<p>I have a lot of sympathy for Yoder and his family, but it seems odd to blame the lenders for his death. And I’m unclear on why he could not find SOME kind of employment in the year since he got his MS. I don’t think temp agencies are picky about credit history. If he was too mentally ill to work, then that’s a different story, but still, it is unfair to blame the people who lent him money.</p>
<p>“I have a lot of sympathy for Yoder and his family, but it seems odd to blame the lenders for his death…it is unfair to blame the people who lent him money.”</p>
<p>Tony Soprano said the same thing. All he did was lend his HS buddies money to play poker and now he is the bad guy. People are unreasonable.</p>
<p>I think that part of the problem lies in some misconceptions about the wages of the university graduates on the real job market. I have checked several sites about the yearly earnings in different jobs, according to the degree you have completed. They state that a bachelor of biochem sciences earns between 30k and 40k $ a year, and a master - 75k-80k $! If this were the situation on the real market no one would have problems repaying their loans. I suggest we start a thread in the finaid section about the income in different fields and ask parents and graduates post more precise information about the degree, demands of the market and the yearly/monthly income. This will really help some students who use the Internet as the primary source of such information.</p>
<p>*wow .</p>
<p>higherlead and **gery_sun **are right on about the problem and the solution.</p>
<p>For the student and the lender the transaction is very much like financing gambling. </p>
<p>The student is using the loan proceeds to gamble on her future employment and income level. Therefore, the student (not the lender) has the “up side.” And as highlead indicated, reasonable people understand that the gambler cannot reasonably expect to walk the debt if her gamble doesn’t pay off.</p>
<p>The lender is loaning on a transaction where there is no collateral and the borrrower probably doesn’t meet credit-worthy standards at the time of the loan. </p>
<p>Since society seems to want there to be these high risk student loans available, the lender covers the risk through higher interest rates and Congress has made it impossible to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy. The non-discharge provisions seem reasonable since the borrower/student gets to keep what she used the money to acquire (her education).</p>
<p>**gery_sun ** and tokenadult have identified the problem and a potential solution to the student’s assessment of the risk/reward of borrowing for college. The study tokenadult cites identifies that even top candidate students don’t all make a rational choice in assessing loans because some students focus on getting as close to a free-ride while in college as possible without looking at the repayment “downside” of loans. </p>
<p>**gery_sun **'s point is well taken, that in order to assess whether borrowing “X” amount of money to get a degree in a particular field is a wise decision, the student needs to have a better handle on the reality of the market for people with that degree. I fear however that no matter how detailed the information on the future employment and income side becomes, human nature and the reality of “wishing and hoping” will prevail and people will get into debt well beyond what is prudent. </p>
<p>The new increase in Pell Grant money will encourage more students who do not have the present means to pay for college to enroll. It remains to be seen if this greater grant money replaces loans or if the student just puts less money into paying as she goes. If it results in students putting in less, and borrowing the same as before, the problem is not going to get better. </p>
<p>On a slightly different note, I heard several admissions officers speak on the topic of “investing” in one’s education. They all said that their experience was that students who have to earn some of what college costs while in college have a personal investment in the process, get better grades, graduate more quickly and behave better while in college that those who have college paid by other sourses.</p>
<p>
Much as I appreciate my D getting a Pell grant and happy as I am about the new increase, it is a drop in the bucket of total college expenses even for a State U. The max Pell this year was $4310 - next year and the year after it will be $4800 - nice to have the extra $500 in grant money instead of loans but hardly enough to tip the scales in the decision to attend or not attend college for financial reasons. Especially as the COA will probably increase by substantially more than the increase in the Pell. By the time the Pell hits it’s new maximum of $5400 in 2012 the COA at most (all?) colleges is sure to have increased by more tham the $600 extra. My Ds State U went up by more than that this year.</p>
<p>I think that the loans for universities are a good invent, but I believe that its their fault. The college’s guy fault because he got loaned alot and he didnt want to stop.</p>
<p>THis i quite a storyy…whata shame he made that desition… He would’ve think better and would killed himself.</p>
<p>Just because all I can afford is a Volkswagen, should Bentley or Rolls Royce feel sorry for me and sell me one of their models for a pittance? People need to know their finances and their overall situation in life and plan sensibly for their tomorrows!</p>
<p>Did he know if he doesn’t graduate and stay in school forever, he doesn’t have to pay his school debts?? (or at least that’s what I heard in my loan counseling session) They’ll keep on growing but since he killed himself anyways it wouldn’t have hurt to just get several Ph.Ds and stay alive…</p>
<p>I am a relative of Jason’s. I am saddened by many of the comments made on this post. I know some of it is because you don’t understand all of the facts. I will try and answer a few. </p>
<p>Jason did not start college right out of highschool so he did not spend all that time accumulating loans. He did not live a wild life chasing women or drinking beer. He achieved his associates degree, bachlors, and his masters all pretty well consecutively. He took out additional loans so that he could pay for school and some for housing. He did work on campus as a TA and in the chem lab making some money to live on. Jason had several horrific life events that occured while he was in school. Jason sought counciling on several occations. He had no insurance and was at the mercy of free counciling services. He at times, was treated with medicine but he had little money. He gave up counciling. We pushed him to continue but you cannot make an adult go. </p>
<p>Jason send out many many resumes. He did try and get a job outside his field toward the end of his life. </p>
<p>I think combined with his depression and the constant calls of “when are you going to pay us” just caught up to him. He felt like he was a burden to his family . . . especially to his mother. He was ashamed. He reached out to the school career services for help but nothing materialized.</p>
<p>I cannot say what the exact amout is but a lot of the $$ owed was late fees and fines. </p>
<p>I talked to Jason a few days before he past and he gave no indication that he was preparing to end his life. He was a sweet kind hearted individual that could not keep his head above water. </p>
<p>I think in the end, I wish that the loan companies could have tried to work with him until he could obtain employment. We all wished he would have held out especially since he received two calls after his untimely dealth.</p>
<p>Thank you for the insight, Jeckah. I hope your family will find some peace.</p>
<p>Jeckah, my condolences for your family’s loss.</p>
<p>Jeckah, thank you for sharing some of Jason’s situation and my condolences to you and Jason’s family.</p>
<p>Jeckah said–
I think in the end, I wish that the loan companies could have tried to work with him until he could obtain employment.</p>
<p>Let’s try to fix this college entry system to have more reasonableness and humanity in it. The admission process is intense and almost absurd; then comes the Financial aid process which adds to the absurdity, with the lack of true aid, or of loans masquerading as aid; then the mask is removed to reveal a monster.</p>
<p>My condolences also.. that is a very sad to hear.. Hardworking to pay off the loans but couldn’t handle that pressure from those companies…</p>
<p>Um this may become a novel/swan song/Hell finally froze over/Gabriel’s horn/fiction story…
Hello all. First off I can relate to JASON YODER (real napoleon dynamite and other suicidals we haven’t heard about yet because of our nationality…maybe the dead can see through eyes that are alive). I am also 35 BUT (Afro American…let the stereotypes and prejudice begin) drowning in college debt (almost paid off credit card debt). I work at a sports retail chain making a living wage that now seems like slave wages because of garnishments. I had to move into a roommate situation so I can put myself in a better position to pay off my hideous-makes-me-want-to go sell drugs, become a pornstar/male jiggalo, rob a bank, sell software illegally, or become a hitman for hire college debt. I feel I am so close to the point where suicide doesn’t seem like the right option (because I read this forum on the day when I felt like seriously jumping in front of a train) so to all that contributed at this point good or bad/pointless talking out of your ass comments I thank you.
I recently been getting phone calls from another lawfirm collection agency (or whatever they call themselves these days) pretty much threatening to further garnish my already what-canImake with rice to eat for the rest of my life check. I would also like to state at this time that I had a bout with depression on a level where the doctors that tried to diagnose me as being bi-polar or schizophrenic ten years ago. I’ve been off medication since 2000 and I will admit that YMCA low income section 8 housing (you make more your rent goes higher in less in than a year…how is this helping?) medication & religion isn’t always the best solution but, every little bit helps. Right now I really just want to vent what is going through my mind so please forgive me if what you read from me this day forward (or on my tombstone that I can’t afford). Is there any lives that may already be at stake (because we as Americans are fermenting our own American Bin Ladens/9-11 contributors and not realizing it yet) still reading this thread? Hello?</p>
<p>For Jason’s family and friends, condolences. I have a certain unease about posting here, but having read this thread, it was imperative to comment.
First, despite all the talk about choices and ‘personal’ responsibility, colleges have played a decisive role in setting up these conditions of desperation. First the costs of education, even at ‘lesser schools’ have escalated insanely, and often for no cause a reasonable person could justify. For example, I had worked for an institution where the library was so dated as to be virtually useless, but this institution somehow could spend 2 million on a bell tower. Second because of collegiate incest with corporate entities, there are major conflicts of interest arising. Here in Colorado one institition has turned over its scholarship administration to a private corporation. Fine, some here enraptured with somewhat vague ideas of collegiate morality might be inclined to state, its ‘the free market’. However, this company has a vested interest in ensuring student debt, and as such will not administer monies which are not theirs, without agendas.
Third, student loan debt often kills the future of students from the lower economic tiers with an appalling finality. They often attend schools which proportionately cost as much as the first tier schools. And because of their status its much harder for them have the connections which the affluent students will attain from their backgrounds. So, the social darwinist argument here can only be defended as a direct acknowledgment of exactly how stratified US society has become. So please refrain from the postmodernist Horatio Alger nonsense. These are exceptional cases, and not the norm.
Finally, one of the reasons the loan servers are coming down so hard on so many people, is political. This summer, both the Bush administration, and Congress had made plans to cut the subsidies for these private companies a paltry amount, 5/10s of a percentage points. In all probability within the next few months these companies will exact strong arm tactics on anyone holding student loans, who cannot pay at the level which these people desire…which will make the tactics of Mussolini’s thugs look positively genteel. And the Mussolini analogy applies if you know the original name and motivations for that contingent.
And to quell the inevietable comments that I am some lost waif, disgruntled student, or ‘failure’. I am part of the collegiate system as a professor. And even with that, the pay isn’t anywhere close to the costs of the education needed to obtain these positions. And in many regards, I have become shamed by my collegiate association, because all the promises made, do not come anywhere close to the costs. So, yes the college system and their corporate cronies do have a moral debt owed which they do not acknowledge. And quite truthfully how can any system last which damns the aspirations of the intelligent and talented of their society? Especially when it’s premised on a form of social propaganda which no longer has any real reference to reality. And losing intelligent people is detrimental to any society. Whether they are lost because they are crushed by it, or opt out, this situation cannot continue. The promise of education should never have been allowed to be compromised by base motivations, and that includes profiteering. Especially from preying on the dreams of others to raise their status or their knowledge. Other countries can educate their people, without damning them. If the US cannot do so, or will not because a very small percentage benefit from the current situation, reform is sorely needed.</p>
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</p>
<p>Which countries?</p>
<p>Germany would be a good example. The Germans spend proportionally more to support education than here in the US. Granted they do require people to make career choices much earlier, and to demonstrate ability to meet standards within a given field at a much higher level. However, once the choice is made, the German system provides much more support, especially at the Bach level.
In my experience, German students who transfer into US colleges are two to three years ahead of their American comrades. As this is so, exactly what have the American students been paying for? In conversations with the German students I have yet to hear of 2 million dollar bell towers, obscene rates of pay for college presidents, and tenured faculty who are seen less on campus than UFO’s or bigfoot.
In part the problems with the loans, and education costs are directly the result of the US government substantially curtailing support. Such as pell grants and other supportive programs are a good example. Since the 2000’s students have been compelled to borrow more to pay for escalating education costs, because other means of aid have been hacked. And for non legacy students that’s a major issue. Even more so because the fields their social status allow them to easily enter, generally do not pay anything close to the wages compensatory for the costs of the education. Teaching certificate programs being a good example of this problem.
The current predation on students, especially in regards to loans, does seem to be predominately a US issue.</p>
<p>Germany has a higher suicide rate than the United States. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/[/url]”>http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/</a></p>