<p>You must also remember being caught in your lie does not end at the admissions process. Depending on the severity of the lie, you can be kicked out of school or even have your degree rescinded anfter graduation.</p>
<p>" our guess is that all the colleges were informed of his misdemeanor."</p>
<p>The h.s. GC also may have informed them. On virtually all college applications that I have seen, the GC has to report whether the student has had a suspension or other type of disciplinary violation. Certainly the student's submitting a forged recommendation would result in disciplinary action by the student's school, and that action would need to be reported.</p>
<p>I think that such info also is requested when the GCs have to submit the student's final transcripts after students have been admitted.</p>
<p>My guidance counselors did some pretty shady things when I was applying, actually. I wonder if it hurt me any. I mean, they weren't major things, but from what I remember, they could have been considered as treading on the waters of unorthodoxy, compared to what it seems like some of the normal practices are when it comes to getting recs and that sort of thing. I mean, they didn't blatantly lie and like write my English teacher's recommendation for her or something, but, you know.</p>
<p>your guidance counselors? they lied on your application?</p>
<p>all she asked was "is it bad to lie?"....pretty much it's a yes or no question, and you guys respond with full intense paragraphs....have these college essays gone to your heads?</p>
<p>hahaaa i know it wasnt like i was planning on lying! lol i was just wondering if people actually do that</p>
<p>High school is a game-a game that colleges created. Kids at my high school do their extra curriculars just to write down a sentence in their resumes for the admission counselors to see. It is ridiculous. </p>
<p>The number #1 undergraduate business school in the world is Upenn (Wharton). It is by far the best, and #2 is extremely far behind. The difference between getting into the next best college could easily mean tens of thousands of dollars a year (no joke). Now is this fair? No, but thats life, and if you really want to be in business and want to better your chances of acceptance, the only option is to cheat.</p>
<p>You may still say this is wrong. True, but let me give you an extreme example. Suppose I have no job, no money, and no food. Should I steal to feed myself? Even though it is "wrong", I believe most of you will answer that with a yes. Its survival of the fittest, and whatever you must do to get ahead, you should do it.</p>
<p>Now you may be saying, what about those kids who did not cheat and do not get accepted? Once again, life is not fair. Take my situation. I get accepted to my $40,000 backup school and receive a scholarship for $10,000. Another student gets accepted as a extreme reach with an EFC of 0. He gets maybe 35k and 5k in loans and I am stuck with 25K to pay off because of my high EFC of 25K. Not only can my parents not afford that, but even if they could they probably would not. So I end up with 5 times the debt than a kid with much less stats than me. I cannot pay to go to the school, and so I lose my spot to a less qualified student.</p>
<p>Moreover, check this out: <a href="http://www.usstudentathletes.com/articles/football_SAT.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.usstudentathletes.com/articles/football_SAT.html</a>
While the student that cheats to get into the college may take another students spot, so does an athlete. Not only do most of them get a full scholarship, but many will flunk, have GPAs around 2, and most do not deserve to attend a great school. </p>
<p>I did not cheat on my applications, but the way admissions are determined upsets me. Students who deserve to go do not, and those that don't do attend. So if you really must, what is wrong with giving yourself the best opportunity to make your dreams come true?</p>
<p>i agree with above poster until you get to the point where you ask yourself, what is everyone took up my moral code and cheated, thus I would be screwed and the entire world would be corrupt.</p>
<p>Your kind of thinking only works in a society where the majority of people DO NOT cheat or lie or think the way you do. Thus there is a flaw in your argument I hope you will reconsider.</p>
<p>i just want to point out that my school has 5 debate captains</p>
<p>" So if you really must, what is wrong with giving yourself the best opportunity to make your dreams come true?"</p>
<p>So, why not take your argument to its logical conclusion. Want a Lexus, a million bucks, a huge estate? Why not murder and steal to get those things? After all, some people will do anything to get what they want. Why don't you? Life is just a game, anyway. Right?</p>
<p>yeah Northstarmom life is a game life is a learning game. People aspire to go as far in the game as possible and accomplish everything they could possibly dream of and meet everyone and be the best they can be. They aspire to have others join them in this journey and some people do stop at nothing to get what they want. They always will and just because some college says you can get kicked out IF you get caught is not good enough reason for people to quit doing whatever they possibly can to get ahead in the game. It never will stop because it is human nature to not stop in this game and be the best at everything. If it means cheating then some people will resort to that.</p>
<p>Cheat your heart out then. It probably won't even help you that much. It seems to me that people forget a little thing called personal initiative. Where one goes to college does not matter as much as many people think. Either you have the drive and the intelligence to succeed for yourself, or you don't. Harvard won't change that.</p>
<p>" It never will stop because it is human nature to not stop in this game and be the best at everything. If it means cheating then some people will resort to that."</p>
<p>It's human nature for people who have not yet become fully human. What you think is normal is not.</p>
<p>esrajay, you have made the logical case in favor of cheating (even tho you yourself don't cheat). Let me try to make the logical case against cheating - specifically lying on an application. First of all, I doubt the relatively small lies will significantly help your chances of admisision. And even if it did, the alternatives you face are not between Wharton (=high income + success) and destitution requiring murder and theft to survive. If you falsely claim to be a team captain or a club president, or a 4 year participant instead of a 2 year participant, I don't see that as making the difference. On the other hand, why would anyone want to create what is basically a time bomb in their record? Even if the lie is not detected during the admissions process it will stay there and you risk discovery not only during your college career but beyond. Twenty years after graduation if you are nominated to the supreme court, or a cabinet level position or go to work for an agency that requires a security clearance, your little former lie could turn up and disqualify you. I know it is hard for kids to think about these things now, but a lie in your application now will stay with you for the rest of your life. </p>
<p>And if you really believe that lying and cheating are the way to succeed in business, I know people who are in jail today because they lied. (And I'm not just talking about Martha Stewart)</p>
<p>Northstarmom I guarantee you that if you are still an interviewer for college that you will find occasional people who lie on their application until the day you hang up your shoes. I will not lie because I have personal satisfaction in what I've done and know that I don't need to lie to become successful. My post was regarding the cheating sense in a broader way that people will always have the desire to cheat or find a short cut to things such as college admissions.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>cheating is morally flawed. It is an exploit of the system which if everyone did it, would leave society at a subhuman level.</p></li>
<li><p>cheating does allow for short term benefits but almost always result in long term shortcomings. nothing beats the experience of studying or working hard for your goals other than continually looking for shortcuts.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Those are 2 laws i've found very true. However, I too am not perfect. I might too be persuaded to cheat on a SUPER IMPORTANT final to get into law school or something but I would accept that as my moral flaw instead of trying to argue and support my immoral actions.</p>
<p>One of the coaches at a school to which my daughter applied called to inquire whether my daughter wanted to change sports. My daughter cleared up THAT question almost immediately, but she and the coach spent significant time talking about skills and training regimens in my daughter's sport. After reading this thread, I wonder whether the coach was trying to determine whether my daughter was honest on her application about time/awards in this EC.</p>
<p>i think we're getting philosophical here...</p>
<p>"It's human nature for people who have not yet become fully human. What you think is normal is not."</p>
<p>duke3d4 summed it up perfectly.</p>
<p>I was all set to disagree with this sentence </p>
<p>"Kids at my high school do their extra curriculars just to write down a sentence in their resumes for the admission counselors to see" </p>
<p>when I realized that it said my school. I think a majority of kids do things becuase they like to do them. Am I wrong?</p>