Many posters who think they know something about college admissions don't know

College Search & Selection
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<p>what they are talking about. What's worse, they don't know, that they don't know what they are talking about. </p>

<p>This love affair with SAT scores. Most of the top schools do not just admit the highest SAT scorers. To get into many programs at the top schools, SAT scores mean very little. There are many programs where passion, activities and creative thinking are more important than SAT scores and even grades :eek: when trying to get into a school. </p>

<p>SAT scores measure a very small part of human intelligence. Intelligence is more complex than SAT scores.</p>

<p>Using SAT scores to measure intelligence is similar to describing a person as 6 ft. tall. There is more to a person than height. There is more to intelligence than SAT scores.</p>

<p>The use of "objective data" to rank schools precisely is absurd. What data should be used? How should it be compiled? How should it be verified? How should it be measured? What data should be omitted and what shouldn't? How important should each data point be? Is each objective data point relevant to everybody?</p>

<p>Why is it so important for some posters to have rankings verify their choices of favorite schools?</p>

<p>This idea that graduate programs in a school don't affect undergraduates at the same schools.... where did this idea come from? At most schools, if you are capable you can take graduate classes with graduate students as an undergraduate. I see people in this site busting their butts to get into graduate schools... the same schools where they trash the undergraduate programs. As if they know the first thing about the undergraduate programs. Well, if these posters are lucky, maybe in the not too distant future, they might find themselves sitting in a classroom in their first choice graduate school, sitting along with a few undergraduates. The same undergraduates who these posters say are getting an inferior education.</p>

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<p>Well, apparently there have been studies done that do state a correlation between IQ and SAT scores – what either means, I can not say, but the former supposedly “measures” intelligence.</p>

<p>But really, saying that SAT scores mean very little is pushing it. They matter enough to count. I don’t think I’ve seen a “Chances” thread where anyone replied with a “2400? shoo-in!” Thus, I can only assume that most people here know that a great SAT score is not all it takes. They only say a high SAT score for some schools to maximize chances for the so-called typical applicant, and not even as the only factor. If someone is extremely passionate and exhibit such a passion to the college in their application, then more power to them: they are not the typical applicant.</p>

<p>Most of us use our grades and other “accomplishments” to impress the admission officers to accept us. Passion is something else that may be used to achieve the same purpose.</p>

<p>As for graduate schools and rankings, meh. I’ve just gone through the undergrad application process. Haven’t even visited the boards.</p>

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<p>Amen to your title, but when I read on, with all due respect, I saw another maybe not so correct position.</p>

<p>“SAT scores mean very little.” This is simply not correct according to common data sets.</p>

<p>I think when you say SAT scores are not important, you must qualify it by saying once you’re above a certain number. Harvard will take a 2250 who’s more interesting over a 2400 tool certainly. But the fact that the top schools come up with the same high numbers year over year and list scores in the most important section of the common data sets says it all. A post like this gives the impression that a 2000 score makes an ivy totally doable for the unhooked to many, the facts say otherwise.</p>

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<p>“To get into many programs at the top schools, SAT scores mean very little.” </p>

<p>That’s the sentence I wrote.</p>

<p>I followed with this…“There are many programs where passion, activities and creative thinking are more important than SAT scores and even grades when trying to get into a school.” </p>

<p>I hope this clears things up.</p>

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<p>Could you site a few of those programs along with some proof of this?</p>

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<p>You know what…I’m not going to do this. You can believe me or not.</p>

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<p>SAT scores are directly correlated to family income, and to a lesser extent, parental educational achievement.</p>

<p>It’s a reasoning test. It originally was created to measure intelligence, but as the years progressed, the SAT acronym that once stood for Scholastic Aptitude Test now has no deeper meaning–it’s simply the SAT.</p>

<p>It measures how well you can take a test. Good test-takers vs. bad test-takers. This is in addition to the correlation I stated above that affects you having had access to previous test prep or study materials before taking the SAT.</p>

<p>The SAT was thought to measure intelligence, but now it’s just said to measure reasoning. There’s so many other factors involved on test day (illness, emotional trauma, whatever!) that obviously what occurs on that one day of 4-hour testing does not determine your entire worth and intelligence–I think everyone will agree on that.</p>

<p>With that said, SAT scores do count for a lot. No one said the system was perfect, or fair, but that’s just the way life is.</p>

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<p>Please do enlighten us what these programs are–do you mean those schools which submitting SAT scores is optional? Because they still do consider the transcript to be the utmost importance. College admissions is first and foremost if you can handle college work at the college, after all. Grades and rigor of courseload are indeed incredibly important.</p>

<p>What programs do you speak of?</p>

<p>By refusing to elaborate on these programs, you simultaneously weaken your argument and make it hard for anyone to follow your argument and believe you.</p>

<p>I, for one, do not believe you. Please provide some examples.</p>

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<p>Lots of people on CC “know” things. And other people “know” things that contradict the things of the first group of people. You have to sift through a lot of posts, then use your judgment as to what advice to keep, and what to toss. Law of averages.</p>

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<p>dstark, I agree with much of what you say, but the problem I have with your statement:</p>

<p>“To get into many programs at the top schools, SAT scores mean very little. There are many programs where passion, activities and creative thinking are more important than SAT scores and even grades when trying to get into a school.”</p>

<p>Is that it tends to contribute to that “lottery” mentality that anyone can make it into the most selective colleges. I know that’s not what you mean to say, but that’s how it can be interpreted. So many times on these boards I read about kids constructing unreasonable lists that leave them with few options in the spring because they believed that if they threw enough applications at selective schools, they’d get into one of them. What they don’t understand is that the vast majority of the time, “passion, activities and creative thinking” come into play once a student has demonstrated that they are a qualified, competitive applicant via their gpa and test scores. Yes there is the occasional exception, but addressing those few really shortchanges the many that are hopeful but ill informed about their chances at these schools.</p>

<p>One of the reasons I’m saying this is because I’ve just gone through the transfer process with my D and so have been reading the Transfer forum for the past few months. It’s sad to see the number of kids that are starting out already planning to transfer since they didn’t get into their dream school for next fall. They won’t be giving their schools much of a chance, and the probability of transferring to a more selective school is actually much smaller than as a freshman in many cases. It chills me to see statements from a long time poster saying that SAT scores “mean very little” in the admissions process. While not even close to perfect, the reality is that they are a tool that is used by AOs in evaluating applicants.</p>

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<p>We aren’t all that bad entomom…</p>

<p>I waited two years to transfer =).</p>

<p>Yeah people places too much weight on certain things and too little on others. You contradict yourself by promoting your own self-awareness but even you – you still define the admissions process by a set of standards which you believe in wholeheartedly – standards that lie well outside the standards of others. </p>

<p>It’s not singularly SAT scores though – this I say with regret in the faint hopes of not looking like a condescending jackass – but for some transfers, it’s the desire for a school without ever researching it or having a reason to go. That hunt for prestige shows so quickly in essays and usually kids use other reasons such as diversity to find solace in their rejections. </p>

<p>There are many things.</p>

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<p>When you read, hear things, you should verify the information through other channels. You get as close to the primary source as possible. Many time you are given misinformation. However, the purpose of being around others discussing a given topic, like college admissions, is that you may learn of something that interests you or can benefit you that you did not know and would not have known in your usual circles. It gives you a start and direction to check up on the information. Sometimes even if the original info is incorrect, you can find details or other info that is valuable to your specific situation.</p>

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<p>“To get into many programs at the top schools, SAT scores mean very little. There are many programs where passion, activities and creative thinking are more important than SAT scores and even grades when trying to get into a school.”</p>

<p>“Is that it tends to contribute to that “lottery” mentality that anyone can make it into the most selective colleges. I know that’s not what you mean to say, but that’s how it can be interpreted.”</p>

<p>I guess anything can be interpreted in ways that weren’t intended. Needing passion, activities and creative thought to get into some programs… I don’t know how thinking college admissions is a lottery from my statement would occur. It’s not a lottery. </p>

<p>Everything should be verified and everything read here and elsewhere should be read with a very skeptical eye… including what I write.</p>

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<p>Ever piece of info that one reads on CC should be taken very carefully. I have found some very interesting and helpful suggestions, etc that people have posted on CC. However, I certainly don’t follow the advice of most that post on this site. One must weigh the info carefully!</p>

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<p>I have to say, you don’t know much about college admissions, and what is worse is that you don’t know that you don’t know much about college admissions. While I will level with you with the graduate school thing and (mostly) on college rankings…though that doesn’t really have much to do with college admissions…your views on SAT scores are completely wrong. Even admissions officers at top schools have verified this, SAT scores are almost always the second most important part of your application, first comes the transcript. You may want to rephrase your statement into, “a top SAT score doesn’t guarantee you admission to a top school like a lot of people on CC think”, which is a statement I wholeheartedly, 100% agree with (after coming to that realization with myself as a case study). Just because you see kids with 2300+ SATs rejected from HYPS doesn’t mean SATs matter very little. Would you say that because you see even more kids with a 4.0 UW rejected from all Ivies, that the transcript matters even less? Hell no. Anyone who would conclude that would be laughed off CC. Thinking test scores matter very little is plainly naive.</p>

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<p>Dstark. I guess that’s good advice but it’s not applicable. When people post topics, I would hope they do it for the sake of getting many subjective – SUBJECTIVE – opinions from different people who know a bit about w/e it is. This site is like a jumpstart for the admissions process and the further along you get, the less you need it. It’s almost an introductory seminar to college admissions, and after the third week of class, it’s time to start recording lectures or not going at all. </p>

<p>This site is also great for talking about things that aren’t found anywhere else. It’s good for some things, it’s bad for others. Hawkette is a very visible example of that – often introducing topics that I never thought I’d care about until its 3am and I’m on page 14 watching Sakky lawyer someone to death. </p>

<p>Your rant just doesn’t seem to hit the spots I think you wanted to hit? It just seems like you think the people who come here are limited enough to use the opinions – OPINIONS – they find here as factual basis for spending a long four years at an institution that can define them for a long time. That would seem borderline ridiculous.</p>

<p>Or maybe I’m not getting your point.</p>

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<p>for HYP, after a certain point, 1450 (old scale), 700+ on SAT IIs, your scores don’t matter, they are looking to fill a diverse class, they need editors for their student newspapers, basketball players, violinist, bowlers, creative writers, which is why it’s trivial to look at a 10 point year to year increase in SAT score for elite schools as some sort of gain, and you get these articles about how someone with perfect SATs and grades get rejected. </p>

<p>I would imagine it’s pretty fun working in the admissions office of HYP, where they never have to worry too much about a candidate turning them down for financial reasons, or even yield. They just look around their school and see what they need and the students will most likely come.</p>

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<p>Keefer, again, check the facts. Your numbers are not supported by common data sets.</p>

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<p>Due to the paucity of other information and the lack of standardization in grading patterns and class ranks across the country, the standardized test score is the single best clue for outsiders to use in judging the strength of a student body. Standardized testing is an excellent proxy for selectivity as there is great correlation between standardized test scores and other aspects of one’s application. </p>

<p>The National Association of College Admissions Counselors (NACAC) agrees with those of us who think that the standardized tests are an important data point in the college admissions process. Here is how they rank the various factors traditionally used:</p>

<p>Considerable Weight , Moderate Weight , Limited or No Weight </p>

<p>75.9% , 17.4% , 6.7% , Grades in college prep courses
61.5% , 25.3% , 13.2% , Strength of curriculum
60.4% , 27.9% , 11.7% , Standardized Test scores (SAT, ACT)
51.2% , 36.4% , 12.5% , Grades in all courses
27.9% , 30.6% , 41.5% , Essay and/or writing sample
23.1% , 38.6% , 38.3% , Class rank
21.2% , 40.7% , 38.0% , Counselor recommendation
20.8% , 31.2% , 48.1% , Student’s demonstrated interest
19.5% , 41.1% , 39.3% , Teacher recommendation
10.4% , 23.1% , 66.5% , Interview
7.6% , 37.0% , 55.4% , Extra-curricular activities
7.6% , 23.5% , 68.8% , Subject test scores (AP, IB)
6.3% , 13.4% , 80.4% , State graduation exam scores
5.2% , 8.5% , 86.3% , SAT II scores
2.9% , 21.5% , 75.5% , Work</p>

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<p>I think people sometimes confuse the two following propositions:

  1. People with very high SAT scores still get rejected from top schools.
  2. Some people with lower SAT stores nevertheless get accepted to to top schools.
    But even taken together, these don’t mean that SAT scores don’t matter much. In fact, for the vast majority of applicants, they matter a lot. They may not matter as much to somebody who is a recruited athlete, or a legacy, or something of that sort. Also, in some programs–such as a music conservatory, for example–other talents may matter much more. But that is really the exception to the rule.</p>