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<p>You obviously did not understand what I wrote.</p>
<p>The California publics are not unusual in having separate physics, math, and/or chemistry courses for biology majors and pre-meds, versus the ones for engineering majors. The biology major and pre-med versions are for “STEM majors” (since biology is a STEM major), but not for physics, math, chemistry, or engineering majors.</p>
<p>I’m glad my friend doesn’t come onto College Confidential. 
This is their academically stronger son between their two boys–more natural ability–yet their oldest got into the Coast Guard Academy with a 1900 after begin rejected from Airforce and Naval last year. I really think this kid can raise his SAT to 2200.</p>
<p>It’s so weird–my own kid has disabilities, but was able to get over 2200 pretty easily, just with a little focused practice on the harder math problems. This kid’s taken much more math than my son, who’s only doing pre-calc this summer. I think it must be knowing how to study smart for these tests.</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s ability that holds him back. I think they have no <em>idea</em> of how competitive it is, truly, even though kid goes to a very competitive high school that sends grads to top schools, I am sure. They are so far away from the College Confidential culture, you cannot imagine.</p>
<p>So–based on what you all are saying, math may be the best major, though I think he likes bio better. To them, a 680 was a good score, and I thought so, too. Yeah, it’s not by CC standards, but his SATs put him, even now before he retakes, in or above the average SATs of many of the UCs and SLO.</p>
<p>I had forgotten Wabash was all male.Not sure he’d like that.</p>
<p>I like Tulane for this guy. (Actually thinking about it for my own rising senior) Tufts and Carleton might be good reaches. Reed wouldn’t be a good fit. These are good reaches.</p>
<p>Will look at Sonoma State again, ucb. Might be a good safety.</p>
<p>So, we’ve got some good schools on the list. Would love some more Midwest, Northeast, Eastern Coast ideas.</p>
<p>Seems just a few more would be great.</p>
<p>I also think being a math major (and both his parents are/were math teachers) is maybe a better major than bio in the event he doesn’t go towards med school?? I know my oldest should have no problem getting a job when he graduates in two years with his math degree.</p>
<p><a href=“University Graduate Career Surveys - #69 by ucbalumnus - Career Opportunities & Internships - College Confidential Forums”>University Graduate Career Surveys - #69 by ucbalumnus - Career Opportunities & Internships - College Confidential Forums; can give some idea of the relative job prospects of math and biology majors at various schools.</p>
<p>Make sure to remind him to sign up for the UCR guaranteed admission program during June/July if he qualifies, can afford it, and is willing to go there, so that he can have a safety in the bag.</p>
<p>Definitely, ucb. I sent the mom the link. I’m guessing, even with the C, his UC gpa should qualify him. I think UCR is the up and coming UC. I have an acquaintance in grad school there and she raves about her advisor and the program (something like biochem).</p>
<p>What a great link on relative job prospects-thank you!</p>
<p>Check out Juniata in Pennsylvania. A Colleges the Change Lives colleges, strong in premed, good merit aid.</p>
<p>For UCs, agree that UCR has excellent program and is an easier admit than others.</p>
<p>Thank you, calla1. I have heard Juniata mentioned on CC, but have never looked deeper into its offerings.</p>
<p>ucb, what should I make of the differences in starting salaries from the same major but graduating from different institutions? For instance, Colo. State Univ. average salary for an electrical engineer is 60K and from SLO, it appears to be higher. Is this based on the degree or just where the student might have looked for a job.</p>
<p>Too hard to tell with MIT since they give a range of salaries rather than an average, but I trust their grads are doing well!</p>
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<p>Be careful with making cross-school comparisons, since survey methodology and reporting methodology can vary between the different schools’ surveys. Remember also that every school has a regional bias in recruiting, so differences in pay levels in different regions can affect cross-school comparisons.</p>
<p>For math in particular, it may be worth noting (when available) the types of employment or graduate study that students tend to aim for. Some schools tend to be heavy with finance/actuarial employment, others with students going to PhD programs, others with students going to high school math teaching or teaching credential programs, etc… The relative popularity of the various career destinations can affect the emphasis of the math department in terms of course and research opportunities.</p>
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<p>On page 25 of <a href=“https://gecd.mit.edu/sites/default/files/files/2013_GSS_Survey.pdf”>https://gecd.mit.edu/sites/default/files/files/2013_GSS_Survey.pdf</a> , the second column labeled “SB” (the bachelor’s degree abbreviation) appears to be the average pay found by employed bachelor’s degree graduates. For example, 37 employed math bachelor’s degree graduates averaged $77,378 (with range $10,000 to $135,000, while 19 employed biology bachelor’s degree graduates averaged $39,895 (with range $20,000 to $85,000). A few pages before are lists of employers for each major’s graduates.</p>
<p>Oh well, I was specifically thinking about my own son at MIT. I don’t think this student quite has the stats for MIT. </p>
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I recall my daughter’s conversation with this trustee kid at USC who lost his scholarship because of poor grades, she got 800 in bio with a C from her class, her teacher raised the grade to a B if she gets 5 on AP Bio and she did. While this student received A+ in Bio and got a score lower or around 650 for Bio. The difference is she went to a competitive high school where one of her classmates, who has a smidge higher in GPA than her in high school, was valedictorian at USC engineering school. I think it’s reality and not just CC standards.</p>
<p>I know a young man who is planning on med school who attends Univ of British Columbia. He is a Ca resident and while I don’t know the amount they are paying they have mentioned that it is a good deal compared to a UC. I know he is receiving all merit based aid. They were concerned about med school admissions coming from a Canadian school but the school reassured them that it is not a problem.
I also don’t know about med school acceptances but he might look into some of the WUE schools. My D got great merit based aid offers from both Montana schools. She did not end up applying to Univ of New Mexico but the rep we spoke to at the college fair led us to believe the cost was very affordable. </p>
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<p>One issue is that if he is not particularly good at standardized tests even if he knows the material well, the MCAT could be a major hurdle for getting into medical school. I.e. he may have to practice test taking techniques.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if it is a general pattern in the high school that top students tend not to score >700 in SAT reasoning sections and subject tests, then there may be some cause for concern about the quality of the high school courses. 680 is a good score, but getting into medical school probably requires more than being good at biology/chemistry/physics/math. Certainly he should try if he is strongly interested, but he should have realistic backup plans.</p>
<p>I agree that the student should major in math: better career prospects and better chances at a med school-worthy GPA. He’d still get to take some biology with the premed core: 2 semesters each of calculus (he already has them), English/Freshman seminar, biology, chemistry, physics, + one semester each of biochemistry, sociology, psychology, and a diversity-focused class, plus (recommended) neuroscience, ethics, further classes in the previous, a “less common” foreign language spoken by immigrant groups (hinese, Russian, Creole, etc). Student swould then need to have research/professional experience, recommendation letters, and of course the crucial element in addition to GPA and science GPA is the MCAT score.</p>
<p>The family should run the Net Price calculators for each school. Because of the mom’s small business, the results may not be accurate, but they’d give an idea.
HarveyMudd may be too much of a reach, but if he keeps going with the math and is well-rounded (retake the SAT Subject in Bio - for subjects, top schools expect 750+, and schools in the 30 to 60 range who look at the score expect a 700 since it’s supposed to be the student’s best subject - and add a foreign language or history or literature) he may have a shot with the sports. Pitzer if he’s interested in the social aspects of medicine and has something to substantiate that interest/claim (helping at a clinic, for instance). Both are 100% need met.
The family should look into the 100% need schools, especially St Olaf and Gettysburg which are the easiest ones to get into (although they should keep in mind that all the schools on the list are pretty hard to get into.) St Olaf has a summer partnership with the Mayo clinic and has a strong math program, including a semester for math majors in Budapest, plus something called “The science conversation” for sophomores, which is interdisciplinary and plays well for med school.
Goucher has decent premed classes and would be a safety but probably wouldn’t challenge him enough in math (there’s a possibility to take further classes at Johns Hopkins but it’s a shuttle ride away). Still a decent safety to keep in mind.
College of Charleston: it’s trying to find more boys, good Honors college for which he’d qualify based on SAT/GPA combo, hence honors scholarship possible (not a guarantee).
I second St Lawrence and Hobart&WilliamSmith.
Look into Grinnell for a realistic reach.
Carleton or Tufts are real reaches.</p>
<p>The kid should major in what he is interested in, and should not major in math unless he likes it. Math gets really hard in the upper level classes, and if you don’t enjoy it, may be very difficult. Not that many jobs for straight math majors, unless he would want to be an actuary or go into business. </p>
<p>How about Loyola Marymount - he may be eligible for merit and financial aid especially if he ups his SATs. Or Seattle University? LMU has water polo as a sport. Is he good enough to play in college?</p>
<p>He should decide what he wants to study and then look at schools that meet need and give merit aid and where his stats put him near the top. While going to the NE may be good, it is very expensive to travel across the country for holidays and breaks. </p>
<p>One concern is that he is getting very high grades, but not doing as well as those grades would suggest on the AP or subject tests. Some schools might look at that as an indication that the high school is not that competitive or has grade inflation. </p>
<p>He will get into something good and figure out what he wants to do. Many kids start out as premed and change their minds - either because they decide there is something else they want to do or they hit the wall on courses. </p>
<p>^mom2and: you don’t get 3 years ahead in math if you don’t like it :)</p>
<p>I agree with the concern between high grades and “relatively low” test scores. Is he first gen?
(Typically, you’d expect A//700, B+ to B//600, B-to C+//500, C and below//400 and below)
Did he go to the tests “cold” or prep?
He should work through number2.com and Sparksnotes at least, in order to score as high as he can.</p>
<p>Addendum: Whitman is an excellent college and has swimming.
I second Juniata if he’s serious about premed (it’s like a pre-health prep college - and check out “how my daughter made the most out of college”). He may want to add Dickinson, strong in the sciences and has swimming. (All the colleges listed so far have swimming). Florida has good swimming too 
- UMiami has a special agreement program with their medical school but they don’t have swimming, only diving.</p>
<p>I don’t know what to tell you about the discrepancies. This schools is ranked around 230 in the nation and around 40th in California. There’s a 73% participation in APs with an 73% pass rate (score of 3 or more). 44% of students are minority. (Disclaimer: I’m a homeschooler, and don’t know a lot about schools and their rankings. Would this qualify as a competitive school?</p>
<p>As a comparison, our local high school has a 32% AP participation with a 19% pass rater, and is 90% “minority” (that’s a misnomer!). Yet, our school has a higher academic performance index. I have no idea of what that means.</p>
<p>The mom teaches math at the high school and the dad runs a math business.</p>
<p>The mom has really eschewed the whole college admissions process until they contacted me. The older son did everything on his own, so they wanted some help with this son. And there are problems at home that I won’t go into. I would say that has contributed to some of the uneven performance, but it’s not something that will get talked about. </p>
<p>Thank you for all the great suggestions! These are terrific. I will organize a list and present it to them. I will communicate that the inconsistencies in his test scores and grades might be detrimental, but that we can build a good solid list of schools for him.</p>
<p>I don’t know how many NPC they have run, but they can do a lot this summer. He (like my son) has visited no schools, but hopefully, will be able to this summer.</p>
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In DS’s class in his year, their physics textbook happened to be written by a professor in CPSLO, presumably for CPSLO engineering majors.</p>
<p>At his school, I think there are 4 tracks of intro physics courses, from the hardest to the easiest. The track that used the textbook written by CPSLO professor is the third track one (i.e., there is another track that is the easiest.) But relatively few self-respecting premed students at his school would take that easiest one. The two hardest tracks are typically for physical science majors. I think the physics majors are not allowed to take the courses in the lowest two tracks. So, when students on the premed track are said to be the “the smartest students” just because they score an A, they most of time do not really compete against the real hardcore science majors. They are very focused and diligent; this is for sure. The smartest? This is really hard to prove because they do not take the courses together with those who likely become our next generation of scientists. Hey…they need to do other things like volunteering and “premed ECs” so they can not afford to devote all of their energy to studying science only.</p>
<p>Maybe some premed students who are going into MD/PhD programs may take the class on the second hardest track, but they still rarely take the hardest track - that hardest course is likely reserved for those very few students who are generally professor’s most favorite - even though the professor may not give these students very good grades.</p>
<p>Some phenomenon in college then becomes somewhat strange - likely very different from what high school students are used to. Premeds, who often take the most rigorous classes when they are high schoolers, generally do not take the most rigorous class. They get the best grades in whatever level of class they take. They may take the engineering level class (at least at DS’s college.) But the engineering level classes are considered as at a level lower than those classes for physics majors. Even the design of the lab and the lab equipment are different between the higher ranked physics major course and the lower ranked course. One of DS’s friends was a physics major (who continued on the PhD program at Cal on the other coast.) He really felt that he received the short end of the deal just because he was a premed!</p>
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<p>cc standard are irrelevant. What’s important is the scores of those high schoolers that successfully run the premed gauntlet in college. USC, for example, (since Dr. G mentioned it a couple of times), has a lot of really high testers – USC buys them with tuition discounts. In addition to high testers, successful premeds tend to work really hard in academics – a C in AP Chem would be rare. (My future Lit son scored an A in AP Chem at a higher-ranked HS.)</p>
<p>Premed competition is brutal in Calif: gunners everywhere! :)</p>
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<p>For reference, there are 1,304 public regular high schools in California, according to <a href=“http://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/sd/cb/cefenrollgradetype.asp”>http://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/sd/cb/cefenrollgradetype.asp</a> . This does not include 270 “community day schools”, 247 “alternative schools”, and 486 “continuation schools”.</p>
<p>The API versus ranking differences mean that the API and whatever ranking you are referencing are measuring different things. API is based on some state standardized tests. USNWR high school rankings are based on standardized test performance relative to their states, the same for black, Latino, and low income students, and AP/IB participation and performance. Newsweek high school rankings are based graduation rate, college acceptance rate, AP/IB/AICE tests per student, SAT/ACT scores, AP/IB/AICE scores, and percentage of students enrolled in AP/IB/AICE courses.</p>
<p>Don’t bash me, but I know 2 male UG students who shifted to nursing programs, PA & NP. They will do well in nursing schools, not run up huge debts, and be very employable. I just want to mention another option. </p>
<p>What about Rhodes?</p>