Loopholes in Early Decision?

Applying to College
41

<p>Why take their word indeed when a bit of thought about the process may well lead you to the same conclusion? </p>

<p>First off, what they say is plausible given the amount of travel expected of the typical admissions rep. They attend conferences and college fairs, travel to high schools, conduct interviews and are on the road for nearly half the calendar year. (Want to become familiar with every high school, budget hotel and cheap restaurant in a six-state area? Become an admissions rep.) They may or may not get around to talking about one specific person, but they will talk with each other. A lot.</p>

<p>Next, if you are going to play that game rationally, you balance what you stand to lose if caught against what you stand to gain if not, then factor in the probability of getting caught. If applying ED to more than one school, you will certainly be caught if more than one of them accepts you because you will only be able to attend one. If you are not accepted by any of them, then you gained nothing at all and the whole exercise was futile anyway. The only case where something is actually gained without the certainty of being caught is when an applicant is accepted to precisely one ED school where they would not have been accepted from the RD pool. Therefore, it seems to me that the probability of being caught starts out fairly high and increases with each additional ED application. As we have seen in this thread, the downside can be pretty harsh. When there is more to be lost than gained and the probability of losing is high, it is usually best not to play that game.</p>

<p>Additionally, the admissions reps are not the only ones who may catch you at this. You have guidance counselors who are not even supposed to sign off on more than one ED application, ultra-competitive students and/or parents who may think ratting you out gives them a better chance of getting off a wait list, and teachers who may get suspicious if you insist that you must have a letter of recommendation to more than one school in the month of October.</p>

<p>Finally, there is the real possibility that your actions may rebound to harm others who were blameless. This may not concern someone who is only thinking of themselves, but that kind of person would be the first to scream if they found out that someone else had ruined any chance they might have had.</p>

42

<p>
[quote]
Why take their word indeed when a bit of thought about the process may well lead you to the same conclusion?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>As you said, it's a thought process is a thought process is a thought process. What you and I think may not be true, and one of us might actually be wrong.</p>

<p>
[quote]
First off, what they say is plausible given the amount of travel expected of the typical admissions rep. They attend conferences and college fairs, travel to high schools, conduct interviews and are on the road for nearly half the calendar year. (Want to become familiar with every high school, budget hotel and cheap restaurant in a six-state area? Become an admissions rep.) They may or may not get around to talking about one specific person, but they will talk with each other. A lot.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, this takes on the same line of reasoning and rationalization I see in almost every multiple-ED thread. Admission reps do this and this, go here and there, know each other and therefore: 1) talk a lot, and 2) would surely talk about person X. What I think is that, unless admission reps agree to make a special and determined effort to exchange comprehensive lists of ED admittees in the middle of the admissions season, they'd not gonna have the time or inclination for casual conversation, especially when they'd be stuck in office reading apps the whole day and sitting in on admission committees - much less drop the occasional applicant name or two. Again, this makes sense too if you think about it, but I'm not going to claim it as fact, simply because I can't.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Next, if you are going to play that game rationally, you balance what you stand to lose if caught against what you stand to gain if not, then factor in the probability of getting caught. If applying ED to more than one school, you will certainly be caught if more than one of them accepts you because you will only be able to attend one.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In this situation, there'd still be a way for a rogue applicant to wheedle out of one agreement, simply by claiming financial difficulties or do whatever the hordes of rogue applicants have done before to get out of it. Not that it's gonna be easy, of course, especially if you have a good GC who could provide the vital link between the two ED schools.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The only case where something is actually gained without the certainty of being caught is when an applicant is accepted to precisely one ED school where they would not have been accepted from the RD pool. Therefore, it seems to me that the probability of being caught starts out fairly high and increases with each additional ED application. As we have seen in this thread, the downside can be pretty harsh. When there is more to be lost than gained and the probability of losing is high, it is usually best not to play that game.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That definitely makes sense, but only if the probability of getting caught is high, like if the applicant doesn't have a good escape plan or if the applicant's HS is very strict.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Additionally, the admissions reps are not the only ones who may catch you at this. You have guidance counselors who are not even supposed to sign off on more than one ED application,

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That would depend on how competent or honest the GC is.

[quote]

ultra-competitive students and/or parents who may think ratting you out gives them a better chance of getting off a wait list,

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Anyone idiotic enough to tell fellow competitors about it shouldn't even be playing this game.

[quote]

and teachers who may get suspicious if you insist that you must have a letter of recommendation to more than one school in the month of October.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>One could always get a different of teachers to write for each school, and should choose them carefully. Try not to ask teachers who are in the same clique, for example. It could work. </p>

<p>Anyway, I'm not advocating that anyone try to game the system. I just don't like conventional wisdom, and this thread IS about loopholes anyway :D</p>

43

<p>I did not argue that admissions reps "2) would surely talk about person X" and in fact specifically left open the possibility that they would not. I know that some of this goes on undetected because it is impossible to catch everyone. I think that people who play this game tend to underestimate the probability of getting caught, given the technology available to admissions departments, and also underestimate the amount of information that gets shared among schools, either officially or unofficially.</p>

<p>At least some schools have been reported to exchange comprehensive lists, but I have never held one in my hands or accessed one on my computer, so I cannot tell you for sure that it does happen. I have seen admission reps from different schools hanging around together at my kids high school, talking business before and after information sessions. I have seen them doing the same at college fairs. I know that they sometimes change employers, taking a similar position at a different school. As others have stated, they need not read long lists from several other schools, just use their laptop to search through some files. They can even be doing other things while the laptop does its work, so it need not take much of their time to check.</p>

<p>As cptofthehouse has related, even those who have legitimate excuses draw a lot of scrutiny when backing out of an ED acceptance. The admissions reps will definitely give you lots of attention in that situation making it very likely that they find out about the other ED offer and notify the other school after the fact if not before. </p>

<p>The applicant has no way of knowing a priori that he or she will be accepted by one and only one ED school. Let's look at possible outcomes of submitting multiple ED applications:</p>

<p>1) Student is accepted nowhere
Benefits to applicant: none
Harm to applicant: wasted effort and applications fees if applications were made to schools that they would not have applied to RD, possibility of being caught and subject to penalties
Harm to others: created extra work for admissions departments and possibly for guidance counselors and writers of letters of recommendation, possibility of others from same high school being rejected without further consideration by one or more of the colleges involved</p>

<p>2A) Student accepted by first choice school and no others
Benefit to appllicant: none, since he or she would have applied there ED anyway
Harm to applicant: wasted effort and applications fees if applications were made to schools that they would not have applied to RD, possibility of being caught
Harm to others: created extra work for admissions departments and possibly for guidance counselors and writers of letters of recommendation, possibility of others from same high school being rejected without further consideration by one or more of the colleges involved</p>

<p>2B) Student accepted by lower choice school and no others
Benefit to applicant: Acceptance probability marginally higher than in RD round.
Harm to applicant: Applicant gives up any chance at being accepted at a higher choice school in the RD round unless they can prove financial hardship, even then they will face increased scrutiny. wasted effort and applications fees if applications were made to schools that they would not have applied to RD, possibility of being caught
Harm to others: created extra work for admissions departments and possibly for guidance counselors and writers of letters of recommendation, possibility of others from same high school being rejected without further consideration by one or more of the colleges involved</p>

<p>3A) Student accepted by more than one school, including top choice
Benefit to applicant: none
Harm to applicant: At a minimum will have to prove financial hardship to one school, at worst could wind up with all acceptances revoked.
Harm to others: prevented one or more students from receiving ED acceptance, created extra work for admissions departments and possibly for guidance counselors and writers of letters of recommendation, possibility of others from same high school being rejected without further consideration by one or more of the colleges involved</p>

<p>3B) Student accepted by more than one school, not including top choice
Benefit to applicant: Acceptance probability marginally higher than in RD round.
Harm to applicant: At a minimum will have to prove financial hardship to one school, at worst could wind up with all acceptances revoked. Applicant gives up any chance at being accepted at a higher choice school in the RD round unless they can prove financial hardship, even then they will face increased scrutiny. wasted effort and applications fees if applications were made to schools that they would not have applied to RD, possibility of being caught
Harm to others: prevented one or more students from receiving ED acceptance, created extra work for admissions departments and possibly for guidance counselors and writers of letters of recommendation, possibility of others from same high school being rejected without further consideration by one or more of the colleges involved.</p>

<p>It still looks like a lot of work for not much gain to me, even in the limited cases where there is some benefit to the applicant and the applicant does not get caught. If you insist on looking for loopholes, there have to be ones that have a better cost to benefit ratio.</p>

44

<p>Good analysis, BassDad.</p>

45

<p>
[quote]
I think that people who play this game tend to underestimate the probability of getting caught, given the technology available to admissions departments, and also underestimate the amount of information that gets shared among schools, either officially or unofficially.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>People could also overestimate the probability, which happens often on CC.</p>

<p>But whichever way the probability points, the bottom line is that it's always not wise AND not right to try to game ED. I do not agree with the use of scare tactics, or at the very least, exaggeration of the risks to deter applicants; because whatever the risks, they should always avoid gaming the system, not for fear of getting caught, but just because it's wrong. But this is the real world, so whatever works is necessary.</p>

<p>Still, I take issue with how you describe the following as "harm:</p>

<p>
[quote]

Harm to applicant: wasted effort and applications fees if applications were made to schools that they would not have applied to RD, possibility of being caught and subject to penalties
Harm to others: created extra work for admissions departments and possibly for guidance counselors and writers of letters of recommendation, possibility of others from same high school being rejected without further consideration by one or more of the colleges involved

[/quote]
</p>

<p>because you ultimately attend only 1 college, all of the above would also ultimately be applicable to, say, 14 of the 15 colleges that you legitimately apply to. but that's hardly harmful or wrong, isn't it?</p>

46

<p>double j you need to apply regular decision and you must find a few good safety school as a back up.</p>

47

<p>It is neither harmful nor wrong to apply to colleges legitimately. I might question whether it is possible for one person to apply to fifteen different schools legitimately, but that is another discussion for another time. </p>

<p>Note that I used the phrase "if applications were made to schools that they would not have applied to RD" in describing the harm to the applicant. I considered that an applicant might have filed a legitimate application and was trying to limit the statement of harm to those cases where the applicant was attempting to game the system to gain admission to schools at which they perceived that they would only be accepted in the ED round and would not even have bothered to apply RD. Perhaps I should have been more explicit on that point.</p>

<p>The extra work for admissions departments comes in a couple of forms, including the need to review applications that they would not otherwise have received had someone not been gaming the system, and the need to spend time tracking down and dealing with the cheaters. The potential extra work for guidance counselors comes when they have to deal with the aftermath of someone having been caught. The potential extra work for letter writers comes from your own suggestion that those applying to multiple ED schools may well need more people to write recommendations than someone applying legitimately.</p>

<p>Regarding probability of detection, we can argue about that all you like but, until someone comes up with a way to actually calculate or measure said probability, all that we can be sure of is that some will overestimate and some will underestimate it. Given the nature of the beast, it is going to be hard to devise an experiment that will give conclusive results without really annoying a lot of college admissions officers.</p>

<p>You may well be right if you contend that the majority of people overestimate the probability of getting caught. Most of them, however, do not file multiple ED applications. Recall that I said, "the people who play this game tend to underestimate the probability." I still think that people who file multiple ED applications tend to underestimate and rationalize, which is why I believe that this is less a case of "scare tactics" than a case of a "word to the wise."</p>

48

<p>Well now, we've hit on the very reason everyone screams about the inequities introduced by ED.</p>

<p>The school gains control of yield by teaming with rich kids, at the expense of the 80% of the rest who need a decent FA package.</p>

<p>Kudos to Harvard for exiting this abusive train.</p>

49

<p>I understand your point, DunninLA, but I have a different perspective. I think for some kids who have great grades/scores/ECs and very limited means, ED to a limited number of highly generous, heavily endowed colleges can be a real benefit. If a student's family has limited income, no-or-very low assets and that student is a compeptitive applicant at a school that has some of the best financial aid in the country including a no-loans policy... ED might give them some small advantage in getting accepted to such a school at all.</p>

<p>I think ED is a very important tool for certain kids to make an unequivocal statement to a college of their committment to attend if accepted.</p>

<p>The problem is that financial aid policies are often shrouded in mystery. If all colleges that offer an ED application option had a dedicated calculator on their website that uses their OWN institutional methodology to compute aid, then students could know what they're committing to upfront and make decisions about where to apply when based on a pretty reliable prediction of what the aid will likely be. Why don't colleges do this? Especially if they are serious about not wanting ED to disadvantage students with financial need. There are a few schools that have such a calculator online, but only a few.</p>

<p>Harvard and Princeton can more easily drop ED because they know going in that they are very likely to be anyone's top pick, even if that student applied to 15 other schools. Most colleges however have no way of knowing who is really committed to attending without an option like ED.</p>

50

<p>DunninLA:</p>

<p>Have you seen any data from Harvard that this year's class is any different than last year's class? (Pell Grantees might be a good proxy, since they can't be influenced by the new $180k finaid Plan)</p>

<p>Have you seen any data from Princeton that this year's class is any different than last year's class? (Nothing of note on the Princeton cc thread except pres releases and spin.)</p>

<p>The only real data published is from UVa which shows an increase of six more poor students over last year under ED.</p>

<p>IMO admissions to highly selective colleges 'advantages the advantaged' regardless of ED/EA/RD.</p>

51

<p>okay, so I need some advice... I recently visited Vanderbilt, and fell in love with it. I would LOVE to apply ED, but, of course, finances are what is holding me back. My parents are recently divorced, and I live with my mom, who does not make a whole lot of money ( this year in particular she was unemployed for a month or so) so I am assuming my fin aid will be generous. I am really nervous that I will be missing out on a huge oppurtunity by waiting to apply RD to Vanderbilt, considering my stats are average, if not below average, compared to those that were accepted last year. So, I guess my real question would be How big of a risk is it to apply ED when you are depending on financial aid?</p>

52

<p>It really depends, college77. I know that's a frustrating answer, but it's true. Your parents being divorced, and your mother's lower income is not going to advantage you because Vanderbilt uses the Profile form in addition to the FAFSA (federal financial aid form), and the Profile will want to know also your father's income and assets. It is expected he will contribute, too, even if he hasn't agreed to do so.</p>

<p>So while I am not one to discourage all students with financial need to forego ED applications in all cases, in your situation it does look like it wouldn't be wise.</p>

53

<p>double J why should you consider the loopholes? is that you think you will be more likely to be admitted?
well thats not what we should do with AO. i mean to refuse the ED decision.
of course scottish college is a good excuse, but youve your idea what you are doing before applying to GWU.
so be honest man, we will support you if you give up that idea lol</p>

54

<p>Many GCs and Adcoms have very close working relationship. I know for fact my daughter's GCs have conference calls with Adcoms to go over applicants a few weeks before decisions are made. We got a fairly good sense where our daughter was going to be accepted before we were notified. Two schools that she was waitlisted at told her GC they didn't think my daughter would go, but they probably could make it happen if she wanted a spot at their schools. Another thing GCs would do is to notify all RD schools if a student is accepted to an ED school. Some prep schools would go further by allowing students to apply to one other RD school after being accepted to an EA school. They like to get students with special hooks out of the way to give other students a better chance.</p>

<p>GC's reputation is very important to himself and to the student body he is responsible for. A good GC would not let one student ruin other students' chance of getting into top tier schools.</p>

55

<p>
[quote]
Many GCs and Adcoms have very close working relationship.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Confirming this, I know from my son's high school guidance counselor that it is part of her JOB to visit lots of college admission officers and discuss with them the particular characteristics of the high school. And on the other hand, it is the job of admission officers (whom I have met in great number) to meet high school counselors and understand each high school and how the high schools compare. Plenty of individuals have first a job in a college admission office and then a job as a high school college counselor, so a lot of people have perspective on both sides of this issue. NO ONE is looking to put more loopholes in a system that is supposed to identify young people who genuinely prefer one college to all others.</p>

56

<p>What if you apply somewhere ED and then decide to pull out BEFORE the school has made a decision? Are you still unable to apply anywhere else RD?</p>

57

<p>^^ Yes. It's only after you get the decision that you are bound by it.</p>

58

<p>Absolutely with the GCs' relationships with the adcoms. You may not be the only one from your high school who applied to a certain college. If you are thinking of backing out ED from that school, your GC is going to know about it. Many schools will insist that you write your other colleges and let them know you have been accepted ED when it happens, and if they are working on getting other students accepted, they will certainly have you taken off the list for consideration from other colleges once you are accepted ED. Reneging on ED is filled with risks even if you have a good reason for backing out.</p>

59

<p>If I apply restrictive early action to BC, but do not get accepted, but get placed into the regular decision pool can I THEN apply ED 2 to another school? I think that would be fair?</p>

60

<p>2 year old thread tribegirl. You should start a new post</p>