<p>Thanks, tagran. My D is there now. She will like the indie music scene. Were you impressed with the art facilities?
The drunk and high kids comment does not sit well with me. I imagine she will come home with her own stories.</p>
<p>Thanks, tagran. Congratulations on your decision. It must be good to have that over with.
My D is there now and will be back on Saturday. Must say the drunk and high kids comment gives me pause. How did you like the art facilities?
My D will like the indie music scene, I am sure. Checking out the academics and classes will be important to her too. I have a feeling she will opt for Chicago.</p>
<p>Sorry for double post. I thought the first one did not register.</p>
<p>My D is going to Grinnell.</p>
<p>We just got back form visiting Kenyon and within hours my D was saying things like" No, I don't want to do anything else here. I'm going to Grinnell" </p>
<p>Kenyon has a drop dead beautiful campus. It is everything physically that you imagine a small liberal arts college to be. What they also have are many, many frat boys. (They downplay that in their literature). They also had an alcohol related death of a freshman boy just two weeks ago.
Except for their new President (a post Ivy woman) and the renegade editor of the Kenyon Review, the faculty struck me as staid.</p>
<p>The swimmers (national stars and, boy, don't they know it!) are arrogant, the 50% of the kids smoke and the student body lacks diversity. </p>
<p>The food however is better than Grinnell's for the moment (Grinnell is building a new campus center with state of the art feeding facilities). Future students of Grinnell unite! Make sure that a local food movement is underway! </p>
<p>The aura of scholarship at Grinnell was palpable: not so at Kenyon. I did attend a beautifully sung a cappella performance with at least six groups that were fabulous. However, my D doesn't sing.</p>
<p>Kenyon is a college on a hill with the town of Mount Vernon ( pop.20,000) just 4 miles away and Columbus an hour and half drive. Grinnell is situated in a small town of 7,000 a midway between Des Moines and Iowa City: it feels much farther removed form urban life, but is equidistant from Chicago, Minneapolis, and St. Louis.</p>
<p>Iowa is much closer to California, where we reside.</p>
<p>The Kenyon admissions officer I spoke with at length (very lovely person, who incidentally has her own two children at Grinnell) told me that 15% of the kids were given Merit Aid. Kenyon has a very small endowment that was mismanaged for many years. They cannot afford to give out the kind of aid that will attract higher end kids away from other schools (this is what Grinnell has been able to do very well with their 1.1 billion dollar endowment).</p>
<p>Kenyon sequesters the freshmen into separate dorms. Grinnell mixes them up.</p>
<p>From the moment we arrived, Grinnell started to build the prospies into a class. They gathered us all into a room and read off a list of the incoming class' accomplishments: how many valedictorians, national merit scholars, team captains, yearbook editors, etc. They ended hat litany with " ...and one of you evens belongs to a cheese club (my D)!"</p>
<p>All in all, Kenyon is a great alternative for kids that want to go to the Ivies, but can't cut it academically. I am sure the education is sound, but Kenyon was not able to present that to the parents, at least during our visit. I also read Alma Mater, a must read for any parent or prospy going to a small liberal arts school. I know it is Kenyon specific, but it applies generically as well. The concerns I have about Kenyon, were, in the main, the concerns P..F. Kluge wrote about in book. My D would have been near the very top of the class at Kenyon, I would like her to be more in the middle, forced to strive to achieve her goals.</p>
<p>For my part, my D will be stretched and tested WAY more at Grinnell.</p>
<p>Okay the high and drunk kids comment was an overstatement, while there does seem to be an active drinking scene as well as a lot of people who smoke, I also met people there who don't. There are also substance free dorms, I don't think it's a problem. My tour guide aknowledged the fact that people do drink and smoke, and really what the college wants students to do is to help people if they're in trouble, not get people in trouble.</p>
<p>mizsic: Congratulations on your daughter's choice. I hope she will be very happy at Grinnell.</p>
<p>mizsic:
Congratulations on your daughter's decision. I hope she does great in Grinell.
As I am certain about attending Kenyon the coming fall, I have few questions for you.</p>
<p>Can you please elaborate on this?
[quote]
All in all, Kenyon is a great alternative for kids that want to go to the Ivies, but can't cut it academically
[/quote]
What were few of the concerns written by P..F. Kluge in the book? It would be of great help to a lot of people, if you could share some of these concerns. </p>
<p>thnks:)</p>
<p>Mizsic, </p>
<p>It is wonderful that your daughter had the chance to visit both Grinnell and Kenyon in order to find out which school will be best for her. That is what April visiting days are for. However, I feel that some of your comments about Kenyon went far beyond describing your and your daughters impressions into the realm of unnecessarily derogatory statements, some of which have no basis in fact.</p>
<p>To be specific, your statement that Kenyon is a great alternative for kids that want to go the Ivies but cant cut it academically totally confuses me. The alternative to an Ivy would be a similar sized university in a similar setting (urban or suburban, depending on the particular Ivy League school), not a very small liberal arts colleges. Students usually choose to go to Kenyon (or Grinnell) because they want very small classes and close contact with professors, which are not necessarily the qualities Ivy League schools are known for. If you are talking about selectivity in admissions for Kenyon versus the Ivies, please dont take this the wrong way, but your exact same statement could just as well be made that Grinnell is an alternative for students who cant cut it at Ivies. </p>
<p>As far as merit aid, I am going by the US News website, which gives very complete statistics. For Grinnell, 24% of freshman and 28% of all students receive merit aid averaging $10,370 and $8,890, respectively. For Kenyon, 25% of freshman and 24% of all students receive merit aid averaging $9,870 and $12,502, respectively. These numbers seem pretty comparable to me.</p>
<p>It is a fact that there are fraternities at Kenyon but not at Grinnell about 37% of men join, meaning 63% do not. If you want a school without fraternities, then you shouldnt apply to Kenyon to begin with. As far as smoking, my daughter and I visited quite a few LACs, and we were particularly on the lookout for level of smokers on each campus, as she HATES smoke and smoking. We did not notice more smokers at Kenyon than the other schools, and at some of the other schools we noticed MANY more smokers than we saw at Kenyon.</p>
<p>As far as academics, it is true that the average SATs and number in the top 10% of class are slightly higher at Grinnell than at Kenyon, but they are close enough that there would be a large overlap in the academic qualifications of the student bodies of the two schools.</p>
<p>My daughter applied Early Decision to Kenyon and we did not attend the recent visiting program, as she was on an overnight trip to the State Finals of an academic competition with her school team during those same days. Therefore, I cannot comment on the impression that Kenyon gave to the parents during the program you attended. The pep rally atmosphere at the Grinnell visiting days sounds like it was fun (and a great recruiting tool Im sure your D was THRILLED when her particular accomplishment was mentioned), but it is hardly justification for downing another school because they didnt include the same type of thing in their program. I hope you dont think that Kenyon didnt have such a rally because it has no valedictorians, National Merit Scholars, team captains, or editors, as I know that it has all of these (and when they got to my D, they could have said and one of you has even rebuilt a classic 1965 fastback Mustang with her dad :) !!!) FYI, about 20% of Kenyon students were in the top 1% of their high school class and about 10% are National Merit Finalists. It is very hard to interpret what you mean by the aura of scholarship being palpable at Grinnell but not at Kenyon. </p>
<p>I will say that when we visited last spring, we were given a private tour of the art department by a professor who was anything but staid, and everyone else we have contacted with questions, including several professors, have been most helpful. When we admired a particular piece of art which was on display, the art professor told us that the student who did it was a double major in studio art and chemistry. Our tour guides roommate had just been awarded a Fulbright scholarship, along with another Kenyon student. She was a chemistry/international studies double major planning to use her award to study water resources in Thailand. Here is the link to Kenyons story about these two students <a href="http://www.kenyon.edu/x16809.xml%5B/url%5D">http://www.kenyon.edu/x16809.xml</a>. Hearing things like this impressed us as to the academic opportunities available at Kenyon. And as far as my daughters academic interests, which are quite specific (but in diverse fields), Kenyon will allow her to pursue all of them as part of her program of studies.</p>
<p>I have read Kluges book too. It is a very honest book, and, as you said, many of his topics relate to any small liberal arts school. I assume you include Grinnell in that category. Also, his book was written about his experience during the early 1990s, and it was published in 1993. Kenyon has changed, become more selective, and expanded its offerings and programs during the last 12 years, and Im sure Grinnell has as well. </p>
<p>Again I congratulate your daughter on finding a school which she will be thrilled to attend. For another student, Grinnell might be a turn-off and Kenyon might be the perfect place.</p>
<p>I hope you will forgive me if I end with a little personal anecdote, which you may or may not find relevant to this discussion. Three years ago, my son was admitted to a number of colleges, including Harvard, Stanford, MIT, and Princeton, and visited the first three of these during a very hectic series of April visiting days. During our visit to Harvard, there were several things which we observed on the campus and heard during the presentations which convinced us that it was not the best choice for him. In contrast, Stanford was everything he hoped to find in a school, and it has turned out to be a fantastic place for him. If I am asked why he chose Stanford over Harvard, I truthfully state the reasons why Stanford seemed to be a better place for my son and what things he personally didnt find ideal about Harvard. However, I would never dream of using these personal observations and reasons as a basis for putting down Harvard in general. It would be nice if you would use the same courtesy when you express your thoughts on Kenyon.</p>
<p>Sorry this is so long I guess I got carried away!</p>
<p>mizsic:</p>
<p>I am finishing my sophomore year at Kenyon, and have been acting as the answer lady on the Kenyon boards. I have been contacted by a few users (students and parents) who were upset by your derogatory, unfounded, over the line comments. Yes. You may have read literature about Kenyon, and you may have visited, but this does not make you a sovereign critic of the college.</p>
<p>Kenyon has Greeks, that's not a secret. Fraternities are more popular than sororities, and quite a few men choose to join a frat. You seem to believe that Kenyon is crawling with "frat boys". At Kenyon the only common thread frat boys have is that they are a boy in a frat. A "frat boy" isn't a certain type of male, and men from all different backgrounds and social types join fraternities. </p>
<p>Unfortunately we live in a culture where teen alcohol related deaths are fairly common. Colin Boyarski had been drinking the night he died. He was at a party unaffiliated with a fraternity, and had gotten terribly drunk. His friends were concerned for his safety and health, and took him back to his room, where they put him to bed. Colin got out of bed himself to return to the party, and the next morning he was found dead. Hypothermia is believed to be the key factor in his death- not alcohol. It was Colin's decision to attend a party, his decision to drink, his decision to climb out of bed and go drink some more. The Kenyon administration had nothing to do with it, and they are currently working hard on solving the drinking problem at Kenyon, a drinking problem that exists at nearly every college in the US.</p>
<p>Swimmers are not arrogant. The reason they choose Kenyon is not only for Kenyon's swimming legacy, but because it is a down to earth place to learn and be part of the community.</p>
<p>Claiming that 50% of students are smokers is unfounded. Observation on your part is not fact.</p>
<p>Kenyon students lead balanced lives. We work very hard, but we also like to have fun and relax. The environment at Kenyon is not overly scholastic, but believe me, we do work and we are highly motivated students.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.kenyon.edu/finaid.xml%5B/url%5D">http://www.kenyon.edu/finaid.xml</a></p>
<p>Kenyon offers me a great financial aid package, without which I would be unable to attend. All of my friends at Kenyon (pretty much all of whom need finaid) have received adequate money from the college. Kenyon offers 75% of students financial aid, and will meet 100% of financial aid. I believe that the top 20% of a class is offered merit aid (the small number is due to the small endowment) but need based finaid is plentiful.</p>
<p>My Kenyon experience would have been terribly different had dorms been mixed. I find living next door to your classmates a great advantage. Everyone come to Kenyon with no friends, and your options are right there instead of having to scour your classrooms for friendly faces. Kenyon's hall/RA system builds a great sense of community, and you will continue to talk to your freshman hall all through your Kenyon life if not forever.</p>
<p>Mizsic, I wonder if you are aware of the number of students who turn down Ivies to attend Kenyon for it's qualities as an LAC... believe me, it's higher than you think. A Kenyon education rivals an education at nearly any top college or university. Where one ranks in terms of statistics is not relevant to success at Kenyon. Kenyon is challenging to every student, and each student finds their academic niche. The focus on critical thinking throws many near perfect high schoolers for a loop.</p>
<p>Before coming across as slanderish and immature, take a moment to check your facts and consider that other people may have entirely different opinions on my school after visiting. I'm sorry your daughter didn't like Kenyon, but it is not fair to dump your dislike on those of us who love Kenyon and make it our home.</p>
<p>kc_lady, We posted at almost the same time :)</p>
<p>One last comment on the issue of all-freshman dorms. I can only comment based on Stanford, where my son is a junior. Stanford offers the choice between all freshman dorms and four-class dorms. The demand for all-freshman dorms is so overwhelming that many who request them cannot be accomodated, and Stanford is therefore expanding the number of all-freshman dorms to meet this demand.</p>
<p>I did not mean to be pejorative about Kenyon. I don't believe I was being slanderous. I was not citing facts and figures; you all are much better researched than I.
I was merely talking about our experience visiting Kenyon on two particular days in April, just two days. Not really enough time to decide where to spend the next four years. She just had a "feel' for Grinnell that leaned her in that direction. Neither of us disliked Kenyon in any way. In fact, I liked many things during my visit. </p>
<p>Things I loved about Kenyon (my daughter aside: however she is the one that made her final decision):
Again, drop dead beautiful campus located on a hill surrounded by rolling terrain and a river (who could ask for more in terms of physical beauty?)
Incredible performance by no less than six a cappella groups.
Large, large English Department
Kenyon Review, David Lynn
Good cafeteria food in an architecturally stunning building
Availability of the admissions officers to answer questions
The Kenyon Inn
The village of Gambier
The bookstore
The fitness facilities
The theater
President Nugent
Middle path
More foreign language offerings
$$
Drinking</p>
<p>Things that I did not care for at Kenyon;
Cigarette smoking, butts littering Middle path (just my impression folks, I am from California where smoking is frowned upon: my own personal history is that my mother died from cigarette related disease, so I am sensitive to it: I know how seductive it can be, and how deadly)
Fraternities (I guess I was na</p>
<p>I did not mean to be pejorative about Kenyon. I don't believe I was being slanderous. I was not citing facts and figures; you all are much better researched than I.
I was merely talking about our experience visiting Kenyon on two particular days in April, just two days. Not really enough time to decide where to spend the next four years. She just had a "feel' for Grinnell that leaned her in that direction. Neither of us disliked Kenyon in any way. In fact, I liked many things during my visit. </p>
<p>Things I loved about Kenyon (my daughter aside: however she is the one that made her final decision):
Again, drop dead beautiful campus located on a hill surrounded by rolling terrain and a river (who could ask for more in terms of physical beauty?)
Incredible performance by no less than six a cappella groups.
Large, large English Department
Kenyon Review, David Lynn
Good cafeteria food in an architecturally stunning building
Availability of the admissions officers to answer questions
The Kenyon Inn
The village of Gambier
The bookstore
The fitness facilities
The theater
President Nugent
Middle path
More foreign language offerings
$$</p>
<p>Things that I did not care for at Kenyon;
Cigarette smoking, butts littering Middle path (just my impression folks, I am from California where smoking is frowned upon: my own personal history is that my mother died from cigarette related disease, so I am sensitive to it: I know how seductive it can be, and how deadly)
Fraternities (I guess I was na</p>
<p>I meant to put drinking in both the did not like lists .</p>
<p>Targan, I've been to Grinnell probably six times now -- and the picture you paint of lots of drunk and high students stumbling across the railroad tracks isn't anything I've ever seen. Of course there is drinking at Grinnell and kids smoke marajuana -- but it's no worse - according to binge drinking data it's actually better - than on most college campuses. According to my D, there is alcohol at many parties. The only drug she's aware of is marajuana. She thinks the "self governance" policy helps to hold down the worst of the drinking. Kids watch out for each other. There are lots of kids who don't drink and smoke and the students are leading a drive to expand substance-free housing. Grinnell isn't a dry campus - but it's better than most and there are definitely students who do not partake and are not ostracized for it. Among other things, the academic workload is pretty steep - and most students spend all their weeknights and most of Sunday hitting the books.</p>
<p>I AM NOT PAINTING THAT PICTURE, IT WAS JUST AN EXAGGERATION. I think it's all very controlled, I just thikn there's a liberal, and frankly, more wise approach to it. I in no way was "painting a picture" like that, it was more light hearted than you guys are taking it...cool your jets.</p>
<p>Sorry, Tagran - we're obviously big fans of Grinnell - and we just want to be sure that its reputation isn't tarnished by a casual comment.</p>
<p>My D returned from her visit. She liked Grinnell a lot, especially the feeling that the kids were a family. She said it is a very close community. She had a nice host and a good time hanging out in the cafe and shopping in the thrift store in Grinnell. She really liked the people in the town of Grinnell and commented on how outgoing and friendly they are compared to the folks back in Ohio. Thought it was funny they call shopping bags sacks, though. She was disappointed in the food and in the fact that the biology building won't be done for two years. She also found the art department disappointing because there is no photo lab or graphic arts. She said she could be happy at Grinnell, but she has opted for Chicago mainly because of the isolation in Grinnell and certain better academic departments in Chicago. I'm glad she had such great choices. Best to all who chose Grinnell. I envy you that close, fun community.</p>
<p>Congrats to your D for making a decision. </p>
<p>My D was also disappointed by the lack of a photo lab at Grinnell.The administration seems very responsive, however, and my D seems sure that she can arrange to bring in Italian and a photo lab. We'll see! </p>
<p>Can we come visit in Chicago? My D was certain she wanted the isolation of a rural campus like Grinnell or Kenyon. I couldn't talk her into appying to U of C! In terms of visitng, I know I would enjoy Chicago more.</p>
<p>By all means. Maybe we could work out some sort of time share.</p>