Low GRE scores and GPA...the path to ivy league?

[js911]

<p>While you have experience in IT, I’m not sure how well that will serve you going into computer science. They quite different fields, and CS grad school will expect you to have a decent grasp of the theory taught in undergrad. Have you taken any actual CS courses before?</p>

<p>Also, as others have said here, the GRE is a very minor part of your application. It is not the SAT/ACT of grad school, and many universities won’t consider it much in their actual decision. That said, a 480 on the quantitative shows a bit of a hurdle… it’s the one section on GRE that is somewhat objective, and it tests high school level math. There’s really no easy way to say it, but CS grad programs won’t consider a GRE Q score of 700+ as impressive; they will be surprised (in a bad way) to see anything much lower.</p>

[Serric]

<p>
[QUOTE=Josh2008]

My GRE score by no means indicates that I am unable to handle graduate work. That is a very poor line of reasoning. Indeed, the fact that I have two masters degrees shows that I am more than capable of handling graduate work. I could in fact complete a PhD in Australia which would show that even more, and they would still place far more importance on the GRE scores.</p>

<p>To be fair, the analytical writing section tests critical thinking, something that should have far more emphasis placed on it then simply regurgitating a vocabulary list, which tests memory more than anything else.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>All Ph.D’s are competitive; highly so, at least from what I’ve seen, in computer science. The GRE, although it’s a pain in the butt, is simply one of the hoops you have to jump through.</p>

<p>To give you a bit of perspective, here’s the stats from University of Minnesota (I think US News put it at 61st in the country, and it also has the advantage of not being coastal, so less applicants) 2008-2009: [The</a> Graduate School : University of Minnesota : Program Reports](<a href=“http://www.grad.umn.edu/data/stats/ad/1019600.html]The”>http://www.grad.umn.edu/data/stats/ad/1019600.html)</p>

<p>Out of 359 applicants for Ph.D’s at that school, there were eleven students admitted with an analytical writing score of 5.5-6, thirty-two with a verbal between 400 and 500, and…zero with a quantitative score between 400 and 500. You may say that the GRE score may not reflect your ability to do graduate-level work (and, at least on the verbal, I’d say that’s pretty true), but the quantitative portion’s a whole different story, as it tests the basic concepts behind nearly all higher-level math. If a student can’t score well on that (given this is their only method of assessment), what proof do they have of capability in grad school?</p>

<p>We’re not trying to tear you down or make light of you, we’re just giving you a realistic assessment of what you’re currently offering to grad schools. Instead of channeling your energy into writing rebuttals, channel it towards working the system. I’m a HORRIBLE standardized test taker, but I got a 770Q score today after two weeks of studying (and PM me if you need help studying for it, I’d be more than happy to) and harboring a deep loathing of the SAT, GRE, and their ilk.</p>

<p>The GRE is not the sole thing they look at on your application, but it’s part of the package they consider: GPA, GRE, Letters of Reccomendation, Research, and Statement of Purpose. It’s too late to do much about the GPA and the research, but you do have power over the rest of it. Focus the anger on the GRE, and use that to do well; draft your SoP again and again until it shines; and try to get the best LoR’s you can get. I’m slowly learning grad school isn’t as numbers-based as undergrad, but the numbers are the minimum hurdles they expect you to clear.</p>

<p>(sorry for the ramble…late, and a bit sleepy)</p>

[Momwaitingfornew]

<p>JS has an excellent point about coursework. You need the correct educational background before you will be admitted. One or two deficiencies might be able to be made up during the first year (on top of other courses), but a program will not admit a student who needs several. Again, research is important. Look at the programs and compare their requirements to what you have to offer.</p>

<p>The following is taken from a non-top (but not bottom) website for computer science. Note that the program has combined both master’s and PhD into the minimums. PhD standards are much higher than master’s.</p>

<p>Minimum Requirements:</p>

<p>BS in CS or related field</p>

<p>Course Experience Needed:
Data Structures
Programming Languages
Computer Architecture or Org.
Discrete Structures
Operating Systems
2 semesters of Calculus </p>

<p>GPA
2.75/4.0 required
3.5/4.0 major GPA preferred</p>

<p>Minimum Test Requirements
GRE General Test
New Format-1200 combined Q&V, 3.5/6.0 AW</p>

<p>Edited to add: You should really be doing the research on your own to determine the qualifications needed for the programs you would like to attend.</p>

[StrangeLight]

<p>people are telling you to pick CS or ancient history and i do agree with you that it’s possible for someone to have two different interests they care about deeply.</p>

<p>that said, i will continue to echo the bad news others have given you.</p>

<p>is the GRE dumb? yes. yes, it is. does it really test a student’s ability to perform in grad school? no, it doesn’t. what it does test, however, is the lengths one is willing to go to get into grad school. you must study, and study rigorously, for the test. not because it’s a reflection on your ability, but rather it is a reflection on your willingness to work incredibly hard on something without any obvious benefit. this is what all of grad school is, basically, especially if you pursue ancient history. did every other person that took the GRE think it was a waste of time and shouldn’t be focused on? yeah, they did. but they studied for it and they got much better scores than you did, which tells admissions committees that those student are willing AND able to jump through hoops, which they’ll need to do in grad school.</p>

<p>the analytical writing section… 6.0 isn’t special. sorry. most programs, even history programs, don’t even look at the analytical writing score. 4.5/5.0 and up is okay, anything below that is a red flag. beyond that, it’s meaningless. why? because the people who grade the analytical sections are just masters students (or maybe PhD students) trying to get some extra cash. your writing isn’t graded by literary or logic professors. i’m sorry to be the one to tell you that the section you did the best on is easily the most meaningless, but it is.</p>

<p>for ancient history, your language preparation is really insufficient. you could try applying for a terminal masters program, but even then you’ll have a hard time getting in without any french or german and with only one semester of latin. if you decide history is the path you want to take and not CS, you’d do well to take a few undergrad classes at your nearest university in latin, greek, and either french or german. even after a year of this training, your language prep will only be enough to merit entrance into masters programs (1.5 years of latin, 1 year of greek, 1 year of french/german). PhDs will still be out for you.</p>

<p>i have a 4.0 undergrad history GPA, a 3.7 overall undergrad GPA, and 670 V (95%ile) on my GRE. i have research experience (somewhat uncommon for undergrads in history) and i worked as a professional journalist with some national and international-level credits to my name. i had three incredibly strong LoRs from professors i had worked closely with (one advised my undergrad thesis and taught me in all 4 years of my UG, one employed me as his research assistant for two years, and the other would lie on a bomb for me). and with that profile, i only got into 3 of the 9 schools i applied to last year. i’d say that 3 of the 6 who rejected me did so because of “fit” (i.e. no one in their department felt they could adequately advise my dissertation topic) and the other 3 undoubtedly did so because of my language preparation. i had 3 years of spanish and struggled in my second year of the language (rebounded in the third) and was just starting my first year of university-level french when i had applied (although i had studied 9 years of french as a child, i didn’t remember most of it).</p>

<p>so… i can tell you, every single thing about your application is insufficient.</p>

<p>yes, there are many schools in the NYC area. you won’t get into columbia and you won’t get into NYU. not even for masters degrees, and not even after you get a masters degree somewhere else in the states. unless you retake your GREs and score above 700 on the verbal and manage to get 3 years of latin and 2 years of greek while completing a masters with a 3.7 or higher GPA, you can pretty much discount both schools at the PhD level too. some students have made it into both programs with poor profiles before, but they’ve usually published some of their work in respected academic journals. your time globe-trotting, while an important character-builder and i’d argue an invaluable experience, won’t make the difference on any of your applications. in fact, you shouldn’t even mention your travels in your application unless they informed the specific research you want to do. and not “after i saw the ruins i knew i wanted to study ancient greece,” either. that’s a statement of purpose no-no.</p>

<p>other schools in the NYC area are fordham, rutgers, CUNY, and SUNY. i can’t speak for all of these schools, but i know that rutgers and CUNY (and SUNY stonybrook) are all pretty competitive, and you will have almost as much difficulty getting into one of these schools as you will getting into columbia or NYU. you may be able to get into a masters program at one of these schools, but again, it will be difficult unless you take 1 year (2-3 semesters) to brush up on your languages.</p>

<p>yes, your GRE is too low. whether or not the test is a poor measure of an applicant, you do not meet the threshold. many schools will agree with you and say the GRE is somewhat meaningless, but they still have a basic cut-off, and you don’t meet it. unless you have documented learning disabilities that can explain your poor performance, this will tell most programs that you lack both the dedication and the ability to make it through US grad programs. that’s why they have the cut-off. also, even if you retake the GRE, all your scores are sent to the schools you apply to, so they’d see your improved results as well as your two poor tests.</p>

<p>after that, your GPA is too low, including your masters GPAs. like another mentioned before, grad school GPAs tend to be inflated. so yes, you’re getting As now, but so is everyone else in your program unless they’re really struggling. you’ve proven that you can complete a grad program in australia, but that’s not the same thing as a grad program in the US.</p>

<p>after that, your course preparation isn’t there for either CS or ancient history. you’ll need to take some undergrad classes on your own to even begin to be competitive for masters programs in either field. PhD programs will likely have to wait until you’ve improved your profile with a US masters degree.</p>

<p>and finally, your LoRs are not good enough. out of 3 letters, a minimum of one (and probably at least two) of your recommendations need to come from academics. if you’ve been away from school for a long time (and you haven’t, since you’re currently in a masters program) then work-related LoRs are more acceptable. you should only get recommendations from people who can attest to your ability as a researcher. if you don’t have that, then you don’t have anyone to write LoRs for you. start forging those relationships now. your profs may not know you, but you’ll have to make them know you if you want a PhD in the states. visit them in their office hours.</p>

<p>the ivy leagues are probably out for you. even in instances where the ivies aren’t the best schools for a given degree (and that happens a lot), in general the ivy league schools are still most likely out of reach for you. just because princeton is lower down in CS doesn’t mean they’re not still hard to get into. entry straight into a PhD program will also be out for you. if i were you, i’d save my money on applications to PhD programs and just apply for masters degrees.</p>

<p>i think a lot of people have had a somewhat adverse reaction to your posts because you sound like you’re owed the opportunity to go to grad school and yet every part of your profile is subpar. go to any 4-year university and throw a rock and you’ll hit someone with a higher GPA.</p>

[josh2008]

<p>Thanks everyone for your replies.</p>

<p>Sorry for the delay in replying, I was busy with work stuff. I apologise if I am rubbing people the wrong way. I’m not trying to be needlessly argumentative, nor do I feel that I deserve to study. I am simply expressing my frustration that a GRE score can be a deciding factor in a graduate application. I think it is a major flaw in the system, and an indication that money and reputation is worth far, far more to these schools.</p>

<p>For what its worth, I have lived in the US for a few years, and have applied to schools before. I also have studied several degrees in Australia. My views are not out of ignorance or inexperience.</p>

<p>Also, due to the fact that I travel and live abroad, and have a career, I will probably never be able to get recommendations for faculty staff. Only from people working in
the industry.</p>

<p>kigali,</p>

<p>I don’t think I am misinterpreting what people are saying about the GRE scores at all. If I had stellar recommendations from academic staff, original amazing research with an amazing research background and the highest GPA’s I can have…with my current GRE scores I still would not get in. Which I just think is a bit sore. However, the way StrangeLight explains it makes sense to me.</p>

<p>I’m also aware of just how serious a commitment studying a PhD is. The fact that I have two areas of interest is irrelevant. I eventually want to have two PhD’s, so it really does not matter which one I focus on now. I am ready and wanting to commit 4-5 years of my life to get my doctorate and produce original research.</p>

<p>I get that there are many different grading scales, and they need a way to assess an application rather independently, but I just don’t see the GRE as the way to do this. It’s something you can do well at simply by memorising…and the part that does test criticial thinking and original thought is for the most part irrelevant. I would hope that an interview would be worth more weight than any GRE score…but it is not even an option
for most of the time. Then again, as StrangeLight points out, it makes sense to test dedication…</p>

<p>I’m encouraged that you think I have a shot at a masters program. As for wanting a third one…thats easy. Most applications have stated that I would need to do a second
masters regardless to progress to a PhD, due to differences in teaching. So that’s fine. What do you feel I could do to improve my chances at getting admitted to a masters program, regardless of GRE scores? i.e., even if I redo the GRE, what else can I do to improve?</p>

<p>Letters from faculty are just not an option at the moment. I’ve finished my degrees, and just don’t have any relationships out of my previous studies due to travelling and being abroad, and my career. I happy to develop those relationships if I get admitted to a masters degree, but they dont exist to help me get admitted to a masters degree.</p>

<p>sarbruis,</p>

<p>My GPA’s are very good. I more than likely just converted them incorrectly. My GPA for my bachelors is horrible. My GPA for my two masters puts me on the deans list.</p>

<p>I also think it’s a bit harsh to say my GRE score shows a lack of effort. I studied for about 2 months, and just didn’t have high school maths knowledge…which you take for granted to back me up. I underestimated how long I needed to study for…probably 4 months would have been better…but this was not a lack of effort on my part.</p>

<p>As it is, my GRE score is not an indicator of my grad school potential, at all. I know this, because I have two masters degrees with very high GPA’s, and one research thesis
that was new and innovative.</p>

<p>In Australia, CS classes are often called IT degrees. I have matched my classes to cs degrees in the states, and at the very least, 85% of the subject content is the same. I have indeed taken courses on algorithms, data structures and math.</p>

<p>Your advice to get into a lesser uni and do incredibly well on a Masters…is that possibly not an option at the moment, without redoing the GRE?</p>

<p>js911,</p>

<p>As above, while my courses were called IT, they were very CS based in nature. Likewise, I have seen a group of 8 university (the Australian equivalent to the ivy league) rename an IT course to be computer science, just to get numbers.</p>

<p>What I don’t get is despite my quantitative score, my extremely high score on the computer science subject test should make up for that. If nothing else, it shows I have an excellent knowledge and understanding on algorithms and data structures, discrete math, and related subjects.</p>

<p>Serric,</p>

<p>That’s what it comes down to, I suppose. How competitive it is. I know my field, at least CS, perfectly. This is exemplified with my high CS subject test score. I know AH…quite well, but not as well as I know CS.</p>

<p>I would hope my proof of capability in grad school would be that I have completed grad school twice with very high GPA’s, and that my subject test was also exemplary.</p>

<p>I get that people are only trying to help, and I hope it doesnt look like I am only trying to argue…I am just seeking further clarification and expressing my disapproval of the system. I am by no means ignoring peoples advice…but at the same time, I would like to know just why it is so impossible, if the rest of my application was impressive.</p>

<p>I really don’t think my GPA was that bad, and my research was certainly detailed, original and impressive. I would think it is too late for me to get any letters of recommendation at this stage…I’m not going to do another masters in Australia, and if I can’t get into one in the US, I may as well just do my PhD in Australia. Where so much importance is not placed on the GRE.</p>

<p>Having said that, I do appreciate your advice, and will probably end up taking the GRE again as one final shot. LoR’s except from people actually working in the industry are definitely out. </p>

<p>I may well take you up on your offer to PM you about GRE help </p>

<p>:)</p>

<p>Momwaitingfornew,</p>

<p>I certainly have all of that course experience, except perhaps the calculus. My GPA also falls within range. My research these was actually about operating system internals, and making a rather drastic modification, which I did quite well on.</p>

<p>My post was never about the requirements, it was about getting around the requirement for the high GRE score, to see if things like a very high computer science subject test score could overcome it, or if there were any other creative ways to make my ability and experience stand out.</p>

<p>Strangelight,</p>

<p>I’m all for picking either CS or AH, but I want my decision to be based on what I have the most chances for being admitted to. At the moment, that would appear to be CS, as I only need a higher GRE score and possibly 2 semesters of calculus to make myself stand out. I simply don’t have the language experience for AH.</p>

<p>Your reply makes the most sense to me, that universities are taking it as a test of the lengths people are willing to go.</p>

<p>Having said that, I can say my score of 6. certainly is special. It is in no way relevant to most admissions courses…, but it is certainly special. When I look at the averages of scores released over…6.0 is somewhat rare. I understand it’s not relevant, and I thin that that is a shame, as it is the only part of the test that really tests critical thinking and original ideas, how a student communicates etc. It’s the only part of the test where memorising a textbook won’t help you out.</p>

<p>As it stands, based on what your saying for AH…, I would need a few more years languages. That is just not going to happen at this stage…, I don’t want to study languages for the next 2 or 3 years…I want to study AH. Especially ig after 2-3 years of studying languages I would only get into a masters program.</p>

<p>Your story of applying is certainly interesting. Certainly for AH I have no chances at a PhD…but I would have hoped before this thread I had at least a chance at a masters. I have the research experience and professional credits, incredibly strong LoR from people in the industry etc…but all this can only help me to study CS…not AH.</p>

<p>If I retake the GRE’s and get 700 on verbal with a year of latin and already having masters with, lets say a higher than 3.7 GPA, will that be enough to get into a masters program? Getting into a masters at one of the other schools sounds promising…but even then, I don’t know about learning french or german. I will have an excellent grasp of latin, done a research project in latin, and be starting greek. All this while I have also been learning Chinese…which is not relevant to studying AH, but should show I am proficient at languages.</p>

<p>Will a low GRE score work against me if I take it again, or will the schools seeing the improvement work in my favour?</p>

<p>I’m not sure that my GPA is too low, I think I just converted it quite badly. My Bachelors GPA is horrible, but both my masters GPA’s are very impressive and strong.</p>

<p>I’m not sure why you say my course preparation is not there for CS…, my course preparation is definitely there for cs, and I have 1.5 years of course prep for AH…, definitely not equivalent of a bachelors in AH…but not insignificant…</p>

<p>It certainly seems a masters degree in the US is the way to go and what to apply for. Are these spots just as competitive as PhD programs…or slightly more relaxed?</p>

<p>Despite being in school, I simply don’t have anyone I can ask in academia to write me LoR. I have asked my research supervisor, and we have somewhat limited contact, and they have not actually me me(I live abroad), so they just don’t know what they could say. I have however led research teams for many prominent companies, so I would hope this would be a valid substitute.</p>

<p>As I said above, I don’t mean to sound like I’m owed the oppurtunity, I just want the ability to study as I know I am capable, and every bit of my profile aside from the GRE scores show this. MY Masters GPA’s are very high…</p>

<p>Anyway, many thanks for your post.</p>

<p>Many thanks for everyone’s posts. Many things to consider.</p>

[sarbruis]

<p>
[QUOTE=josh2008]

I studied for about 2 months, and just didn’t have high school maths knowledge…which you take for granted to back me up.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What do you mean by “which you take for granted to back me up”? </p>

<p>If you don’t have high school maths knowledge, then you really, really, really need to work on that. And if you don’t have two semester of calculus, you’re going to have trouble getting into any program worth going to. A Computer Science degree here in the States usually means taking integral, differential, and multivariable/vector calculus, along with linear algebra, probability and statistics, and discrete math.</p>

<p>If you studied for two months and still got a score in the lower quartile of the quantitative GRE section, I’m sorry, but that is an indicator of your graduate school potential in CS, anyway), and not a good one.</p>

[josh2008]

<p>sarbruis,</p>

<p>What in the world are you talking about?</p>

<p>I’ve done my research in comparing the degrees I have to courses offered in the states, and calculus is nowhere near as certain as you indicate. I agree, I need to work on basic maths knowledge, but it’s very, very, wrong to say that getting a low GRE score is an indication of my grad school potential in CS. That’s just insane.</p>

<p>There are many reasons not to admit me, and many reasons I need a better GRE score, but to base my grad school potential on my GRE score, especially while ignoring my subject score is just stupid.</p>

[sarbruis]

<p>You don’t have a subject score, do you? Getting a good subject score may mitigate a poor general score, but you haven’t got one at the moment, so I’m not sure why you think you can use a hypothetically high score on a test you haven’t taken as evidence.</p>

<p>

calculus is nowhere near as certain as you indicate

</p>

<p>I think I know what you’re saying. Please give me examples of reputable universities in the US that don’t require at least two semesters of calculus for a BS in computer science. I go to a middle-of-the-road state school, and our CS degree requires what I listed. I also looked at UC Berkeley and Louisiana State to make sure I wasn’t making this up. I wasn’t.</p>

<p>I’m not basing your grad school potential solely on the GRE; I’m saying it’s an indicator that does not happen to be in your favor. An inability to do high school-level mathematics, to me, shows a lack of preparedness. Perhaps other opinions differ. Why don’t you email the NYU grad admissions department and ask them what they think of someone applying to a highly quantitative field with an inability to do high school-level mathematics after studying for two months and completing a university degree?</p>

[js911]

<p>Here are my comments and recommendations for you if you’re serious about going into CS:</p>

<ol>
<li>Build up your math skills</li>
</ol>

<p>CS is often viewed as a sort of applied mathematics, so the math foundation is crucial for graduate programs. Certain branches won’t necessarily utilize the math required for admission - I can’t remember the last time I used calculus beyond basic derivatives and integrals - but it’s important to know what you may need when doing research. Other times, certain classes are so important you can’t proceed without them: computer graphics is hugely dependent upon linear algebra, and I can’t imagine anyone doing AI without using probability. It is science, after all, so having a large set of tools to work with is useful: you’ll find ways to apply seemingly irrelevant courses to what you’re researching.</p>

<p>Do you need to raise your GRE quantitative score? Honestly, I can’t tell you for sure because I’m not on an admissions committee (along with probably all the people who responded to you). I can only say I think it might really hurt your chances if you don’t have something between 650-800. The GRE is silly, I agree, but my personal opinion is that you need to master the basic math skills it tests. It’s only algebra, arithmetic, and some elementary geometry. If you feel this is too difficult, I can’t imagine how you would be able to give a solid analysis of an algorithm, for example. </p>

<ol>
<li>Write an impressive statement of purpose</li>
</ol>

<p>If you’re upset that your 6 on the GRE writing counts for nothing, you’ve forgotten that writing is an essential skill and can even help with your admissions. There are far too many people in STEM that cannot communicate. Nobody cares what you can do or know if you can’t transfer that knowledge. All you have to do is glance at some thesis papers’ titles and abstracts to discover a masturbatory exercise in obfuscation. I am considering titling a paper “Graphics that Work Good” as a joke. Seriously though, you can probably impress an admissions committee if you write a convincing SOP.</p>

<ol>
<li>Lower your expectations for program admissions</li>
</ol>

<p>There are brilliant students in a lot of programs, not just the ivy leagues. You’ll also find plenty of mediocre students at the top ranked schools as with any other university. Some people view education as something you receive; you go to a “better” school and you receive a “better” education. Those people can continue to believe that, but last time I checked universities don’t perform brain transplants. </p>

<p>I say each university should be viewed as a set of resources: you have to utilize what’s available to educate yourself, not the other way around. Fortunately, you don’t need a massive laboratory with expensive equipment to do research in CS - you just need a brain and some inspiration. Believe me when I say professors exist at schools outside the top ranked who are capable of providing the inspiration, direction, and knowledge you need.</p>

[Mr.Zoo]

<p>Josh—looks like you have **great **passion to do a PhD in Ivy school, which is similar to my situation when I applied last year, so let me give you some of my thoughts:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>as some posters pointed out, the admission office does not care about your personal goal and life experience, they only care if you can carry out good research work and publish some good papers (hence is why research experience and publication is a huge factor to PhD admission). This, of course, is with the exception if your dad is George Bush or Bill Gates or certain King of an African country etc… you get the drift. Given that you have traveled the world around, I’m sure you’ve seen enough of this. Don’t you sometime wonder how did George W. Bush get in Yale?</p></li>
<li><p>your numbers are very bad, forgive us for being so mean and straight, but this is the best way to tell you the truth. If you really want to do a PhD, apply in wide range of schools. Often times PhD is not about the brand name, you can have a crappy experience with a terrible advisor in a elite school and vice versa. You wont survive the first 2 rounds of “filtering” with your numbers (esp GPA). Think of this way—you work at the admission office of an elite Ivy school. This year you receive 2,000 applicants, and your job is to filter out 1800 applicants with not-outstanding academic standings, and give the rest to the admissions committee, and have them pick 50 out of the 200 to give admissions to. Would you keep one applicant with good life experience but bad numbers?</p></li>
<li><p>PhD is around 5 years, if you are right in the stage of starting you own company, are you sure you want to go back to school and live with 25k/yr stipend for 5 years?</p></li>
</ol>

[Momwaitingfornew]

<p>Josh, I spoke to my husband who is the chair of a CS department about what you need to do to get into a PhD program in computer science. Because you do not have the qualifications to get into a PhD program, this is what he suggested if you want to pursue the idea:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Apply to a US masters program in computer science. Don’t worry about the ranking – you won’t be able to get into a top one - but about getting close to a 4.0 wherever you go. You will most likely have to pay for this yourself. </p></li>
<li><p>Prior to applying to masters programs, study for the GRE and get a much higher Q score. This is essential. While some masters programs may not require calculus and higher level math, they will need to know that you can solve basic algebra and geometry problems – exactly what the GRE measures. Remember that how you do on the first ten problems will determine your eventual score.</p></li>
<li><p>Either before or during the masters study, take calculus and higher level math. Even ignoring the Q GRE score, you do not have the necessary mathematical background for a CS Phd. Masters programs tend not to be as demanding here, so you might be able to get in one with these deficiencies. Again, you probably can’t get into a top program without a stronger mathematical background, but for now, your goal should be to simply get into computer science itself.</p></li>
<li><p>When you apply to masters programs, you are going to have to contact your former professors for LORs. You absolutely cannot do without this step, even if the LOR reads, “Josh took my class in 2005, and got a B+, roughly the middle of the class.” Tepid LORs work for the less selective masters programs but never for PhD programs of any rank.</p></li>
<li><p>You must be aware of certain realities: IT is not looked upon very highly by CS, so this is not going to be a plus when applying to programs. CS is much more theoretical, with a heavy emphasis on math, algorithms, and novel solutions on the machine level. Also, your two fields – ancient history and information technology – will be red flags to any PhD program because they want to fund only those students who are likely to stay in the field. Even once you complete a masters in CS, you may have to explain this and your dedication to your new field.</p></li>
<li><p>When you attend a masters program, you absolutely must get to know all your professors to cultivate those future LORs. Go above and beyond the coursework. Show initiative and curiosity. You must be a standout in a CS masters program not only grade-wise but also in the eyes of CS professors before you can expect to be a competitive applicant to a PhD program. Top grades are often taken for granted, but earning the respect of your professors shows that you have the stuff to excel at the next level. This is the best way to overcome your past.</p></li>
<li><p>If you manage to get into a CS masters program with anything less than a 700 Q score, you should take the GREs yet again before applying to a PhD program. They will not accept students who don’t have the mathematical precision to solve high school math without a calculator. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>I hope this helps.</p>

[WilliamC]

<p>Josh asks:</p>

<p>If I retake the GRE’s and get 700 on verbal with a year of latin and already having masters with, lets say a higher than 3.7 GPA, will that be enough to get into a masters program? </p>

<p>No. You will need at a minimum 2 years of both Latin and Greek to have a shot at any ancient history masters program. Be aware that While your other masters degrees are important to you, they are irrelevant to Ancient History. As far as the academic world is concerned, you have no qualifications for Ancient History. None. At. All. You have a minimum of four years of part-time (2 courses a semester) study. In addition to the languages, you MUST take 2 or 3 upper level (3rd or 4th year) courses with large writing components. This will give you a writing sample, real research experience (demonstrating a mastery of the languages), and the relationships with professors you’ll need for your LORs. There is simply no way around it.</p>

<p>I’ll repeat: I managed to get a BA in Classics over the course of 5 years while working full time as a senior software engineer. That is exactly what you’ll have to do to even begin to have a chance at graduate school.</p>

<p>Now for CS - Ah… I see Momwaitingfornew has replied with everything I was going to say.</p>

<p>If you’re in the US now, your best bet is to gather up your transcripts and and make an appointment at whatever university is convenient and get some serious admission counseling. </p>

<p>Good luck and stick with it - it’s going to take way longer and cost WAY more than you think… but it’s worth it.</p>

[aigiqinf]

<p>I have no experience with this whatsoever. The only thing that I would add is to check your GPA conversion and ask a school or two if they do GPA by direct conversion. By my math your undergrad GPA is 1.69 which is too low to graduate with any degree in the US and a 2.96 is a seemingly impossible to get on the 7 point grade and pass most of your subjects.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t take any steps until confirming that.</p>

[josh2008]

<p>sarbruis,</p>

<p>I’ve taken practice tests for the subject test, and do almost perfectly. As I said, I know my stuff. I’m not trying to use a hypothetical score as evidence, so don’t put words into my mouth. I was only asking if it could mitigate a low quantitative score.</p>

<p>AGain, you jump to conclusions far to quickly. A lack of high school mathematics shows a lack of high school education…thats pretty much it. I’ve gotten by just fine studying and doing research in computer science thus far. I have to ask, what is your actual knowledge of CS?</p>

<p>Now, as for calulus…, the NYU course: <a href=“http://cs.nyu.edu/web/Academic/Graduate/Admissions/admission.html[/url]”>http://cs.nyu.edu/web/Academic/Graduate/Admissions/admission.html&lt;/a&gt; Does not mention calculus anywhere that I can find.</p>

<p>Indeed…I would seem to have an OK shot going by that page. It states typical acceptable scores, OR an analytical writing score, which indicates a high analytical score may be worth something. I certainly meet or exceed most of the requirements on that page. I may well not be able to compete with other applicants due to my GRE score…, but lacking calculus hardly seems to be the issue you make it out to be.</p>

<p>js911,</p>

<p>Thanks again for your comments.</p>

<p>I get that maths is necessary, and understand how important a GRE score may be. If nothing else, it can only help my chances if I have a better score. My SOP is quite strong, I feel, as my grasp of English is excellent, as is my ability to communicate. I do feel I’ve expressed my desire, passion and ability as much as I can without mentioning irrelevant things like my travels.</p>

<p>Part of why I wanted to go to a top university was…well for many reasons. To do research with leaders in the field, the experience, the recognition provided at being able to get into such a top school etc…</p>

<p>Thanks again for your kind thoughts and advice :)</p>

<p>Mr.Zoo,</p>

<p>Many thanks for your reply.</p>

<p>I know well enough not to include and anecdotal or biographical in my SOP or application…as much as I wish that certain things could be considered.</p>

<p>I don’t think anyone has been mean, at the most, just calling it like they see it. I’m not trying to come accross as defensive or hurt…, I’m just calling it like I see it just as much.</p>

<p>To be honest, I still don’t get why people think my GPA’s are terrible. My bacheloris is yes, but not my two masters degrees. I really think I screwed up converting to a US GPA for everyone to think they are so terrible.</p>

<p>Honestly, if it was up to me to pick applicants, I would probably try and interview them, and try to get a better idea of how capable they are and what they would contribute. I would try very hard not to admit people only* because they had high scores. And I’m well aware of the work load of operating a company and doing graduate work. The company can easily be managed by someone else with me being a silent partner after I set it up. Bring it on. </p>

<p>Thanks very much for your reply :)</p>

<p>Momwaitingfornew,</p>

<p>Many thanks for asking your husband, it is much appreciated. :)</p>

<p>It is encouraging that I may be able to get into a masters program, just as others have said. Getting admission into a PhD course is by no means impossible, which is the most important thing.</p>

<p>I was not aware the first 10 questions determined my eventual score…how does this work? If I get the first 1 questions all correct, and the remaining half right, this is a different score as if I had got the first 10 wrong, and the remaining still half right? That seems arbitrary…</p>

<p>Indeed, I think calculus is something to worry about when I can actually apply for a PhD…for a masters it certainly does not seem necessary.</p>

<p>For your 4th point…are you saying a LOR from a professor who never got to really know me…just saying I did quite well, or even very well on a course but is not actually a recommendation…and may be a paragraph at most, is worth more weight than an incredibly strong letter of recommendation from say, a CEO?</p>

<p>As I replied earlier, I do have a background in CS, despite my courses being called IT. The name is somewhat meaningless, and any admissions officer who reviews my courses will see I have studied CS courses. The prerequisite knowledge on the NYU page I linked to above is satisfied in spades.</p>

<p>Many thanks for your other points. If I do get into a Masters program in the US, I will definitely take advantage of the situation, and retake the GRE to get at least 750 on either test.</p>

<p>:)</p>

<p>WilliamC,</p>

<p>Hmmm. Why does my MA in AH count for nothing? It was 3 semesters of 4 courses each, with a fairly heavy research component.</p>

<p>The NYU course here: [ANEES</a> graduate program](<a href=“http://www.nyu.edu/fas/program/anees/graduate.html]ANEES”>http://www.nyu.edu/fas/program/anees/graduate.html) indicates admission may be possible, indeed they have an MA designed for people with a bachelors in the field. Likewise, I received email advice from admissions officers at Cornell that a bachelors was not necessary.
There certainly seem to be many MA courses in top schools that don’t require a BA…would it not be possible to jump to a PhD course after completing one of these MA programs?</p>

<p>aigiqinf,</p>

<p>My bachelors GPA does not reflect my performance accurately. For example, if I do no assessment or withdraw from a subject, I get a grade of 1. I have quite a few grads of 1 despite not being assessed at all, and a few grades of 2 because I was unable to attend some final exams. Hopefully my grades for the other courses would be noticed…</p>

[cosmicfish]

<p>A few notes, ignoring specific qualifications for CS and AH:</p>

<p>GRE</p>

<p>The quantitative section measures many things, including your understanding of basic algebra and geometry but also showing your diligence and attention to detail. This is why colleges still look at the GRE even though it tests a level of math below what so many programs require.</p>

<p>Both the verbal and quantitative sections use adaptive scoring when you take the computer-based test. This means that the computer selects each subsequent question based on your performance up to that point. If you bomb the first ten questions, it only gives you basic basic basic questions which will not be enough to lift you out of the cellar. To put it another way, your first ten questions determine your “century” (400’s, 600’s,…) while the later questions determine your decade (430, 470, …).</p>

<p>Analytical writing is largely ignored because the college board puts little effort into grading it. The readers have on average less than 2 minutes to assign a grade, and often do so more by eliminating obvious errors rather than evaluating literary merit. One statistician showed a strong correlation between the essay length and the score, regardless of other merit. By the way, I’m not hating on you here - I got a 6 as well, and still consider it largely worthless.</p>

<p>GPA</p>

<p>According to Texas Southern University, a 2.92/7.00 converts to a 1.67/4.00. I realize that this is slightly lower than your ugpa, but it is still well below the 3.50/7.00 you would need just to graduate from a US university - a 2.00 is almost always required. Plus, grad candidates generally come from the upper echelon, hence the 3.0/4.0 minimum at most schools, and the expectation of 3.5+/4.0 for top schools. So when people call your ugpa “awful” (or whatever it was) … it really is. </p>

<p>Your grad gpa is much better, and many schools will overlook your undergrad performance when you have a grad degree already. Your gpa’s there are still not great - they expect better performance during your masters (since there are no “general education” credits pulling you down). In general, grad schools want to see a 3.5 when the masters school is comparable in prestige to the doctoral school. Penn State CS, for example, would perhaps want a 3.5 from Ohio State, a 3.0 from MIT, or a 4.0 from Villanova. So your grad degrees will help you getting into lower tiered schools, but not into top-tier.</p>

<p>Also note that different schools handle ugpa and ggpa differently - Ivy League in particular pays attention to “general scholarship” issues like ugpa.</p>

<p>SOP</p>

<p>Don’t critique your own writing. Find someone who at the very least got a PhD in a similar field, better yet a professor in that field. Ask them to review it before you declare it “quite strong” - remember that this is not an absolute, but a competition, and the strength of the SOP matters only in comparison to your competitors.</p>

<p>Two PhD’s</p>

<p>This is a real issue - you sound like a degree-collector. I cannot imagine a field of work or study requiring or even assisted by PhD’s in CS and Art History, and you have not offered one. Why do you want these degrees?</p>

<p>A grad student represents a cost to the advisors and department in time, money, and opportunity. They want someone who is going into that field to stay, not someone who is going to bail for another field as soon as the ink on the diploma dries.</p>

<p>Many schools will not allow a second PhD, and of those that do I have yet to see one that does not expect a solid reason for the change of focus. Usually they expect years of work and research in the original field, and will carefully scrutinize your reasons for jumping into a new field. They will not let you do a second (or first!) PhD just because you want one. They would rather use that slot on someone who will make a difference in the field. Professional degrees are the exception to this - you can always try to go to law school or med school.</p>

<p>Remember also that a humanities PhD typically takes 6-8 years of full-time study assuming you have “average” preparation, a sciences PhD 5-6 years. That is a lot of time.</p>

<p>Suggestions</p>

<p>(1) Pick a field relevent to your intended future pursuits. If you want to be an Art Historian or Curator, do that. If you want to be an innovator in CS, do that. If you can think of a job that combines the two, you should be able to create a single doctorate that will adequately prepare you. Do NOT do a PhD if you are not committed wholeheartedly to that field.</p>

<p>(2) Do another masters, research-based and at the best university you can get into, in the field picked in part 1 above. Bust it and get the 4.00. Then apply for the PhD. Make sure you cultivate LOR’s.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

[sarbruis]

<p>
[QUOTE=josh2008]

to base my grad school potential on my GRE score, especially while ignoring my subject score is just stupid.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I consider this to be using a hypothetical score as evidence.</p>

<p>Perhaps MS degrees are lax with regard to mathematics requirements, but do realize that there are plenty of people who have taken the full calculus sequence as well as linear algebra and prob/stats and so on who apply to MS programs (as virtually all CS BS degrees require such classes here)–and certainly PhD programs. What programs put on their websites and what people actually apply with can differ quite a bit. They may say “3.0 GPA required” or something like that, but the mean GPA of applicants is more like 3.8. I’m not saying that’s the case with NYU, but it’s a popular school, and they probably get applications from people who have a stronger mathematical background, along with much high general GRE scores.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=josh2008]

A lack of high school mathematics shows a lack of high school education…thats pretty much it. I’ve gotten by just fine studying and doing research in computer science thus far. I have to ask, what is your actual knowledge of CS?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A lack of high school mathematics after graduating with a degree from university shows much more than a lack of high school education.</p>

<p>My knowledge of CS: At my school, I’ve taken Programming I/II, Digital Logic Design, and Discrete Math ([course</a> descriptions](<a href=“http://www.eecs.ku.edu/courses/numerically/1xx]course”>www.eecs.ku.edu/courses/numerically/1xx))–along with Calculus I, Honors Calculus II, Honors Linear Algebra, Honors Differential Equations, Honors Vector Calculus (all with A’s except one B). I’m taking an upper-division Data Structures class this fall, along with doing some computational biology research.</p>

<p>I don’t mean to imply that you can’t do any useful CS research without calculus. You can probably get by without it somehow. But everyone in CS takes calculus here, and I just find it difficult to believe that that won’t be held against you. And calculus will most definitely limit your potential eventually, especially in a PhD program. I imagine some of the classes you’ll need to take will have two semesters of calculus or calculus-based prob/stats as a prerequisite.</p>

[sarbruis]

<p>If the following is indicative of your grading system (I found this on wikipedia, so I don’t know), then you’re going to need something like a 5.0+ to get into most programs.</p>

<p>High Distinction - 7
Distinction - 6
Credit - 5
Pass - 4
Fail level 1 - 1
Fail level 2 - 0</p>

[Mr.Zoo]

<p>I understand why you want to interview the applicants… but it’s simply unrealistic (they wont afford to fly the applicants from all over the world to interview them), for most PhD (and almost all master) they give offers without interviewing the students. For certain extremely competitive fields such as medicine they interview people in order to get the truly best fit students.</p>

<p>I agree if they interview all the applicants they can find some talented individuals with fairly low academic standards… but sadly that’s just not the situation</p>

[josh2008]

<p>cosmicfish,</p>

<p>Many thanks for the pointers.</p>

<p>Out of curiosity, why do you consider a 6 worthless? I understand it may be as far as applying, but surely you don’t feel it is for what it represents?</p>

<p>Based on my scores, is it possible I was in the 500th “century” but didnt did poorly so ended up in the later decades of the previous century?</p>

<p>It’s good to know my ugpa can be overlooked.</p>

<p>The reason I want a PhD is to do original groundbreaking research and establish myself in that way…I already have a good career, but doing research, aside from the chance to do it, would allow me to pursue options not open to me otherwise, such as teaching positions.</p>

<p>I have been thinking of combining my fields, as there is plenty of area to do, the question is finding the balnce, and being able to incorporate a decent amount of AH into a CS doctorate, or vice versa.</p>

<p>Thanks again for your replies</p>

<p>sarbruis,</p>

<p>I was never using a hypothetical score as evidence. AT all. Ever. Perhaps as hypothetical evidence, if you want to play that semantics game…</p>

<p>I could not find calculus as a requirement for any CS schools in the NY area, for either an MS or a PhD. If it is required, I can see it it being more along the lines of assumed knowledge rather than required coursework. If it is required course work and I pursue a second masters in CS, then it will be covered. I think in any event, my best chances are to apply to another masters program, and get that 4.0 and strong LOR’s.</p>

<p>A lack of high school mathematics after graduating with a degree from university only shows a lack of high school education. If it was not necessary to know the maths taught in high school, then no harm is done. You’ve covered the basics of what I’ve studied in CS, with the exception of calculus stuff. To be fair, the page you linked me to, the 100 series courses seem to be much more IT than CS.</p>

<p>You seem to ignore the fact that I have already studied CS, and done research in CS successfully. You seem to want to dismiss this, because you find it hard to believe I could not have possibly done so without high school mathematics. I don’t know what to say to that, except perhaps it is worth reassessing your preconceptions.</p>

<p>That grading system is almost accurate.</p>

<p>after pass, we have a low pass which is a 3, a fail which is a 2, and a low fail which is a 1, with a 0 being for no work submitted at all, which is quite impossible to get except with 0 attendance and submission. My two masters courses grades are all 6’s and 7’s, except for one subject in either course.</p>

<p>Mr.Zoo,</p>

<p>In this day and age, a physical presence should not be necessary. My point is that there are other ways to more completely assess applicants, as many other world renowned universities around the world manage to do. Indeed, if Medicine can do it, I don’t see why other fields can’t, short of laziness.</p>

[sarbruis]

<p>I’m not quite sure why you think you aren’t using a hypothetical score as evidence. You wrote “while ignoring my subject score”. You haven’t taken the subject test; so any score you’re referring to is a hypothetical one. And you’re obviously using it as evidence. But I’ll leave that alone.</p>

<p>Yeah, the 100 level classes aren’t very CS; they’re usually first semester classes.</p>

<p>I’m getting rather weary of this; so I’m just going to say this: you’re not going to get very far without the ability to do high school mathematics (and proving this on the GRE), and I personally doubt you’ll get very far without a good firm foundation in university-level mathematics. (By “get very far” I’m referring primarily to admissions.) Perhaps you’ve found a niche where this isn’t true. That’s fine. PM me when you get into the Columbia PhD program and I’ll send you a video of me eating a hat.</p>