<p>you guys are so cool,i mean how could u apply for universities overseas? whatever,good luck to you all.i am applying northwestern under ED and as an international student ,i can't get any form of financial aid under ED.</p>
<p>First of all, probability is not particularly useful when we are talking about one specific event. This particular candidate happened to get caught and there are a number of ways that it may have happened. Strange things can happen when trying to compute the probability of an event happening given that some other low probability event already has happened.</p>
<p>Most professions have international conferences that are attended by representatives from many countries. In this case, the appropriate bodies are the Association of University Administrators in the UK and the American Association of College Registrars and Admissions Officers in the US. These two are international reciprocal partners and regularly send representatives to each others' meetings and conferences, as well as to events held outside of either country. Oh, yes, there are meetings going on several times a year at which Brown and Oxford could be talking, either formally or informally.</p>
<p>Looked at another way, fully a third of Oxford's students and 9% of Brown's come from abroad. It would be irresponsible for their admissions departments to ignore what is going on in other countries.</p>
<p>I will grant you that the guidance counselor is one of the more likely scenarios, but it is far from the only one.</p>
<p>Why should it scare you that a guidance counselor would be looking out for the best interest of the majority of his or her charges over the interest of someone who is apparently attempting to game the system at their expense? It seems to me that a guidance counselor who becomes aware of this type of situation has a responsibility to act.</p>
<p>There are conferences, but international ones? Hmm, in any case, even during such conferences which are probably held maybe once a year, exchanging specific applicant information is probably not a priority. I would imagine they'd be more focused on best practices or networking or learning from one another in general. Even in ongoing correspondence thereafter, would they have the luxury of time and energy to exchange applicant lists unless an emerging and dangerous trend of rogue applicants compels them to?</p>
<p>Top students from UK and US overwhelming apply to the world-class universities in their own respective countries. There's no reason for a typical top UK student to apply to the US, especially when most Brits actually think UK higher education is better than that in the US. Same goes for US kids. So, ironically, UK and US adcoms probably talk less to each other than to other countries.</p>
<p>It's scary to me because, after seeing students day in day out, year in year out, growing and maturing and interacting with them, I wouldn't have the heart to take away BOTH the student's lifelines any more than it's necessary for my school's good. I would do my job to pacify Brown which is a popular choice in any school, of course, but unless many of my students actually apply to Oxford, I would just let the occasional rogue applicant keep his place there. I actually don't think Oxford gives a damn about America's quirky application process and contracts - they probably acted on the kid for the sake of appearances.</p>
<p>Oxford may not have cared at all, but Brown probably cared a whole lot. The GC, if indeed it was the GC in this case, was probably worried a whole lot more about the possibility that Brown would blacklist his or her high school, which colleges have been known to do based on a single ED no-show.</p>
<p>Many colleges share annual lists of ED acceptances with other institutions that they consider competitors. Even if Brown did not provide their list directly to Oxford, it is possible that Oxford obtained a copy of this list through other means. It is also possible that Oxford would have second thoughts about the character of one of its applicants given that information. Whether they acted out of conviction or for appearances' sake is immaterial given that they have already acted.</p>
<p>I don't think we are talking about lifelines here. A student good enough to get into both Brown and Oxford could still get into many other quite good schools, even schools that know he or she stiffed Brown, even as late as a couple of months before the start of classes. Such schools may be a few notches lower in prestige, but someone that smart should realize the stakes involved. It would indeed scare me to find that the GC acted as they did without explaining the situation to the student and first giving them the chance to do the right thing on their own. As it is, I have no way of knowing what happened or if a GC was even involved, so speculation along those lines is pointless.</p>
<p>Do you mean that Brown would have blacklisted the HS unless the GC also informed Oxford of the applicant's transgression? That seems a little severe to me.</p>
<p>Would you happen to know of a website or a thread on CC that talks about how colleges share ED lists? Not that I don't believe it happens, but the mechanism seems pretty interesting. </p>
<p>He probably could have got into other top schools, but again, if Brown would share ED lists, it might also share blacklists of applicants. Not to mention that he had already withdrawn all his applications to US colleges when he got Brown ED, so he'll only go to college a year later at best. Top UK universities would be closed to him too, since the UK admission process appears to be much more centralized than the US. </p>
<p>Well, the GC doesn't seem to have given the student a chance to do the right thing, since he didn't give up either university voluntarily. Maybe there just wasn't any more room for the student to put things right.</p>
<p>double J... ED is like marriage. You may break the contract, but as TokenAdult's post indicates, only for financial hardship. And like (some) marriage/other woman, if one attempts to cheat, and is caught, <em>both</em> the ED school and the other school (the other woman) withdraw their affections. I don't remember the details contained in the myriad posts about ED, but the odds of getting caught are better than 50/50.</p>
<p>Boston College does not allow its EA applicants to apply ED to other schools.</p>
<p>The admissions world is a lot smaller than you would think. Many of the adcoms have worked at various high schools before, gone to other colleges and they know each other. Coincidences do occur. If a kid breaks his ED commitment, the natural question is going to be why from the college that gave him that ED acceptance. It is also perfectly natural for the adcom to call the GC to ask about the situation. You would also be surprised who these adcoms are, who their friends and family are. I know several folks who work in admissions, and my neighbors here have family and friends in admissions. The GCs at my sons' school knows many of the personnel who work in admissions at a number of college, on a personal as well as working basis. </p>
<p>I remember one kid who was caught lying on his ECs because he claimed a huge role in organizing a Walkathon/fundraiser here. The admissions officer was at that fund raiser though the college was hours away since her family was active in it. There are a lot of coincidences and overlap in lives. Do not underestimate them.</p>
<p>Enter "early decision blacklist" in the search function here at CC and several prior discussions will be listed.</p>
<p>Not all schools would care about a student having stiffed Brown on ED, particularly if they do not consider themselves a direct competitor for students. Every year in May nacacnet.org publishes a list of colleges that are still accepting applications for classes starting in August/September of the same year. There are usually some very good schools on that list, although not Ivy League or USNWR top 50. The student in question could probably have gone to almost any of the schools on that list without having missed a year.</p>
<p>The GC, if there was one, might have given the student the chance to do the right thing and the student could have refused, thus prompting the GC to do what they thought was necessary. Unless we have more information, it is impossible to tell.</p>
<p>DOES ANYONE KNOW: If a school has NON-BINDING Early Acceptance, but the website says, "Early acceptance is for those who know that our college is their top choice", is it in any way dishonest to apply EA if you want to keep your options open, but the school is definitely a top choice? If you love the school, but also need to see how this whole economy thing shakes out?</p>
<p>Susanna:</p>
<p>non-binding EA is just that, non-binding. Go ahead and apply and wait to compare other offers in the spring.</p>
<p>BassDad: i don't think anyone in the right mind would refuse such a precious chance from his GC to put things right and avoid getting screwed over majorly, so i was assuming that he wouldn't have refused such a chance. but you're right, it's impossible to tell, but it'd be very interesting to know.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse, i don't dispute that the admissions world is small, but i was talking about Oxford. surely the atlantic ocean is a large enough barrier to the coincidences and overlaps that you speak of?</p>
<p>but still, just because people know each other and the world is small doesn't mean such information is necessarily exchanged. the risks are always being overstated on CC, but of course that's a good deterrent.</p>
<p>what happened to that fundraiser fraud in the end?</p>
<p>Nope. At Sons' school, there are a couple of kids who go to Oxford each year. In fact one of the college counselor's kids goes there. In addition about 20% of the teaching staff and administrators are British and most of them graduated from an Oxford college. This is just one such school. You don't think that there is a lot of back and forth between Oxford and US elite colleges? </p>
<p>The fundraiser fraud has become a true urban legend around here, as the kid was caught out in his major exaggeration which was on his apps. The GC was called in on it. He chose to do a year off between high school and college, and ended up going to a large state university where he now may be a senior. It is not the end of the world when you make such mistakes, but it does but a major crimp on any short term plans. Maybe it is a good thing as we are all in too much of a hurry these days. And if it was a true lesson learned, it is a valuable one for anyone to learn. But why learn that way?</p>
<p>Bassdad, there are colleges on that list that may still uphold the ED contract as they too have ED contracts. It is important to all schools that have ED that the contract is sacrosanct. Though there are schools that are just too busy to track things down, if it comes to an adcom's attention, it is usually an issue.</p>
<p>I have personally been involved in an ED fracas, that was resolved amicably and I can tell you that it is even a pain in the neck among other places to resolve one of these thing with good reason to have to back out. A lot of pitfalls in backing out even honorably with all parties in agreement.</p>
<p>cpt, I agree. There are also lots of schools on the list that would accept an Ivy League caliber student with the ability to pay some reasonable fraction of the tuition, room and board charges under worse circumstances than these. My point is that the student would not have had to sit out a year unless they chose to do so, even as late as May or June for fall admissions. Perhaps my saying "almost any of those schools" was too strong and should have been something more like "many of those schools."</p>
<p>
[quote]
surely the atlantic ocean is a large enough barrier to the coincidences and overlaps that you speak of?
[/quote]
Let me introduce you to a brand new, spiffy invention. It's called the Internet. Last I looked, it spans the Atlantic.</p>
<p>Don't think for a moment that there's a "list" on paper or in e-mail and an individual sits there and compares that list to the list of their applicants. It doesn't need to be nearly as time-consuming. All that's needed is an electronic file uploaded into a database to which the other schools have access. They would then be able to search for an applicant's name and other identifying info as easily as you can search for a poster's name here on CC.</p>
<p>Colleges know technology, too.</p>
<p>This thread is pretending to be a discussion of admissions policies. But the real issue here isn't ED, whether it's bound, what admissions committees will do if they find out an applicant is "cheating" etc., it's that the OP is afraid of the big unknown future and is trying to make himself as snug and secure as possible. Kind of like Kafka's mole in his Burrow....</p>
<p>double j, I know it's scary as h*ll to take the leap of international admissions, to put what seems to be your entire fate in some anonymous judge's hands with the click of a mouse. You want to do everything you can to be absolutely certain that if your dream can't come true, at least a tolerable pseudo-dream will. Applying ED to GW will not give you this security. ED applicants have a marginal advantage over RD only because the pool is small and admissions doesn't have to worry that the numbers they project for matriculation will be off. It's doubtful you would be magically accepted in the early decision rounds if you wouldn't in the regular one. Conversely, it's doubtful that you would be rejected RD if they would have wanted you in ED.</p>
<p>ED isn't like getting a free television from Walmart on Black Friday; it isn't a first-come first-serve free-for-all. They plan these things out, project their numbers and leave room for the up-and-comers (kind of like scoring in the Olympics). There's no point in risking your integrity or your future in Scotland for the small reassurance having an acceptance letter in hand on Christmas will give you.</p>
<p>Also, you should come to terms with what would happen if none of your wonderful plans work out exactly. There's a good chance they will, but it seems that you're stuck on the idea that any alternative "college you don't want to go to" will absolutely stink. Seriously, it won't. Three years ago I was convinced I would die if I couldn't go to pretty, pretty Amherst--then they sent my acceptance letter folded up with a piece of paper asking for $40k a year (family income: $80k, with two brothers on the brink of college as well). #2 choice Wellesley did the same...and Bowdoin.... Naturally parents said no and I'm at a Big State U with deep endowment pockets...and it's not so bad.</p>
<p>If you don't get into your Scottish schools or GW, don't sweat it; do stellar in undergrad and try again in four years. Or, if you're not into the idea of grad school, go to a school with an extensive international outreach program and study a year abroad, or get an internship in Great Britain.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Let me introduce you to a brand new, spiffy invention. It's called the Internet. Last I looked, it spans the Atlantic.</p>
<p>Don't think for a moment that there's a "list" on paper or in e-mail and an individual sits there and compares that list to the list of their applicants. It doesn't need to be nearly as time-consuming. All that's needed is an electronic file uploaded into a database to which the other schools have access. They would then be able to search for an applicant's name and other identifying info as easily as you can search for a poster's name here on CC.</p>
<p>Colleges know technology, too.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>that's only if they use technology. i never discounted the effect of the Internet either, but before the Internet there were telephone and fax to provide instant communications, so why is the Internet to groundbreaking? they don't necessarilym ake use of all their tools.</p>
<p>I remember how someone asked a panel of admissions counselors this question this year at the QB conference. Their replies were: "we travel together on road trips, admissions conferences, we know each other by name, we email each other, don't for a second think that we won't find out if you ED at multiple schools cuz we will." </p>
<p>These were like UChicago, Northwestern, Stanford, Yale admissions people too.</p>
<p>maybe it's scare tactics, maybe not. why would you take their word for it?</p>