<p>Just curious, these days, do most physicians believe in nature more than in nurture?</p>
<p>It appears to me that without “good enough” nurture, the talent could be destroyed or at least short-charged. But nurture could never bring up the true genius in any field.</p>
<p>However, some cultures believe in the influence of nurture (and/or “work hard” factor) more than some other cultures (at least at the high school level.) Few dares to deny the importance of nature.</p>
<p>kristin,
'Miami, I think that’s a good point if (and only if) one also has the motivation to do well in “any major in any class”
-Well,motivation is much easier to find when you actually enjoy your major and most classes, not dragging your feet thru the mud of something that you cannot stand.<br>
Again, I do not believe in aptitude. i have seen my own D. literally slaving over Histrory in HS, that is what she does when it is hard for her, using all resources, her dad, college profs., whatever it takes. i can see this being only way to success. Unfortunately, some classes you have to take no matter what major. Math out of all subject depends on understanding and skill, which could be developed only by doing enough problems. The beauty of math is that it is universal language, you can find help on-line, it can come even from a different country. Math is not taught correctly in k - 12, which creates “aptitude” discussions. Yes, there is certain degree of aptitude, but it is irrelevent at UG level in any major, we are talking about pretty low level. In addition, no math hater would be in math major where you might find a bit more math challenge.<br>
If you start a very young child in many activities, this child will be good at them, it is hard to imagine that one child is very talented in many un-related skills, it is a matter of practice. This includes social skills.</p>
<p>Miami–I think your wrong regarding math aptitude. There is such a thing. And there are clearly some individuals who are much more able than others regardless of the kinds or quality of instruction.</p>
<p>Current cognitive research is demonstrating significant physical structural differences (in the IPS) in children’s brains w/r/t math ability. I’m talking with children as young as 3. </p>
<p>These structural differences continue to persist and, in some cases, increase as individuals grow into adulthood.(I can cite sources if you’d like to see the data for yourself.)</p>
<p>I just want to add that some research seems to have shown that, if a child is practicing violin since very young age, there are physical structural differences in the brain. But the differences exist only when the children start it very young.</p>
<p>The following is just my very subjective opinion: For most people (esp. children), it is not easy to tell whether they have an aptitude for something or not for sure. It is only after they have been exposed to it in a reasonably good learning environment over a long period of time (say, 5-10 years) that we would know whether they have “it” or not. There are some exceptions – they are called genius. (But not all genius are like this, as some of them may develop their talents only after “working” or “enjoying as a hobby” for a long time.</p>
<p>An anecdotal example: How can you explain the fact that, at the all-state orchestra level, out of the top 10 chairs in the violin section, more often than not, an extremely high percentage of students start their classical instrument learning before 6 or 7 year old? (To put it bluntly, most of them start their journey using the so-called Suzuki method where the mother and the child learn and practice together from the teacher, even when the mother is not a musician herself.) I do not think all better-than-average “student musicians” flock to this particular music learning method (which is not necessarily superior than other methods. More likely, these students may have been “drilled” – if we want to use this word here – in a relatively good home environment. Parent’s attitude toward their childten’s education may be a bigger factor there.)</p>
<p>“Miami–I think your wrong regarding math aptitude. There is such a thing”</p>
<p>-yes, it is. I am not exactly saying that there is not. I am saying that at UG level, it does not matter. Anybody who works hard can get an “A” in any UG class. Yes, those who end up doing math at Grad. level, apparently will have aptitude, why they would choose it otherwise. But the whole discussion is about GPA at UG level. What I am saying is that if one has a goal of straight A’s, it is very attainable in any major. However, you have to have a clear goal. Clear goal means clear plan of action, options to pursue this plan, constant adjustments based on feedback (your current challenge level), well everybody knows those steps… we are not discussing higher level of math or any other academic subject or skill, we are at UG level in this discussion.</p>
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<p>Well…“Getting an ‘A’ in ANY UG class” may be too strong a phrase here IMHO, especially for some (but not all) freshmen who happen to be from a “weaker” high school and have not had an opportunity to “harden” themselves. I know a Harvard-Law-School bound student who get a B or B+ in the introdductory math in Freshman and his SAT was 2400 and had been in the math competition team in high school! (Talking about an “oops!” sometimes just because of some careless mistakes in a test or two.)</p>
<p>Working hard as well as having had a good enough academic preparation before college is the key. But I still think that, for some students, it is not easy for them to get an “A” in some class. For example, many premeds may be blown away in a real philosophy class which are taken by the best of the students in that major. Getting an A in some foreign lanuages could be troublesome for some ill-prepared students – it is already too late to work on the language skill when the class is started and you happen to be the one who is not as “well prepared” as your peers. Some peer students really have learned the language very well already by the end of elementary school or middle school – their language proficiency level may be much higher than those students who just receive an A in an AP foreign lanuage class and/or got a high score in SAT language.</p>
<p>I would believe that, for most students except those from a very “bad” high school, B+ or A- in most classes are achievable by just working hard, if they are not overly lopsided toward a few area only. (An anecdotal example: A rank-1 student from a non-magnet high school suffered because her interests and strenth are too lopsided toward sciences but the school requires every students to take the core education classes – it is in these “seemingly not so challenging” classes in which she sufferred GPA-wise. This is a consequence of choosing to go to a “liberal-art-ish” school for a science nerd, and many students are more well-rounded in academics (my read: these students grew up from a more “educated” or “education-focused” family) than her/him, e.g., 40% of students have a much higher SAT verbal, say 790+, than her/him, where each class gives out, say, 25% A’s.)</p>
<p>Unfortunately, even the very top from very top prep. schools discover that their HS did not prepare them very well for college. Some who stick to their goal, adjust, others might change their goals and still third will fail and drop out.
There are no failing kids from inner schools at college. These kids did not apply. In addition, those who did apply, still had to show some reasonable stats to get accepted.<br>
I am sure that almost everybody’s interests are lopsided, including both of my kids, me the rest of people I know. However, some would just work harder in classes outside of their interest and natural aptitude (that is why it is irrelevant in UG), and others decide otherwise. The first group have a higher chance of succeeding. These people are literally unstoppable, nothing will face them, they go like tanks thru all kind of obstacles, they will find their way using all possible resources. They do not need to play GPA games, calculate curves, they just rely on their hard work and absolutely do not hesitate take seeming risks by taking classes that have others with more extansive background than themsleves. These people (for example0 will have Music Minor even though they might not have as extensive pre-college prep as music majors, who will be in the same class with them. So what, they jsut going to work a bit harder.
However, either way will work as long as the final goal is achieved. Nobody cares as long as it is OK with med. schools adcoms.</p>
<p>Miami, your D went to school where her test scores, GPA and HS preperation were at the top of the class. It would be reasonable for her to have top grades in her classes. You need to understand that there are kids that go to schools where a mojority of them are like your kid. Not all can get the A’s at those schools. I’m not saying that the classes were any easier at your D’s school, but she would be at the top of the curve due to the make up of the students in the school. Not so much at other schools where there are more kids like yours vying for the A’s.</p>
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<p>I just find this very hard to believe. I went to arguably the top prep school in the metropolitan area where I’m from, and I certainly felt very well prepared to succeed in college based on both the content and the skills (both study and social) I learned in high school. My friends and siblings who went to my school (or the all-boys equivalent) were incredibly well prepared for college, and we go to schools ranging from small LACs to Ivys to state schools (like me). </p>
<p>Contrast that with my friends who went to arguably very terrible high schools (in small towns in the middle of nowhere, for example) who found college to be nearly impossible–a few dropped out after a semester or two, one is graduating a few semesters late (and has no idea what the future holds), and still others have bopped around from state schools to community colleges to tech schools. Whether it’s appropriate or not, they tend to blame their lack of college success on their poor preparation and (in many ways) inadequate high school education.</p>
<p>Of course there are outliers–kids from great schools who suck at college, and kids from terrible schools who really thrive. I know kids like that too–but the majority of the kids from great schools do well in college, and most of the kids I know from terrible schools just really have a hard time adjusting. </p>
<p>That’s not to say college isn’t challenging for those who are well prepared. I’m just saying that to deny high school preparation plays a role in college success is ridiculous.</p>
<p>So I know that major doesn’t matter, but what about a double major?</p>
<p>I started off as a social science major, and with the amount of upper-level bio classes that I have taken, I only need 3 more bio classes to get a Bio major. I only need 4 more classes for my current declared major. Should I just go for it can get a double major. Would it help at all? I know it won’t help that much, but will it be like icing on a cake? </p>
<p>My parents seem to think I should go for it, because getting 2 degrees in 4 years sounds a lot better than just getting one degree. They want to be able to brag about it to their friends LOL. Their friends’ kids took 5-6 years to get A SINGLE bachelor’s degree at some no-name school, and they graduated with a 3.0 gpa. They think that if I got 2 degrees from a well-known school in 4 years, while maintaining a decent gpa, it will look good.</p>
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<p>Med schools won’t be nearly as impressed as your parents - in fact they won’t really care at all… sorry. Yes it will be noted, and certainly won’t hurt you, but dont’ do it just for med schools.</p>
<p>Kristin,
'I just find this very hard to believe." - You compare schools in the USA to other schools in the USA. I compare schools in the USA to schools in other countries (not only Europian, some even in underdevelope countries, including some in Africa). My D. was better prepared than some others, however, not as good as she could have been if K-12 program was at higher level, I would say at much higher level that is no comparison at all, which actually prepare all kids to be able to go to any field of study their heart desires, including engineering.<br>
riseagain, As far as I know double/triple major or any combo of major(s).minor(s) is totally irelevant when applying to Med. School. One of D’s friends had triple major, the process was no different for her than anybody else. She got in based on her stats, EC’s, personality, nothing else.</p>