looking for an affordable college where intellectual discussion is common

College Search & Selection
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<p>menloparkmom, thank you for responding. yes, she applied to a couple ivies and stanford last year, but she was realistic about her chances. I enjoyed very much the thread you suggested (read the first and last pages) because she had a similar experience except that she had safety schools and was rejected from most of them. We went thru the same questions about what we did wrong, what happened, and all sorts of speculation about a poison pill–it was painful and crazy. (Don’t worry: she wouldn’t re-apply to any school that rejected her if they were the only ones left in the world.) </p>

<p>So now where does she go to find a community of undergrads who are as interested in ideas as grades–that will cost us closer to 15K than 35K each year? Thanks for any help you can lend.</p>

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<p>What is your home state? In your price range with no need based aid, your D may need to get used to the idea of the state college that is 15 minutes away. I can tell you that it is as far away as you and she want to make it. I went to college 45 minutes from my house, and never went home until Thanksgiving my freshman year. Also, while quite a few of my classmates went there, I mostly only saw the ones I wanted to see. She does not need to socialize with them, and probably won’t have hardly any classes with them anyway. Plus… her actual classmates would now be a year ahead of her, right? So less chance even of classes together. Although that argument may not make her feel better about it…</p>

<p>She could also study abroad or at another campus on exchange if she wants to get away for a year. I just think the kind of options you are looking for in your price range are very few.</p>

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<p>The reality is the vast majority of students go to their state schools including many who fit the UChicago/ Cal Tech/ Swarthmore stereotype to a T. I go to a state flagship that accepts 80% of applicants and is not at all known for its intellectual atmosphere. Yet I often hear students excitedly debating the merits of a particular reading or interesting geology paper (this tends to be more grad students as it’s usually beyond the scope of undergrads). If your daughter does go to her state school she’ll probably have to work harder to find people as nerdy as she is, but I guarentee she’ll be able to find at least a few others interested in a wide range of subjects and who can deeply engage/challenge her outside of class. </p>

<p>Some suggestions on how to find them:
-go to public lectures from professors
-join clubs that focus on a specific academic subject
-don’t maintain a pretentious attitude about her peers
-take classes intended for majors (ex: rather than enrolling in a basic geology course take one intended for scientists and engineers)
-talk to the professor in office hours
-expand one’s definition of intellectual</p>

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<p>now its time to tell our story-
in 2005, when I was trying to find the right colleges for my son, I had read Andi’s sad story, and having a son that had many of the same intellectual gifts as Andison, but not nearly his musical talent, took the advise of many CC parents , and encouraged him to cast a wide net, as we needed FA and I knew, without a doubt, that he would want to go on to GS[ think PhD , not MBA, Law or MD]
DS was lucky enough to be accepted at many top Ivy level colleges, but with lousy FA [ this was before generous FA programs were started by HYPSC in 2007] he choose to go to USC, here in Calif, where he had been offered a full tuition scholarship. This was back in the days when USC still had the old, outdated reputation of being the “University of Spoiled Children”. I MADE him finish he application before DEC 1 , [even though it was not a first or second choice , and he was “sure” he would be accepted at Stanford, which did not happen], because that was the only way he might be considered for their full tuition scholarship.
While at USC he found PLENTY of “intellectual peers” in both the Honors Science and Honors Humanities “Thematic Options” programs. And these days- 7 years later- USC is on par with many top U’s for the overall quality of their undergraduate education.
He was able to do extensive [paid] research in the summers, and graduated with high honors and is now at CalTech working on his PhD. His close friends won GS admission’s at MIT and Princeton.
So encourage your DD to take Andi’s advise and aim “lower’”, AND show real interest when applying to private colleges this time- it is incredibly competitive out there, but someone of her intellectual interests will get the attention of top professors wherever she ends up.</p>

<p><a href=“http://dornsife.usc.edu/this-is-dornsife-honors-programs/[/url]”>http://dornsife.usc.edu/this-is-dornsife-honors-programs/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Hey OP, I want to suggest Agnes Scott College for your daughter. It’s a small women’s LAC in suburban Atlanta (Decatur), about 10 minutes from Emory. They have a neuroscience major and a strong cross-registration agreement with Emory, which has a top neuroscience program.</p>

<p>More importantly, they’re known for excellent financial aid, primarily to lure top students away from other great women’s colleges like Smith and MHC as well as top co-ed schools. With stats similar to your daughter’s I was offered a full-tuition scholarship (this was 10 years ago), and I have many friends from high school who were offered large merit offers from ASC.</p>

<p>CC suggested Vassar, Colgate, URochester, Tulane, Colby, Scripps, Claremont McKenna, Barnard, Whitman, Bucknell, Wellesley, Oberlin, Brandeis, Middlebury, Hamilton, Trinity College, Rhodes, and Macalester. Emory was suggested, but there’s also Oxford College of Emory University.</p>

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<p>Don’t discount honors programs at state schools. Programs vary but our honors program last year has students with midrange SAT of 1390-1470 (1429 average). Top scholarships winners average SAT was 1507. Plenty of smart people to hang around, lots of research/travel opportunities and ability to create own major. My D doesn’t have very top award, but scholarship with NMF puts overage money in bank every semester and hangs with a very smart crowd.</p>

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<p>One thing that hasn’t been mentioned here, which you should consider, is she may benefit from attending a University that has a medical school very close to the Undergraduate campus. Could open up a lot of research opportunities in neuroscience that might not be otherwise available.</p>

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<p>I am not sure the OP approaches his conumdrum correctly,</p>

<p>First of all, THIS is an assumption that does not correspond to the reality:</p>

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<p>You fill find that one can find peers --including intellectuals-- at about any school in the country, including the known party and football schools. Think that one famous QB who played on a national team made arrangements not to miss his Rhodes Scholar interview. On the other hand, if you were to venture on the Chicago CC forum, you will find plenty of pseudo-intellectuals that sound as dumb as doorknobs and visibly lack all common sense. And, fwiw, pseudo-intellectualism is the norm among teenagers who just emerged from our famed US education system. </p>

<p>Is there something more important than selecting based on a perception of intellectualism - that is probably non-existent or very present in different groups on the SAME campus. Yes, and you spelled it out:</p>

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<p>In the end, most decisions end up being a reflection of the family’s finances. Full tuition are not very prevalent, and being extremely selective is not a panacea for success in matching one’s academic ability to the finances. Making a selection based on “potential” abundance of “scholars” should come well after matching the finances and the possible curriculum.</p>

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<p>And here resides the biggest issue. Are you sure you completely addressed what went wrong? Why did the safety schools … reject her? By definition, a safety school is one that offers an academic and financial safety. It is not a “likely” school. It should be a safety. Why were the original applications poorly received? Was there something in the presentation that created discomfort on the part of the adcoms, or could it be that your lists of reaches, likely, and “sure thing” was too optimistic? </p>

<p>Please note that the above is not meant to criticize the approach, but to try to steer you in a better direction. I would highly suggest to dig deep in this site, and probably avoid all the people who did advise you this far. Obviously, you might not have a strong --or even decent-- GC. But that is also the norm over the exception. </p>

<p>I would also suggest to ask direct questions on this site, as such questions tend to elicit plenty of answers from people who lives through the process and survived it.</p>

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<p>“So now where does she go to find a community of undergrads who are as interested in ideas as grades–that will cost us closer to 15K than 35K each year?”</p>

<p>New College of Florida is one of the reigning bargains in this category. It’s a Florida state school that functions as a tiny, intellectually-rigorous liberal arts college. In every by-students-for-students guide I’ve read, the school is noted for a climate that fosters intellectual discussion both in and out of class. The few dozen senior thesis titles I’ve seen indicate they are consistently doing graduate-level work by senior year there.</p>

<p>Bonus: they have their own beach and a sailing club. How many schools with an “ivory tower” reputation can say that?</p>

<p>Before you look at the out-of-state tuition and panic, read up on their guaranteed scholarships. That will take $15,000 per year off of the bill. No requirements other than being a US citizen with decent time management skills.</p>

<p>The only potential snags I see are: they have neurobiology, but not neuroscience, and as a tiny school they won’t have the massive science resources of a much larger school. </p>

<p>However, their small size also means having the opportunity to do advanced research most students never begin doing until graduate school, and an intimate connection to professors who are doing work in the field. And NCF routinely sends students to top graduate programs.</p>

<p>Give it a look, it could be a great fit for her.</p>

<p>Now, with all that being said, don’t be excessively trusting of Net Price Calculators. When I went to Georgetown, it ended up costing $6500 per year less than my family initially expected due to a late-arriving scholarship that was awarded weeks after my acceptance letter arrived. You just don’t know until you know. So I recommend including a couple of “financial reach” schools in your DD’s round of applications, just in case one of them chooses to be generous.</p>

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<p>To be the beneficiary of such largesse and support is humbling. Thank you, folks. Let me take a minute to respond to and thank those I haven’t thanked so far. I will look at every school you recommend.</p>

<p>Mr.Mom, Rochester is on the list of schools to target. Very good school with good merit. And you are correct that need-based aid plunges around 150K.
SpiritManager, I’ve loved your posts on Lafayette. Keep them up. And the following applies to Grandison, too: just getting into an Ivy level would be very difficult for this child, as last year shows. Getting money of the kind I’m thinking of would be very very difficult, except maybe at Princeton. Cornell OOS, forget it.
Momrath, we’re looking at all those schools you’ve mentioned, and tk21769 we’re looking at some of those southern and Midwestern schools on Kiplinger’s list. It’s a great list for doing the search I’m doing. One note: because of their popularity, Richmond and Davidson have gotten hugely difficult to get big money from. I understand different schools have different policies for spending their money, and I’m not complaining.
Intparent, thank you for yet another posting. I am in complete agreement with you about distance being relative and thank you for pointing out that she’ll be a year behind her friends from high school. I’ll show her your post. It looks like that’s where she’s going.
Whenwhen, I was very glad to hear of a student’s perspective from a large state school. I will show her your post as well. I like very much your advice. It’s good advice for students everywhere. We are a social species, and most people’s education is improved by making contact if not friendships with as many students, faculty, and staff as they can.
Menloparkmom, you are right on target again. The brand names matter to so few people who matter and the difference between a brand and off-brand education is little to none. Having said that, we can now include USC among the brand names, you’re right, and consequently it has gotten incredibly difficult to get one of those full tuition scholarships today. I’ll take a look at it again, but USC might be as out of her merit reach as Duke. Great schools getting better all the time.
Juillet, I will have a look at Agnes Scott. I’m certainly aware of it but didn’t know it had money. Thank you for it and the other schools you mention from CC postings. I’ve looked at a lot of them.
Scmom12, I have not discounted state schools with honors programs, schools like Miami OH, OhioU, Ohio State, Maryland, Pitt, etc. If you’d like to mention “yours,” I’d be happy to look at it, too.
Mathyone, very good advice. The larger state schools I just mentioned all have that going for them, and it is a big selling point, as it is at Syracuse, Georgetown, Emory, etc.
DreamSchlDropout, I am now taking a look at New College. Thank you very much.
xiggi: I very much appreciate your critique of my thinking and our methodologies. It was one kind of advice I hoped for but couldn’t very well ask for. Last year, short of doing one-half the driving and proofreading essays, I didn’t have a lot to do with the process. She’s that kind of person. This year I insisted on more input and since she’s away doing her gap year stuff I got what I asked for. I began with the money question and everything has followed from that; however, I’d still like to give her as many choices as I can because until she spends a semester at Large State School she won’t be convinced she will find her soul-mates there. As for what went wrong at the safeties, I still don’t know. She was waitlisted in both cases and when I asked both regional recruiters if there was any glaring problem in the app they both said what you’d expect them to say.</p>

<p>I’ve looked at many more schools than I’ve named and have spread the net very wide. I will do so for a while longer. I feel she could get a good education at any of them, so it all comes back to money. I paid for my education in the early eighties by picking a large state school where tuition was less than $400 a semester. I worked a couple jobs and took out loans to pay r&b, and every semester the admin sent me a check for the cost of my tuition because I’d found a cadre of like-minded nerds and I fell in love with educating myself. She’ll be able to do that too; it’s just gonna cost her a lot more in loans because in the last 30 years we have as a nation given up on making state education affordable for every member of the state. Fortunately, it’s still affordable to me. Best of luck to all of you.</p>

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<p>That this will be the second time around add a layer of complexity. What she does during her gap year and how she presents her reasons for delaying a year will be significant.</p>

<p>Will she use the same recommendations or start anew? If the former, have you/she read them? In looking for “what went wrong” that’s where I’d start. </p>

<p>I remember the saga of andi’s son (which by the way had a happy conclusion). As I recall, the problem was a combination of bad luck and safeties that weren’t safe enough. The same may have been true for your daughter, but for sure you should get some outside help in reviewing her application – particularly the essays and recommendations – to uncover any potential weak points that you may have missed.</p>

<p>Many recommenders don’t like to share their submits, but I think in this case it would be reasonable to ask them to be specific about any negatives they plan to report. This goes for the counselor who writes the general school recommendation as well as the academic recommenders.</p>

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<p>Since you asked for suggestions of more large state universities with honors programs, here are a few:</p>

<ul>
<li>University of Texas at Austin, Plan II Honors - I’ve known many students of the program who loved it very much, including one of my oldest and dearest friends. Students have the option of being housed together in honors dorms if they wish, which can give it some of that small-LAC feel within the larger university context.</li>
<li>Cook Honors College at Indiana University, Pennsylvania - Donald Asher raves about this one in his book Cool Colleges. Much like Plan II, they utilize dedicated housing to establish a collegial environment for the honors students.</li>
<li>Barrett Honors College, Arizona State University - One of the largest and most fully-formed honors colleges in the country. A friend went here and said it really is a college-within-the-college experience.</li>
</ul>

<p>There are many others, but these are among the best-known programs that provide not only honors curriculum and honors degrees, but a true residential honors college.</p>

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<p>OP, didn’t mention school before since wasn’t sure what areas you are looking at. D is at university of SC honors (#1 public honors college if you care about rankings). Great experience (and also accepted duke, Davidson, UVA, wake forest and Furman but needed merit money which didn’t get from these.) D is currently taking zombie apocalypse class from pysch/neuroscience perspective as one of her “fun” classes.</p>

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<p>Washington and Lee offers a phenomenal scholarship (Johnson) that would make this small liberal arts college affordable. They pay the visit expenses for an interview weekend so if your student is among the finalists (and likely would be based on the info you shared), it would not cost anything to explore that option.</p>

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<p>^^actually have D at W&L also. Great school. Johnson scholarship very competitive but has great benefits.</p>

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<p>momrath, we have a couple other recommenders this year. the only recommender from both years is the counselor. i’ll ask him what he’s written, what the others have said. the kid doesn’t have any discipline problems, so… I’m hesitant to mention her safeties because there’s no point saying anything negative about the schools when it is just as likely that what D and I thought were safeties were more like 2nd tier schools who already had enough kids from her school. I don’t think we can ignore the fact that academically strong high school seniors are competing against kids from their own schools as much as anyone else. If, for example, Cornell’s already taken one athlete, maybe another or a legacy, from a class of 450 seniors, the rest of the, say, 25 applicants are now competing for 1 spot in 25 instead of 1 of 3 spots in 27. This is a numbers system, and sometimes I feel like an equities analyst.
DSD, I’ve looked at the ASU program, but thank you for pointing out the honors programs at Austin and IU of PA. One of the really nice things about most of these honors programs is that they provide honors housing.
scmom, if you hadn’t mentioned it I wouldn’t have looked at the eastern USC. Looks like a really nice program. thank you. and you and apollo6 are right on target about Washington and Lee. We’ll have to learn more about its more intellectual students. can you tell me anything about that, scmom?</p>

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<p>^^W&L is a school with very smart kids! Ds stats will make her competitive for admission but it depends on ECs and other things to get called in for Johnson scholar competition. That’s not a shoe in. D has loved her experience and really likes the psychology classes she has taken even though not a major. Not sure it has neuro as major but definitely as an emphasis. D has good friends in the major who have done research over summer there and abroad. Honor system is great. You can leave your computer in library and it’s there when you get back from lunch. Exams are self scheduled. Classes are small so there’s nowhere to hide and discussion is expected. </p>

<p>Students have lots of opportunities to engage intellectually. If politics is your thing then look into Mock Convention (even if not your thing since almost everyone is involved in some way). One of oldest in country, it is held in spring before national election for party out of power. Incredible accuracy rate for picking correct party candidate.</p>

<p>Definitely take a few minutes on website. While it is great for our D, I would definitely visit to get feel for fit. In all honesty, if your D is against sororities then may not be happy there. Very greek although all parties open. We do have a Johnson scholar from D’s school who does none of that and has excelled and made use of all the great perks that come with being a Johnson (travel abroad, research grants, etc). Feel free to PM if you want specifics.</p>

<p>Same with University of SC. Honors college is great. Definitely worth a look if money is an issue. D knows all professors in her department and loves discussion based classes. High stats/scores will get you good money plus OOS tuition waiver and you can stack a scholarship for NMF worth $6000/year for OOS students. Research grants and passport grants for study abroad are available. The neuroscience minor there can be approached from pysch or bio side.</p>