<p>One of the schools on the poster's list uses graduate school TAs. The others do not.</p>
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One of the schools on the poster's list uses graduate school TAs
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<p>The graduate school TA's lead study groups, go one-on-one tutoring and help in the labs. They do not any teach classes as all classes are taught by professors (I know, kind of uncommon since TA's teach at other schools)</p>
<p>Yeah, yeah. I read the spiel. That's what they told us at the two large state universities we visited, too. "Oh, no...our TAs don't actually teach!" In fact, they told us over and over and over, I suppose on the hope that repetition would convince us!</p>
<p>If you do a search on on Teaching Assistants at Dartmouth, you will see some semantical gray area on that. They do give "lab section lectures", which sounds a lot like "teaching" to me. They conduct conversational language sessions, which again sounds like "teaching". They lead discussion sections for the larger lecture courses, again sounding suspiciously like "teaching". They staff the office hours for undergrads, again a part of "teaching". </p>
<p>I think a reasonable conclusion can be drawn that, if a research university has graduate students, they use 'em as cheap labor in the undergrad classrooms. But, of course, no university uses TA's to "teach". </p>
<p>I don't think using TA's the end of the world. It just "is". It's one of many factors to consider when evaluating an undergrad program.</p>
<p>I have a kid who is about to be a TA (not at Dartmouth, however) . . .she's the one who went to Swat. She is trying to get her little brother (my senior son) to go to an LAC so he can be taught by people who "know something!" :) What is funny to me about this is I know she knows a great deal in her subject and that she will be a very good instructor in the lower levels, which she thinks is all she will be teaching. And she will be good at it because she got excellent instruction in the lower levels at her LAC!</p>
<p>There are probably TA's at all these schools - but the question is what do TA's do? I was a TA years ago at Williams for several courses but did no "teaching". I showed younger students how to do surgery on mice for a lab project (really handy skill now that I'm a lawyer). I also helped professors grade tests.</p>
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They do give "lab section lectures", which sounds a lot like "teaching" to me.
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<p>I just asked my Daughter who just finished a chem course with lab at Dartmouth about this statment. This is her response based on her experience in her class;</p>
<p>The lab lectures are done by the professors. The TA's assist in the labs answering any questions that they (the student) have, collect and check the lab assignments.</p>
<p>The return of the [dis]interestedad:</p>
<p>"Yeah, yeah. I read the spiel"...I can't wait to read the rest; how will [dis]interestedad prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Swarthmore is the only school for anyone who cares about the declining state of America's precious youth (me), </p>
<p>"I don't think using TA's the end of the world."...whew, we dodged a bullet on that one!</p>
<p>interestedad's point on TAs, while partially true, doesn't apply just to Dartmouth- Amherst uses TAs to lead conversational language sessions, and I would bet that TAs are used in basically all the other capacities mentioned just as much at Amherst, Swat, Williams, etc, as at Dartmouth, or at least, nearly as much. I don't think that's a fair argument.</p>
<p>Umm.... So I'm in a similar boat as the OP. I've been accepted to Dartmouth (likely letter), Amherst, Middlebury, Carleton, Colby, Oberlin, Smith, Whitman, and U of A (AZ)- all the colleges I have applied to minus one. Now I'm just waiting on Williams. I wasn't expecting to have so many options, and I really don't have a clear first choice. I was hoping to decide by visiting, but my family can't afford to send me all over the country, and I don't have that much time, even if money was not an issue. I will be visiting Amherst and Dartmouth for sure (they are paying my way :)) Anyone know if Williams also funds students' visits? I've looked at pros and cons for these schools (given my interests) but what I think will really determine where I end up is the qualitative, uncategorizable (not a word, but you know what I'm trying to say) "feel/fit". But how can I determine that without visiting? Thoughts?</p>
<p>Amherst vs. Dartmouth vs. Princeton</p>
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I would bet that TAs are used in basically all the other capacities mentioned just as much at Amherst, Swat, Williams, etc, as at Dartmouth, or at least, nearly as much.
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<p>Nope.</p>
<p>With the exception of a handful of Masters Degree candidates at the Clark Art Institute, Williams, Swarthmore, and Amherst don't have any graduate students and, therefore, no graduate TAs. This is in contrast to Dartmouth (or any research university) where PhD candidates are required to do 200 hours of teaching as part of their indentured serv...er...I mean graduate school education.</p>
<p>I will give you two typical examples of courses at my daughter's small LAC where TA's would be heavily involved at research universities.</p>
<p>One was a freshman Physics course taught in three completely different sections by one of the department's most senior professors, 12 students in each section. The professor conducted each lab session as well as a several afternoons a week of office hour/study sessions. There were Physics majors paid to assist in the labs, but they were in addition to the professor.</p>
<p>The other was a large lecture course -- Intro Psych. This consisted of lectures by the professor teaching the course and then separate discussion sections for small group of a dozen students. The discussion groups were led by professors in the Psych department.</p>
<p>If you do a search for "TA" or "teaching assistants" at the Dartmouth website, I think you can find the role of TAs in similar courses at a research university. I do agree that Dartmouth probably uses TAs to a lesser extent than most research universities, mostly because their grad schools are relatively small. Such as the TAs that "don't teach", according the tour guides, at UVa and UNC-CH. You ought to hear the Harvard undergrads talk about their TAs.</p>
<p>Astarblaze:<br>
I believe Williams funds student visits. Anyway, it's only one hour away from Amherst, so you could do a short visit. It would be a pity not to do so when the two are so close.</p>
<p>As I mentioned above, undergraduates do serve as TA's at Williams. I was one, for 3 different courses. TA's would help out in labs - another pair of hands - and help grade tests. I'm sure this is true at all of the schools mentioned above. I don't think this is a critical factor in looking at any of these schools. They are all GREAT undergraduate institutions.</p>
<p>Astarblaze - I think marite is right - call the Williams admissions office and I think they will help out on funding.</p>
<p>Funny, Miamiboy... I thought Dartmouth's ED program was binding! Have decisions come out for regs yet? I thought they'd be up on the 31st...</p>
<p>He probably got a "likely letter" from Dartmouth ....</p>
<p>On another site, miamiboy says it is now down to Swarthmore and Princeton. Princeton and Dartmouth are both binding ED? Likely letters from all?</p>
<p>I received likely letters from all the schools I listed. BTW, my choices now are Swarthmore vs. Amherst vs. Dartmouth</p>
<p>You are deservedly excited. Congrats. My son, now a junior at Amherst, had the same choices. (My D is in the middle of this year's cycle). As others have said, there's no wrong answer and it all depends on what is important to you. His analysis was, and after three years still is, as follows (as a dad, I didn't always agree, but I now think he was probably right, at least for him). Haverford: a bit too small and a bit less respected than the others. Swarthmore: a little grindy and a little too serious in outlook and not a fun place atmospherically (it's a place without grade inflation too). Also a bit too politically correct; at least then, there was a move against personalizing dorm rooms because it would show "differences" among the students, economically and otherwise. Dartmouth: more fraternity oriented than he wanted (though he has since joined one), too rural and consequently more drinking than he hoped for (i.e., nothing else going on so drink yourself silly); Williams: also too remote, physically difficult to get to (especially from CA), very serious about athletics. Amherst won out because it was to him the best blend of these various issues: it was semi rural but close to Boston etc (a little over an hour) and it was part of 5 neighboring colleges, so there was a big college community for a small school (the academic interaction of the 5 is, for Amherst students, pretty negligible, but there is a lot of social interaction, especially for guys with Smith and Mt. Holyoke students); neighboring Northampton (where Smith is) is the geographic center of the 5 schools and a really terrific college town, with lots of restaurants, bars, shops, etc. It has far more than a normal city its size would have (I think there are 200 restaurants in the immediate area). The upper class housing is well-known to be far above average (there are brand new freshman dorms now). The educational/extra curricular experience has been terrific for him but that's equally true at any of your options. Teaching has been terrific and very personalized. In practice, (he's a non-science guy), very few exams are standard 2 hours in class. Nearly all of his have been papers etc., so there's a lot of emphasis on thinking and writing and less on fact memorization. One other thing that is not obvious, though the others may have this as well. If students wants to work for a charity or pro bono organization in the summer, Amherst will subsidize them with grants, even for students who are not eligible for financial aid. That gives a lot more options for summer work if earnming money is not the sole goal. The Administration, from a parent's view, is terrific. Helpful, cooperative, very appreciative of parental and financial support. The students complain of it only mildly, which is unlike most schools where the default position is to hate the Administration
One last tip of something that was important to my thinking. One way to consider how happy students were is to look at the alumni giving rate (US News has it). This is a form of customer feedback when it is all over. Amherst (65%) is the highest in the country, but Williams (61%) is close. (Princeton at 64% is highest of the university class; Harvard is 47%). That seems to say something, but while some of the differences are small the 12-16 point difference between Haverford and Amherst/Williams may mean something significant.</p>
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As I mentioned above, undergraduates do serve as TA's at Williams. I was one, for 3 different courses. TA's would help out in labs - another pair of hands - and help grade tests.
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<p>We aren't talking about an "extra pair of hands". We are talking teaching responsibilities. Were you conducting the lab? </p>
<p>Here is a document called TA Teaching Responsibilities from the Physics and Astronomy Department at Dartmouth including how TA's should conduct their lab classes, what to cover i their lab lectures, and a section on general teaching tips:</p>
<p>I'm not saying that having TAs teach is the end of the world. Heck, they have to practice on somebody. But, when it's right there is black and white, the universities shouldn't deny that TAs teach. For $40k a year, consumers should have the information they need to make informed buying decisions.</p>
<p>Thanks for the enjoyable read about Amherst. We need more Amherst fans to balance the Ephmen and Swatties.</p>
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Swarthmore: a little grindy and a little too serious in outlook and not a fun place atmospherically.
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<p>I hope you are right. Last night was the annual Swat party where nude or nearly nude partiers are reportedly the common. As a Dad, I was kind of hoping that they didn't have THAT much fun!</p>
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Also a bit too politically correct; at least then, there was a move against personalizing dorm rooms because it would show "differences" among the students, economically and otherwise.
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<p>You would have to 'splain that one a bit? </p>
<p>The only thing even remotely in that realm was an attempt a couple of years ago by a couple of kids on the housing committee to have a "multicultural" hall in one of the dorms. The Dean of Housing agreed to try it, but only if the hall contained all races and was not paired up like Noah's Ark. When all was said and done, they had something like 3 student applications for the hall, the student body shooting down the idea with political action at its most basic level. The students and the college have resoundingly rejected "theme" housing along racial/ethnic lines, if that's what you mean by "personalizing".</p>