" top choice or "one of" her top choices, rather than "the" first choice -- as I do feel that my son was denied need-based aid at his own first choice college because of overstating his enthusiasm. (He wrote something about being willing to sell a kidney to come.... I guess they assumed he would follow through on that -- unfortunately for that school, his #2 choice apparently wanted an intact body and brain and offered the money needed to secure it).</p>
<p>It's possible that this GC is so "connected" that he can consistently get students admitted to their first choice college. That's the ONLY "good" reason I can think of to supply an ordered list. On the other hand I can think of a dozen reasons NOT to provide an ordered list, starting with the obvious one (mentioned previously): Why would any sane person assume that the ordering won't change?</p>
<p>It could be that the GC is just trying to actually help and is using the ordered list to try to help pull out what the student is looking for out of the college experience. That's not necessarily an easy task.</p>
<p>It's OK to group them, but I can't think of any reason to withhold information from a GC.</p>
<p>For example, what if two colleges are tied for favorite and one of them is a sure-bet in Early Decision? Knowing that it's your favorite helps the GC.</p>
<p>Or, knowing the favorites might help identify some safeties.</p>
<p>The information was requested on a standard form by our HS's guidence department. It actually says "List the colleges you wish to attend in order of preference" I'm not sure my D's GC is even shrewd enough to know about enrollment counselors. All I need is D's #1 choice to be told that they are in fact #1.. I can see carrot being pulled away.</p>
<p>I guess after submitting your order of preference if it would be encumbant on the student, if it changed, to advise his or her GC. But.. what if the preference is guided by finances? In other words any three or four colleges would be fine depending upon the best package recieved from those schools?
I think it is a bad idea to specify a #1 anytime, unless money is no object.</p>
<p>My son's guidance counselor said she would customize her letter to his top choice school and communicate that they were his number 1 pick so to speak. The rest she sent out were, I assume, more general. Because she did that for him (and I'm sure others) I assume that it must matter to colleges when they are told this student really, really wants to go here and will come if accepted. </p>
<p>BTW he did get into the school. However, by the spring he had changed his mind and is going to another school. :) Go figure.</p>
<p>In my humble opinion, the GC should be helping the student get into ALL of the schools to which the student is applying...and not in a ranked order. The reality is that the preferred order of colleges changes frequently during the application process. One school DD applied to fell off of her list completely, and it had been #1 or #2 all through the process. What good would it have been for the GC to advocate more highly for this school than for the others to which DD applied? Personally, I don't think it's the GC's business...at my school they have plenty that they already are NOT doing...they don't need this additional information to add to their "not to do right" list. And P.S. during the application process...I told my kids they needed to apply to EVERY college (including their safety) like it was their NUMBER ONE choice.</p>
<p>Our GC is asking for a preferential list, too. DS has eight schools at the moment, and is quite proud to say he'd be happy at ANY of them. There's a year to go before he has to decide -- why on earth would he want to give the GC a ranked list now?</p>
<p>His answer is to give her the list in alphabetical order and specifically mention that they are not ranked. There are too many variables that can change between now and this time next year ($$$, a school or two he hasn't visited yet, suddenly caring about the weather, distance, etc.).</p>
<p>We see the GC for our college advising appointment in two weeks. It should be a fascinating conversation. She also wants a writing sample from DS (it can be anything -- not specifically a graded one), but no info on WHY she wants it. I'm told through the grapevine that it's so she can assess his writing skills. HUH?!?!?!?</p>
<p>As a counselor, I don't see anything wrong with asking students to rank their priorities. In fact, it is something I do as well as part of the process of helping students clarify what they like about individual colleges, and to narrow their lists to more managable and focused proportions. </p>
<p>Giving the GC this list will not, in any way shape or form affect a child's chances in the way you are thinking Night. While it is true that many colleges these days do look for signs of "demonstrated interest" in admissions decisions, it is extremely unlikely that even the most inexperienced guidance counselor would alert each school on that list to their ranking. However, knowing that a particular school is a "top choice" may help the guidance counselor better advise the student in terms of their application approach for a particular school, develop additional suggestions for schools to look at, and in writing the recommendation for the particular college.</p>
<p>If you would like to read some good articles on enrollment management and how it factors into admissions AND financial aid decisions, PM me and I'll point you to some. Being educated is important, but try not to get overly concerned about things like this. The vast majority of guidance counselors have good intentions, and working closely with them whenever possible is always a good idea.</p>
<p>I also ask for writing samples from students when I begin working with them. They are helpful in getting a sense of how successfully a student can convey information in writing, which, of course, they'll need to do on their applications. If I see that a student has poor writing skills, or has trouble with expressing ideas effectively, I'll know in advance that the student might need additional help and/or time to polish his/her application essays. And, you'd also be surprised at how much such "writing samples" can tell me about a kid's personality. That insight can be extremely helpful at times in getting to know them, and helping them with college planning.</p>
<p>Of course, once you tell a kid that you'll be using a writing sample for the above, their writing style will likely immediately change as they fuss about impressing you. Worse, in some cases, parents step in and start "making things better" when that's not what the GC wants to see. So, please, I would recommend NOT telling this to your child, and just have them put the materials together themselves.</p>
<p>There is a method to the madness of both GC's requests. Don't read too much into them -- just go with the flow, and don't stress. :)</p>
<p>Carolyn, what do you do if you don't approve of the student's college choices, or if you recommend that a student apply to a particular college and the student doesn't want to?</p>
<p>A year ago, when my daughter was preparing for her college advising appointment, she was very worried that the GC would veto her choices or would write a bad recommendation if my daughter insisted on applying to schools that the GC said no to. But all the GC did was to interrogate her about her extracurriculars. </p>
<p>I think that people are worried about the writing sample because if it isn't good, that might obligate the GC to say in his/her recommendation something like, "This kid is great at this, that, and the other thing, but isn't a good writer." This is an intimidating thought. Actually, the whole college advising appointment is pretty intimidating.</p>
<p>First, I can assure you that 99% of guidance counselors look for positive things, not negative things, to say in their recommendations. Remember, getting kids into college makes them look good. So, don't think of the advising appointment as intimidating - look at it as a chance to let the GC get to know your child better. :) </p>
<p>Second, my opinions ultimately don't matter. Kids (and parents) ignore my advice all the time. (smile). But, I can guarantee you that when I do suggest that a particular college may not be the best choice for a student, I always have a reason for doing so. But do I take it personally if they have other ideas? Never, and I am the first one to cheer when they prove me wrong. </p>
<p>However, as a counselor I also feel strongly that is also my responsibility to make sure that every student I work with has a safety net in case their dreams don't pan out. Unfortunately, sometimes students (and parents) see the suggestion that a safety net is necessary as the same thing as disagreeing with the other schools on the list. </p>
<p>I, at least, have the luxury of choosing which students and families to work with; school counselors do not, and I respect them for the enormous stress they willingly take on. It may not seem like it to those looking in from the outside, but school counselors really do deserve much more credit then they often get. Even the weakest counselors do much more behind the scenes than parents and students realize to make sure that students get where they want to go. Are they perfect? Absolutely not. Certainly, it behooves students and parents to stay on top of the process themselves, do their own research, and make their own decisions, not just rely on the guidance counselor (or an independent counselor like myself either). But no one is perfect, and predicting the outcome of the admissions process is NOT an exact science.</p>
<p>Ultimately, however, school counselors don't stay in counseling for long if they don't have the best interests of their students at heart. The best approach is to try to develop a positive working relationship with them, and to keep an open-mind about their suggestions and input, even if, in the end, you decide not to take any of their suggestions, rather than thinking of them in an adversarial way right off the bat.</p>
<p>"The best approach is to try to develop a positive working relationship with them, and to keep an open-mind about their suggestions and input, even if, in the end, you decide not to take any of their suggestions, rather than thinking of them in an adversarial way right off the bat."</p>
<p>Very important point. My relationship with my son's GC started off rocky due to what I consider a bad piece of advice regarding SAT's - but we worked things out and had a very good working relationship at the end. The vast majority of her students do not apply to competitive schools, and she later told me that she enjoyed working on his applications.</p>
<p>Our guidance counselor doesn't even ask for a list. The first they even know of where you are applying is when you give them the envelope.
This was the case with both kids. Two different counselors. I think of the 5 counselors at the high school maybe 1 of them even offers suggestions.
The only planned individual meeting is Soph year. They provide you with the state universities requirements and introduce you to the career center where they have college catalogs. They also provide a hard paper card to list EC's, jobs and honors. End of jr year they have a jr night where they give the basic steps for applying to the State universities, and community college. They do run a FAFSA workshop senior year. For the most part you are on your own.</p>
<p>"End of jr year they have a jr night where they give the basic steps for applying to the State universities, and community college. They do run a FAFSA workshop senior year. For the most part you are on your own."</p>
<p>That's pretty much true at our HS ... but if you can get the GC on your team, it may help. Remember that many state uni's and cc's don't require the need the sort of application support that is discussed on CC: grades, sat's and an assurance from guidences about the disciplinary record is really what's needed. </p>
<p>My son's GC had fun with my son's apps - because they are different, and 4 out of the 6 were to schools that no one had applied to before .. ever. I am fairly sure that she was in contact with a couple of them, and I think she tried the hardest for the one of my son's top choices that she felt was the best fit.</p>
<p>I believe that GC's are a little twitchy about the situation where kids are admitted - then there is a rejection or money problem - kid yells at parent - GC gets blamed. If you can convey that the family discussion and planning has happened on this, the GC can do whatever mysterious gesturing they do behind the screen with a bit more confidence.</p>
<p>I don't want to speak ill of any public school GC. My heart goes out to them. My D's counselor has 80 kids to deal with. I'm sure college counseling and such must take the occasional back seat to kids who struggle with everything from parental neglect, to drug use, to special needs. From my perspective they have the toughest job in the school, bar none. If my D attended a 25k a year prep school it would be different. I am learning about the process and attempting to do as much as possible not to take any missteps that may damage my D's chances at her school of choice. Can I out think or outmanuever an enrollment counselor's prediction as to the likelihood of my D attending the school he is working for? I don't know ...but if they're gaming me, I will respond in kind.</p>
<p>Nightingale,
Admissions is not a science and there is NO WAY to predict the outcome. Even enrollment managers or admissions officers couldn't look at your daughter today and tell you with 100% certainty that she will get in at some point in the future. </p>
<p>While there is always going to be uncertainty and unpredictability, the best way to minimize it is not to try to "second guess" or out-manuveur the colleges. Rather, it is to build a college list that is based on matching what your daughter has to offer and wants/needs with the colleges who are looking for those types of students. That takes research into individual colleges and an ability to look at your daughter's strengths and weaknesses with a realistic eye. But the best way to minimize the uncertainty of the process is always, always, build in a safety net. The safety net is critical, and you will sleep much better having one.</p>
<p>I suppose it depends on what type of HS GC one has:
(a) likely to have a positive impact on student's applications;
(b) likely will have neither positive nor negative effect; or
(c) AT BEST will not negatively affect the student's applications.
[Full disclosure, I have lots of personal experience with (c) types.]
It seems, um, highly risky to trust that a type (c) GC would make appropriate use of something as ambiguous as "my ordered list as of this morning." And why provide more than minimal input to a type (b)? So perhaps what were talking about is what to do if a type (a) GC asks for such a list.</p>