Low GRE scores and GPA...the path to ivy league?

<p>

</p>

<p>William will probably provide a much better explanation than I can, but, since this question may get buried in all the rest, I thought I’d give it a stab:</p>

<p>Archaeology is a sub-field of anthropology. Both study human (and non-human primate) cultures, usually through fieldwork. Archaeology focuses on the artifacts left behind by a culture to piece together a better understanding of it, while anthropology generally focuses on behavioral aspects of cultures through observation. </p>

<p>An ancient history scholar will focus instead on written documentation to piece together a better understanding of what happened at a particular time and place, and why. Although knowledge of the culture is necessary to better understand the events, it is not the focus. </p>

<p>To oversimplify: history is about events, and anthropology is about culture. Archaeology is anthropological study of artifacts.</p>

<p>Yes, the knowledge overlaps, but the focus is entirely different.</p>

<p>Blah2009,</p>

<p>First of all, IT is not an acronym for “internet technology”. This lack of comprehension over something so basic as an indication of your lack of such basic skills, further evidenced by your inability to comprehend my posts.</p>

<p>miamioh,</p>

<p>Many thanks, I certainly will. I’ll grab a cheap prep book, and make sure I ace the powerprep tests. :)</p>

<p>Momwaitingfornew,</p>

<p>I get that, but had not thought the fields were totally different. As you say, I thought it was just a shift in focus, with a lot of the same foundation knowledge being required.</p>

<p>The research methods and knowledge sets in each are completely different. My guess is that you would need fieldwork experience to get into anthropology/archaeology.</p>

<p>Momwaitingfornew,</p>

<p>Yes, I certainly do need fieldwork experience. Something I desperately tried to get during my AH MA but was unable to. If I decide to pursue AH, I will have to go and attend some digs as a volunteer or something.</p>

<p>Six pages and counting. I love that he’s switched tracks, and has now counteracted with the “poor comprehension skills” argument that was accurately levied against him previously. It’s still mind-boggling as to why this person thinks they are deserving of an acceptance to a PhD program.</p>

<p>This is fun. Keep it up.</p>

<p>even an unranked school wouldn’t accept someone without calc 1, 2, 3, and diff eq.</p>

<p>and i don’t understand how your IT degree could be remotely close to a CS degree if it didn’t require those courses.</p>

<p>Momwaitingfornew has pretty much nailed it - as she indicates, the confusion and overlap comes in where both disciplines study historical cultures with more or less extensive written records. Since your interest is in historical peoples you can forget about my “completely different” comment. You get the best of both worlds - heavy language requirements PLUS finance, civil engineering, analytic chemistry, statistics, mapping… </p>

<p>It’s becoming increasingly common for modern archaeology programs (though usually still based in anthropology departments) to spin off their “historical” period tracks (Greek, Roman, Egyptian, etc.) into ad-hoc academic groups that include professors from Classics, Ancient History, and so forth. There’s simply too much important work being done in all those fields to allow administrative structures to interfere. </p>

<p>Here at Penn for example Art History, Archaeology, Ancient History, and several other departments are rolled into a group called “Art and Archaeology of the Mediterranean World”: [AAMW</a> - Art and Archaeology at Penn](<a href=“http://www.arthistory.upenn.edu/aamw/index.html]AAMW”>University of Pennsylvania) As you can see from the website, the requirements are pretty serious. I can also tell you that for the Fall 2008 academic year, the program received about 90 applications and admitted 2 new students. </p>

<p>Since your MA obviously didn’t have a strong language component any hopes for admission to a US PhD program will depend on making up that deficiency. As you can see from the Penn website above, for Egyptian you’d need at least the German and French. If your interest extends into the Ptolemaic period, Greek will be necessary up front as well. If you can provide a link to the AH program you completed, we can probably give you a better feel for what else may be required to bring it up to US standards.</p>

<p>One last comment for this morning - field work - make sure the project offers academic credit. There are a lot of volunteer opportunities that are of little or no value for someone planning graduate work in the field.</p>

<p>The student profiles also give a great example of the kinds of people the program admits. Not that I expected otherwise, but . . . wow.</p>

<p>Here’s an engineer, with a masters degree in Information Science. Note the post-bac certificate in classics from UNC and the “years” of fieldwork in Turkey.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>decidedfactor,</p>

<p>Gah! Enough with the arrogant posts, I get tired of defending myself. I have not switched tracks at all. Nothing I am saying now contradicts a thing I was saying earlier. As it is, as much as I appreciate people replying to me, I am not going to take the words of people on a forum as Gospel. I will question things, and get different opinions and advice from many people to aid in my decisions. I really don’t know why you think or got the impression I am deserving of acceptance into a PhD program.</p>

<p>You have to understand, while I may express my opinions that the GRE test and reliance upon it is inadequate and wrong, this is not the same as me saying I should be able be admitted into a PhD program. I can see, maybe, how it may seem like that at a first impression, but my subsequent posts clarified that.</p>

<p>tx2000,</p>

<p>I can find CS degrees in the US that don’t require those courses if you really need evidence…, Sorry, I’m just not buying that calculus is as required as you say it is. The fact is, it varies, at least for masters programs. Based on the requirements of pages I have checked.</p>

<p>WilliamC,</p>

<p>Thanks again for your comments. I have a more specific interest in religion and ‘way of life’ if that helps. It really is disconcerting to see the requirements. Is it fair to say that my MA in AH is quite worthless? Would anything be gained from doing a terminal MA in the states? There is definitely no way I could be admitted to a non terminal MA…so…</p>

<p>My MA program covered 2 semesters of Latin, and I am considering doing 1 semester of Greek, but I understand that is still not sufficient. I also have no modern research languages, unless I can get mandarin to count for something.</p>

<p>Here is a link to the program I completed, although I have the option of doing an additional semester at the moment.</p>

<p>[Master</a> of Arts in Ancient History - Macquarie International - Macquarie University](<a href=“http://www.international.mq.edu.au/study/areas_coursedetails.aspx?cse=61&CourseLevelID=2&StudyOptionID=1&Location=AllLocations]Master”>http://www.international.mq.edu.au/study/areas_coursedetails.aspx?cse=61&CourseLevelID=2&StudyOptionID=1&Location=AllLocations)</p>

<p>Momwaitingfornew,</p>

<p>Thanks for that. We don’t have Post-Baccalaureate Certificates in Australia from what I understand. Would a terminal MA serve a similar purpose at all? Perhaps if I get a few years field experience and get research languages down to a decent level I would have a chance(instead of doing the equivalent coursework of a bachelors), going by the example profile you posted?</p>

<p>Josh, despite all the negatives everyone throwing at you, you are still very energetic about your goal and driving, t-up for that and I admire your permanence. </p>

<p>Good luck to all your future endeavors.</p>

<p>Many thanks Mr.Zoo.</p>

<p>I hate that I have come off as arrogant and deserving of special treatment, as nothing could be further from the truth. What I do have is ambition and persistence in spades, which as long as I don’t focus on a lost cause(which I don’t believe I am), then it is a great asset.</p>

<p>Words of encouragement are always appreciated :)</p>

<p>mom’s clarification of the difference between anthropology and history is generally a good one, although many (many) historians are now working on cultural history, so the lines are blurred somewhat. perhaps past vs present in terms of cultural study would be a stronger way to separate history and anthropology respectively. there is a distinct difference not so much in what you study but how you study it.</p>

<p>archeology requires some very specific tools and skill sets. you do field work. it can be a rather technical field, and if you’re looking to incorporate technology into your study of ancient egypt or the mediterranean, then this approach would be more common than going into history or cultural anthropology and using computer science.</p>

<p>you mentioned that you have course preparation for ancient history. i, and many others, have told you that you do not have enough of it. 1.5 years of history courses and half a year of latin are not enough. they’re not nothing, but they’re not enough even for entry into a masters history program that will lead to a PhD.</p>

<p>the NYU and cornell programs you constantly mention are not quite entrances into PhD programs either. they are terminal and will in all likelihood still not give you enough background for a PhD in history. history programs have some very specific requirements, and those requirements are language proficiencies. in all honesty, you would be better served to take 2 years to learn languages and then apply for combined MA/PhD programs than to enter a terminal “world history” degree. you will have difficulty juggling the courseload of a history masters on top of the language classes you’ll need, and just getting the masters without adding to the languages will mean that you won’t get into any PhD program. really and truly, if you want to get into a history program, learn latin, greek, and french or german. you will never get a PhD in ancient history without being able to read and translate three of these languages. not a single school will give you the degree. they most likely won’t even let you write your dissertation if you can’t pass their language translation exams.</p>

<p>this is something i cannot stress enough. for ANY PhD program, you need to pass two (or more) language translation exams. all the history courses and terminal masters degrees in the world will not change whether or not you can translate one page of latin or one page of academic-language french (using a dictionary) in 2 hours maximum. this is a requirement to get your masters in the first place, and then you have to pass a second translation exam to move to the qualifying exam for the PhD. if you pass that (where you must read, memorize, and analyze the arguments of 150 academic books relevant to your field and pass written and oral exams on them), then you get to write the dissertation, and then you get to orally defend it after 3-5 years of working on it.</p>

<p>anthropology requires knowledge of french or german, if not both. archeology as a subschool will still require this proficiency because much of the secondary literature you’ll need to read will be written in either language. the languages for humanities/social sciences degrees are not arbitrary. you will need to translate material yourself on a regular basis and may occasionally find yourself presenting conference papers in another language.</p>

<p>so yes, you have some history courses and a history masters already. and with improved GREs and proper LORs, you could scrape your way into a low-to-mid tier masters program (terminal). but without the languages, a 4.0 and a perfect GRE score won’t get you a PhD.</p>

<p>with your profile as it is, right now, you can’t get into any masters program in history or anthropology. not even your NYU or cornell ones. you are not competitive enough. meeting their minimum requirements listed is what you have to do to simply get them to read your application. they will not accept students that only meet the minimum. and as it stands, you don’t meet the minimum, which means your application gets put in the circular file. with new GRE scores and real LORs (from professors, this is an absolute must, i’m sorry), you might get into a terminal program, but you won’t get into NYU’s or cornell’s. they’re both still too competitive for you. meaning that your profile is not good enough. and again, you won’t get into any PhD program, even if you get 7 different masters degrees, without the languages.</p>

<p>if i were in your position, here is what i would honestly do:</p>

<p>1) study like mad for the GRE. get 600V or higher (for history/anthro/archeology) or 700Q or higher for CS. if, on the third time around, you can’t break either of those scores, then decide to do something else with your life. find a new way to make that move to new york.</p>

<p>2) contact your masters’ advisors. make yourself known to them, through email, on a personal basis. tell them about your grad school hopes and tell them your profile. let them give you an honest opinion on whether or not you’ve got a shot. also use this as an opportunity to make an intellectual connection with them. you NEED one LOR from a professor that advised your masters project. if you can’t get that, then again i would recommend letting the grad school thing go and moving onto something else.</p>

<p>3) while getting the GREs and the LORs, then take one year of languages (for history) and do not apply to any grad school, even a masters program, this fall. you won’t be able to do a masters and get 2-3 languages at the same time, and without the languages, you can’t get into any PhD program. apply in the fall of 2010, and during that year, take a second year of languages. for CS, i’d recommend what others have suggested: look at your target schools, look at their undergrad programs for CS, and look at the courses required to get a major in CS. if any of those courses are not on your transcript, take those this fall and, in the fall of 2009, apply ONLY to low-tier or mid-tier masters programs. no PhD programs, no ivy leagues, no top 20 CS programs. the rest of your profile is too shaky for those. if you get 700+Q, schools will still get your previous GRE test scores and they’ll see the one good score as more of a fluke than the two bad ones. your lack of research experience in CS will keep you out of PhD programs and top CS masters programs. if you want to get in somewhere, significantly lower your sights. after you get the CS masters, then try for a PhD program in mid-to-upper tier depending upon your performance in the masters degree.</p>

<p>or don’t take any of my advice. don’t take the languages, don’t take the math courses, and maybe retake the GRE but don’t do anything differently this time around. don’t get in contact with old professors either. apply to the top programs and ivy league schools for masters AND PhD degrees with letters only coming from industry and not academia. and then wait for the small paper envelopes to come rolling in.</p>

<p>I challenge you to find an accredited CS degree that doesn’t require calculus.</p>

<p>Josh - oddly enough, I chanced upon that very program while I was researching my earlier reply. The answer is - that would be a very good program, but only if you went with the language based electives and followed up with more advanced study.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t say your degree has no value - I assume you enjoyed the experience and learned quite a bit. BUT - (as you know well by now) without the languages you’re screwed as far as a US program is concerned. If you really want to go on to advanced study in the US you’ve got three steps:</p>

<p>1) Nail the Ancient language(s) - since you’re interested in Egypt, that’s Greek and one of the Egyptian dialects. Latin will help and you’ll have to master it eventually but I’d put Greek higher on the list right now. The fact that you have access to instruction in Egyptian languages is a huge advantage - use it.</p>

<p>2) Nail a modern research language - German, no question. In the US many universities have courses like “German for Graduate Reading Knowledge” that will cram everything you need to know into one semester. Try to find something like that.</p>

<p>3) Research - I see from the link below that Macquarie has papyrology courses. I would be willing to wager the museum has a big cabinet (or possibly dusty cardboard box) full of unexamined, untranslated papyri (most likely in Greek or Coptic). Be ready to aggressively participate in one or more of their programs, get to know the instructors and museum personnel well, and then don’t stop asking until they give you some material to work on independently (that is, just you and a professor). Papyrological journals are made up largely of relatively small articles that describe in detail a particular chunk of papyrus, an ostracon or two, or something else with ancient writing on it. Your goal is to get something liike that accepted by one of the journals. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.anchist.mq.edu.au/doccentre/MALS%20Winter%20School%20brochure%20final_1.pdf[/url]”>http://www.anchist.mq.edu.au/doccentre/MALS%20Winter%20School%20brochure%20final_1.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>All that is probably 3 years of part-time study. You can do it in 2 years or a little less if you can find a way to do one of the many “sumer intensive language” programs - the one here at Penn will give you two full years of Greek or Latin in one brain melting summer. Follow the summer with 2 years of upper level Greek, German for reading, (note what StrangeLight says about language skill levels) and those Egyptian classes along with publishable research, crush the GRE, and you’ll have a solid shot at a US program.</p>

<p>I went through and read every post. I see a great passion in you josh, but I also see someone unwilling to accept this simple fact: passion isn’t enough, you need the numbers to back you up as a quality student. </p>

<p>Let me just make some points:</p>

<p>1) I can’t remember where it was said but someone converted your undergraduate GPA to a 1.67. Not only is this not enough to put you among the highly successful students you will be competing against, it in many cases isn’t even enough to let you apply.</p>

<p>2) You are picking out parts of this Australia to US conversion that will help you and throwing out the others. You bash some people for saying that your degree “IT” degree translates to a CS degree. And then when some people explain to you that your converted Grad school gpas aren’t special you tell them the conversion is wrong.</p>

<p>If IT translates to information technology, many people in OUR country break into this field after a TWO year degree, called an associates. </p>

<p>3) This non-sense about you not needing Calculus for CS here in the states is probably you’re most flawed argument. Please stop going on the internet and looking at “minimum requirements”, these mean nothing. Why on earth would the top schools what students that only meet their minimum requirement? </p>

<p>Not only will you need Calculus to show your quantitive skills, but you will need it to understand much of the coursework you will face.</p>

<p>4) How many people who LIVE IN THE US have told you that your critical GRE scores won’t set you apart? Please, just stop asking people if they think it is special when someone new comes along…it isn’t.</p>

<p>5) I am not trying to be negative, but your low scores on the GRE with “2 months of studying” show me that unless you devote yourself fully to preparing yourself for A LONG time for your GRE you will not improve them enough to compete. Sorry.</p>

<p>I’m guessing that you don’t have the time since you are discussing all this groundbreaking work you are doing that are getting you your “who-cares” LORs.</p>

<p>I took the GRE when I was a Freshman (1st year) for a joke/practice and scored higher than you in all subjects. </p>

<p>6) Finally, your main problem seems to be your desire to come to the states. You say you grad school gpa is special in Aus, yet we are telling you it’s nothing here. If your grades are so special there and your two WILDLY different degrees are so impressive their, why don’t you just start your career? Supposedly you have great credentials as an IT student so you should be able to do just fine in your country. Your problem? Australia’s Upper Level education isn’t reputable, the US “Ivies” and Top 20 are world renowned institutions of higher learning.</p>

<p>Your different Masters degrees not only aren’t special in terms of grade they also show you are very unsettled in your life and have no idea what you want to do. And as someone who has a parent working in academia, who once worked on an adcomm for a reputable PhD program, that is a red flag. PhD require students to be very passionate about a broad subject with a passion to delve into a narrow field in that subject. </p>

<p>Move on and start working. The people who have been helping you out are just being nice. They keep telling you what you need to do, and it is all incredibly hard work. You see that it would be hard and you say “I just don’t think I need calculus” or “I don’t want to study languages.” You just kind of come across as another one of those thousands of students who have said “a PhD would be awesome! I can be a professor and get summers off!” When in reality it is incredibly challenging. Getting in is the first part. I believe I once read that 50% of PhD students do not finish their dissertation. So not only do you not have a chance of getting in, you really don’t seem like the type who would work hard enough to finish.</p>

<p>

If any prospective graduate students are reading this thread, DO NOT take the official test that early.</p>

<p>When sending GRE scores, all scores from the last 5 years are sent and are reviewed by admissions committees. By all means, take practice tests in books or online – but save the real thing for later.</p>

<p>Wow, I worded that terribly. Sorry for the misunderstanding. The GRE I took was offered by a couple of Graduate Students at my University as a practice test. They had practice tests that came after a two day prep course. I was just trying to say that before my Undergrad course work that is supposed to further your standardized-test taking skills really began I was able to score higher.</p>

<p>actually, it might be in your best interest to have taken it earlier. if you did well on the SATs, the GRE would be a joke for you as a high school senior.</p>

<p>

I haven’t read all of this long thread, and it’s possible that someone has pointed this out to you, but I have to say that the above quote makes it pretty clear that you don’t really want to study ancient history. A desire to read about AH in English translation and/or listen to learned professors lecture about AH in English makes you an enthusiast – not a scholar. I don’t think you quite understand what a PhD in AH is.</p>

<p>Likewise with your dismissive criticism of the GRE’s vocab test. Unless you have an uncommonly bad memory, if you had really studied in any of the humanities or social sciences, you wouldn’t need to be building such elaborate memory palaces of new words for the test, because many of them would already be in your vocabulary. Similarly, if you planned to really study these subjects in the future, that vocabulary would absolutely not be subsequently useless and forgotten. </p>

<p>Not trying to be negative, enthusiasm about AH is great to see. I think you’d be wise to reflect on the natures of both your passions and of higher academia, and adjust your ambitions accordingly.</p>