Low GRE scores and GPA...the path to ivy league?

Graduate School
1

<p>Well, I took my GRE test recently and received my results. I have to say...damn. I did not do as well as I had thought, which is annoying. Now, it is worth noting, I have missed almost all of high school, and a lot of primary school, so missed out on a lot of foundational knowledge, which I feel affected my score.</p>

<p>The first time I took the test, I received 380 for Quantitative, 510 for verbal, and 4.5 for analytical. This time I received 480 for quantitative, 490 for verbal(worse..somehow), and 6 for analytical.</p>

<p>Now, I have a Bachelors in IT, which I did dreadful on. I have a 2.96 GPA on a scale of 7.</p>

<p>Using a conversion calculator to a US GPA, It seems my US GPA would be 2.50 or slightly less. Which is not so good....</p>

<p>In addition to this I have a Masters in IT which I did much better on, and half of it was research for a minor thesis, which I also did quite well on. I would think my US GPA for my masters would be 3.50 or close to. I am currently studying a masters in ancient history, with one semester left to go. My current GPA would be around 3.00, however I will do a small research project for my final semester, and expect this to be around 3.50</p>

<p>I have substantial work experience, and have travelled the world by myself, working and learning. I have been to over 30 countries being self sufficient, and have seen much of what the world has to offer. I am in the process of gathering investors to incorporate my business in the US, which is based on idea from the research in my masters thesis.</p>

<p>The reason I raise these last two points, is because I would to know if they can affect my chances at all. I think they are positive points, which may add more weight to my application in light of my poor GRE scores.</p>

<p>Ideally, my goal is to study at a university in NY, either NYU or Columbia.</p>

<p>I would like to do a PhD, but would happily do a masters again to be able to progress to the PhD program. The areas I would like to continue in are computer science or ancient history. I would be happy to do either, and my application would depend on what I had the best chances for.</p>

<p>Given my poor GRE scores, but the fact that I have substantial world and business experience, a fantastic analytical writing score, glowing letters of recommendation from my employers(not a single academic reference...a lot of my lecturers have never even met me physically) and have a decent GPA in two masters degrees..and a rather poor GPA in my bachelors...how are my chances?</p>

<p>What could I do to flesh out my application and make myself stand out as capable despite the shortcomings of my situation?</p>

2

<p>How should I rephrase my question to get the input from people here? What is wrong with it? I thought it was a valid question…</p>

3

<p>Perhaps people do not wish to be the bearers of bad news. Those scores will indeed keep you out of almost all doctoral programs, and top programs are currently out of the question for you.</p>

<p>Take a prep class (or at least study on your own) for the GRE. You will need a substantially higher Quant score (close to 800) to be considered a viable applicant in CS, and a substantially higher Verbal score (above 700 would be ideal, but above 600 would suffice for some programs) to be considered a viable applicant in History.</p>

<p>Your two choices are also very far apart. Typical successful graduate school applicants are passionate about and focused upon one thing.</p>

<p>Finally, your choice of doctoral programs by location rather than faculty is very much out of the norm. Graduate admissions proceeds primarily by “fit” with faculty. You must choose the schools to which you apply by identifying faculty whose scholarship is in line with your own, both in terms of methodology and specific area of focus, not by the location of the university.</p>

4

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>Thanks for the reply. I just think it’s rubbish that so much emphasis is placed on the GRE.</p>

<p>If I received a very high score with the GRE Computer Science Subject Test, would that not help? Does my score of 6 for analytical mean nothing? My shining work experience and references? To focus on my GRE score is to unfairly reduce my accomplishments and ability, and I would hope schools would be willing to consider more than just a number.</p>

<p>I understand my choice in programs is very far apart, but this is due to life circumstances, and having an equal interest in both. I have an equal passion for both, as well as research areas decided upon, and would honestly be happy to study either, opposed to not studying anything.</p>

<p>I get that it is odd to filter by location, but honestly NY has everything I need that matches my academic wants, so it seems like a good deal. Are there perhaps chances of being accepted by NYU, more so than Columbia? What about CCNY?</p>

5

<p>Why was this moved? The question is about ADMISSIONS.</p>

6

<p>The question is about graduate school admissions – the college admissions forum is for undergraduate college admissions topics only. In addition, the posters here in the graduate school admissions forum are much more knowledgeable about graduate admissions than the posters in the college admissions forum.</p>

7

<p>There’s always a chance, but your GRE’s very low. You have to realize that NYU and Columbia see plenty of fantastic applications and your GRE’s will be a red flag. I was denied by a department with a professor that really wanted me…the professor told me that he fought and fought, but in the end I lost out to another student who had higher GREs and was told to improve my scores and reapply if I was set on that department. That was with a 600V 730Q and 5.5</p>

<p>Luckily not every department is as numbers based and I got plenty of other good offers, but higher is always better!</p>

8

<p>Josh, </p>

<p>Getting a PhD in either computer science or ancient history? I don’t think you could have chosen two more disparate possibilities. </p>

<p>Some truths you need to know about PhD admissions, whether at the top or in the middle:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>“Ivy League” no longer means “the best.” The most prestigious programs in any given field may, or may not, be located at an Ivy League school. Research your field.</p></li>
<li><p>While GRE scores don’t get a student admitted, they can keep a student out. Many top programs have an unofficial cut-off score, below which you won’t get your application read. The most competitive programs have the luxury of accepting only those students over, say, 1300 on the GREs. Some programs list average scores; if your scores are considerably lower, then you may be out of luck. </p></li>
<li><p>Once you pass the GRE hurdle, then GPA comes into play. Most, if not all, PhD programs require a minimum GPA of 3.0, but top programs often narrow their pools to those who have a 3.5 or higher. I think that since you have two master’s degrees, your undergraduate GPA won’t be a factor. </p></li>
<li><p>PhD programs value research and publications. If your GREs are at the low end of their allowable scores, then original work in your field can overcome them. </p></li>
<li><p>Outstanding letters of recommendation from faculty members can also overcome one weaker area of your application.</p></li>
<li><p>Extracurriculars that don’t directly apply to the field don’t matter in graduate school. For instance, your traveling won’t be relevant to your application unless it was specifically to research, say, religious art for your master’s thesis.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Unfortunately for you, your GRE scores are below average for PhD programs. If you apply to top programs in history, your verbal score should be at least in the 600s. If you apply to top programs in computer science, your quantitative score should be in the high 700s. For less competitive programs, it’s possible that scores over 500 will get you past the first hurdle, but I don’t know this.</p>

<p>Your OP makes it sound as though you want a doctorate only for the degree itself, not because you want to become an expert in your field. When writing your statement(s) of purpose, make sure you don’t give this impression. Because faculty members support their students, they accept only those they believe will make a difference in the field.</p>

9

<p>Do you have a mentor, or a particular professor who really believes you need to keep going with your education? A lot of times that is the best person to talk to. I know, for me, it was really a professor who became interested in my work and thought I needed to pursue graduate school who assisted me in figuring out the best school, which happened to be a school she had a good relationship with. It won’t garauntee anything, but given your scores and past performance, a professor who believes in you might be what you really need right now, more than anything else.</p>

10

<p>And not to “pile on” but for Ancient History you’ll also need the appropriate ancient language(s) at a fairly high level as well as a strong background in the field (the equivalent of an undergraduate major). </p>

<p>If it’s Ancient Europe you’re looking at that means both Greek and Latin. Most programs will tell you the minimums are 3 years of one and 2 of the other. In actual fact you’ll be competing against people with the equivalent of 5 or 6 years (that is, they come in with that language already at upper level undergraduate) of their stronger language and 3 or 4 of their weaker. Given your travel, I’ll assume that you’re reasonably fluent in one or more modern “research languages” (e.g. French or German) - knowledge of at least one is a de-facto requirement these days.</p>

<p>To have any chance at Ancient History you’ll need to go back to school for the undergrad material and languages. Now, this is where I get to plug Penn’s [College</a> of Liberal and Professional Studies](<a href=“http://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps/]College”>http://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps/). It’s how I got my BA in Classics while working full time as a software engineer. It used to be called CGS so if you’re interested you’ll get more hits here using that as a search term. Even with a good background, be aware that competition for spots in humanities programs is even stiffer than the sciences and engineering - even though they say the GPA mimimum is 3.0 I suspect that the practical mimimum is more like 3.7+. </p>

<p>Finally, know that the job market for PhDs in the humanities is abysmal. Browse some of Professor X’s posts for the horrible truth.</p>

11

<p>Hi all, thanks for your replies :)</p>

<p>VastlyOverrated,</p>

<p>Your story is…very discouraging, to say the least. I think it is very disheartening that such value is placed on a single score. I understand how many applications each university gets, however that means they should still take the time to review each one completely…in my opinion.</p>

<p>Do you think my score of 6 for analytical will/can balance out my score of 490 verbal?</p>

<p>Would a subject test, such as doing very veyr high in the computer science subject test, help me in applying to computer science? Surely it should show I am more than capable at studying computer science despite having a low quantitative score?</p>

<p>Momwaitingfornew,</p>

<p>I know the two disciplines are so very different, and yet, it is where my life and academic experience has led me to, with me being equally interested in, and capable of studying both.</p>

<p>Can you give an example of a program being better than a non ivy league school? The only examples I can think of this is MIT, and maybe stanford or berkely.</p>

<p>Just how bad are my scores? Does my score of 6 not mean anything? Is there anything I can do to really make myself stand out…something to make my GRE scores less relevant in the face of something amazing?</p>

<p>It is a relief that my masters degrees can compensate my poor bachelors. I had a lot of life stuff going on at that time, and the reason I have a low GPA is simply due to missing subjects, not exactly poor performance. The performance in my masters degrees is far above average.</p>

<p>I have certainly done original work in IT, in the area of security models. However this was more a comparison of existing solutions, and suggestions to overcome their problems. It was extensive, but I don’t know if it would save me. </p>

<p>I only have outstanding letters of recommendation from people in business, as I never got to know my university staff overly well.</p>

<p>My travelling was in part due to my interest in ancient history…although that was a rather small part. Is it then not worth mentioning.</p>

<p>I would hope, applying to a history section, my score of 6 for analytical, a writing sample, work experience and letters of recommendation would help in my application, and overcome my score of 490 for verbal.</p>

<p>I am definitely doing the doctorate for a personal goal and accomplishment kind of thing, but also to become a leader and respected in my chosen field.</p>

<p>poetgrl,</p>

<p>Unfortunately due to work and travel, I don’t have and close relationship with any signle faculty member. My work has to speak for itself for the most part.</p>

<p>WilliamC,</p>

<p>I am proficient in mandarin, which in which I am self taught, and have Taken courses in Latin in my Masters, which I scored above average in. However, I have a semesters experience at most…no where near years worth.</p>

<p>Is there any possibility of getting into a masters program with a masters in ancient history, without having to do the equivalent bachelors in ancient history?</p>

<p>Unfortunately, I’m not actually fluent in a modern research language, because I chose to learn Chinese Mandarin instead. I do understand the importance of this, with translations not always being available however…, even then, it is possible to do my research in an area where the majority of the work has translations available…</p>

<p>What are the chances of getting into a lesser college, like the city college of new york, and then transferring to NYU or similar?</p>

12

<p>

</p>

<p>“Better” depends on the department, not the overall reputation of the university. For example, in neuroscience, UCSF (San Francisco) has a better reputation than Princeton (which just started a program). For computer science, many students would love to be at Carnegie-Mellon or Georgia Tech over University of Pennsylvania. You’ll have to do the research to discover the top programs for the specific sub-areas that interest you.</p>

<p>Your writing score is obviously excellent, especially since it tests critical thinking skills, but the fact remains that your verbal is too low for ancient history and your quantitative too low for computer science. Combined, they are probably too low for any PhD program, let alone a top one. Top programs usually accept students with 1300s or above. Again, the GRE isn’t going to get you accepted. It just gets you past the first hurdle.</p>

<p>I suggest that you make studying for the GRE a part-time job. Get a Barrons or Princeton Review book. Take the PowerPrep tests multiple times. (You should have this software since you’ve already taken the GRE twice.) Do online tests. Look at the answers to see what you’ve done wrong so you don’t repeat your mistakes. These books are great at outlining test-taking strategies, so pay attention to their advice.</p>

<p>For the math: learn/review all the math in the books. If you’re like most people, calculators have slowed your multiplication skills, so work on quick recall. Memorize the pertinent formulas. The GRE tests only high school math, but it tests it without a calculator, so you can’t afford to take extra time recalling the basics. When you take the computer test, your score depends highly on how you do on the first 10-15 questions, so make sure you get them right. For computer science, you’re going to need a score in the 700s, preferably one close to 800. This is a heavily math-based field.</p>

<p>For the verbal: memorize those word groups. Flash cards work great for this. Those analogies are really tough if you don’t have the vocabulary to rule out some, make educated guesses on others. Take practice tests to figure out where you go wrong (over-thinking? too quick reading? weak vocabulary?) so you can learn to correct. My guess is that for top history programs, you’ll need at least a 620, preferably something closer to 700.</p>

<p>Although four weeks of study is generally sufficient, I suggest that you take eight weeks between now and the test. Study every day. If you want to attend a top PhD program, you’re going to have to make this a priority.</p>

13

<p>I appreciate your advice.</p>

<p>It’s just frustrating that they base everything on the single score. How backwards.</p>

<p>I’m just as ready and capable to study now, then if I spend another 8 weeks cramming for the GRE test and get ridiculously high scores. I’ll quite likely forget most of the vocab for verbal, and won’t have a need for a lot of the maths. Honestly, the critical thinking section should be worth a whole lot more.</p>

14

<p>They DON’T base everything on a single score. The GREs are just a qualifying point. Whether you get in or not (once you pass the GRE minimum) depends highly on your LORs, SoP, and your experience. Even if you scored double 800s on your GREs, it wouldn’t guarantee you a spot in a top program.</p>

15

<p>I don’t get it. How can you have such high expectations with such a (to be blunt) poor profile? Your undergrad gpa is very very bad and your GREs suggest you are unable to handle grad level work. A 6 in the writing portion is nice but it’s a subjective section that doesn’t mean too much. You seem to base everything on that one section. Your profile also details an ok Masters GPA. Most grad programs are grade positive and grade inflated, so they would ideally expect you to have close to a 4.0 in a Master’s program. Nothing in your profile will help you over the hump at this point. Maybe try to take some classes at your schools of interest to prove yourself.</p>

16

<p>Momwaitingfornew,</p>

<p>They place far, far too much importance on the GRE score overall.</p>

<p>Blah2009,</p>

<p>My GRE score by no means indicates that I am unable to handle graduate work. That is a very poor line of reasoning. Indeed, the fact that I have two masters degrees shows that I am more than capable of handling graduate work. I could in fact complete a PhD in Australia which would show that even more, and they would still place far more importance on the GRE scores.</p>

<p>To be fair, the analytical writing section tests critical thinking, something that should have far more emphasis placed on it then simply regurgitating a vocabulary list, which tests memory more than anything else.</p>

17

<p>Josh, you’ve been given some really great advice - I’d suggest taking it into consideration instead of berating those who gave it. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>You really have to figure out what you want to do a PhD in. I understand that people can have many passions, but a PhD is a very serious commitment - without a complete love for one topic and one topic only, you won’t be able to complete it.</p></li>
<li><p>There are other schools in NYC (like those in the CUNY system) that would let you take advantage of all NYC has to offer. I’m sorry to say this, but your scores and your GPAs will most probably keep you out of Columbia/NYU.</p></li>
<li><p>The GRE has been criticized a lot, but it’s a requirement for almost all graduate programs and you have to play by the system’s rules if you want to get a graduate degree. There’s no point in trying to prove it doesn’t indicate anything - you’ll still have to take it, so focus your energy on getting the best possible scores. It does test far more than just memory (logic and reasoning are two key components which come to mind), and while it’s not a perfect indicator of one’s suitability for graduate school, it’s still a fairly decent one that allows comparisons between candidates coming from vastly different schools and education systems. Sure, you got a 6.0 on the AW section and that’s great, but that won’t make up for a poor verbal score, and you’ll still need to break 700-ish on the quant for good programs, especially considering percentile rankings are much lower for the quant section than for the verbal one. </p></li>
<li><p>I’d imagine a PhD in ancient history is out of the question here, for all the reasons previously mentioned (language proficiency, oversaturation of the field, tons of candidates battling for very few spots even in mid-tier programs). </p></li>
<li><p>Graduate degrees vary greatly, and simply having two master’s degrees won’t necessarily prove anything to the schools you’re looking at without sufficient “objective” (I use the term loosely) criteria like GPAs and GRE scores to back up your accomplishments. At this point, it would be best to focus on what you CAN do - get stellar GRE scores, shining recs, a near-perfect SOP and adequately choose the right schools.</p></li>
</ol>

18

<p>kigali,</p>

<p>I’m certainly not trying to berate those who have given me advice, and for the most part I do appreciate it, and think I have shown that. I don’t think there is anything wrong in questioning that advice to seek clarification, or to express my disprovable of the current methods.</p>

<p>I also don’t know why you think it is not possible to do a PhD if I have more than one topic area/field chosen. I just so happen to have a very strong interest in two different fields, and this way can apply to the field which would give me the best chances of getting it. This does not mean I won’t come back later and complete a second PhD for the topics I have chosen and prepared for now.</p>

<p>I understand my scores will likely keep me out of Columbia/NYU. I just think it’s a shame that having a higher GRE would be the main factor to change this. There is a lot more to an application than a GRE score. I may consider applying for NYU, and making my application as competitive as possible, although I understand it is likely futile.</p>

<p>I do understand how necessary the GRE is, and was just expressing my discontent at the level of importance placed upon it. It tests memory far, far more than logic or reasoning, and it’s a shame. The part that does test critical thinking is generally disregarded. I guess I will just have to study for it harder and get above 700 for both, which I think is ridiculous. Admissions officers should be capable of inferring the ability of an applicant without having to use a GRE score as a quantifier.</p>

<p>If I’m out for a PhD program, is there any chance for admission to a masters, or are those chances equally bad?</p>

<p>As I have said, I guess I will have to go back and study for the GRE again…but even then, I’m never going to have stellar recommendations from faculty, only from emplyers. It’s just the way I study in Australia, and that can’t be changed.</p>

<p>I’m not trying to berate you if I come across that way, just a mixture of wanting clarification and expressing dissatisfaction at the system.</p>

19

<p>Josh, perhaps “berating” was the wrong term for me to use, but I hope I got my point across - take the excellent advice you’ve gotten and run with it. </p>

<p>I also think you’re misinterpreting what people are saying about the importance of GRE scores - it’s not just about the GRE and the GRE isn’t even a “main factor”. Your GPA is even more important, and perhaps even more important than that is your research background, your suitability for PhD-level coursework as assessed by recommenders from academia (sorry, but just employers probably won’t cut it), formulating a clear-cut research proposal, etc, etc. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>A PhD in the US is a very serious commitment. Once you get past the initial coursework credits, it’s all about the dedication you have to one particular (narrow) topic in one particular area of your chosen field. You will have to eat, sleep and breathe this topic to produce the kind of dissertation required, and even that may not be enough - a lot of people simply burn out because they may be perfectly suited for graduate school intellectually, but they didn’t realize what kind of commitment it entails from the getgo. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>In a perfect world, this would be possible. However, when you have two applicants, both from schools you know next to nothing about, applying with similar GPAs and shining recs, how do you distinguish between them? I’m simplifying the process here, but that’s what it generally comes down to. There are different schools out there, some of which have notoriously difficult grading scales, while others inflate grades. There are also schools which don’t believe in grades, period, and are P/F only - how do you assess the quality of the applicant then? I’m not saying it’s a perfect system, far from it, and it’s certainly not the only thing that goes into the decision, but it’s the one measure of an applicant that depends entirely on his/her preparation and nothing else. A SOP can be revised by a professor, a school may inflate grades, a talented student may shine in a pool of so-so students and earn stellar recs from professors eager to send their students on to top schools, but there’s nothing anybody but the applicant can do about the GRE. It’s not entirely objective, but it’s impossible to be perfectly objective in the admissions process. </p>

<p>I think you have a decent shot at a master’s program, but you have to understand that adcoms will wonder why you want a third one - what some view as having “wide horizons” and “varied interests” is what others may view as “floating”, lacking focus, being unable to commit or wanting to get a degree simply for the sake of getting a degree, kind of like what happens to talented students intending to pursue four majors simultaneously. </p>

<p>And yes, for PhD programs, you’ll have to develop close relationships with your academic mentors, because those recommendations will ultimately matter more.</p>

20

<p>
[QUOTE=josh2008]

I just think it’s a shame that having a higher GRE would be the main factor to change this.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, it wouldn’t be the main factor. Your GPAs aren’t very good. A 3.0 won’t get you very far. A 3.0 with a quantitative GRE score in the lower quartile will get you into very few places.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE=josh2008]

There is a lot more to an application than a GRE score.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is correct. If your application were otherwise outstanding–which it isn’t by any standard–you’d have a better chance. However, you’ve got to play the game, which means doing really well on the GRE. Your scores show a lack of effort at best. It’s not that hard to score well. And as you’ve stated interest in Computer Science programs, you should be able to score a 750+ on the Q section without any problems at all. It’s befuddling, frankly, that you managed to score in the lower DECILE of the Q section on your first attempt and you think it’s not any kind of indicator of your graduate school potential.</p>

<p>Also, referencing your OP, traveling around the world and being self-sufficient will have no effect on your admissions. It’s irrelevant.</p>

<p>My advice: spend a lot of time studying for the GRE, until you’re certain you can score 700+ on the Q (your verbal is probably okay). Then do a master’s in whatever at a place like Fordham or Hofstra. Do incredibly well, then apply to PhD programs at your schools of choice.</p>

<p>Also, when you say IT, what does that mean, exactly? I’m pretty sure Computer Science and IT have very little to do with each other. Have you taken classes on algorithms and data structures, discrete math, and multivariable calculus?</p>