<p>No comparison. look how tuff it is to get into ND vs. MU. ND is academically far superior. ND has a national reputation vs. a regional rep. for MU. ND has a better football team, but than again MU has not lost a football game in 51 years.</p>
<p>Keep in mind college is much more than pointy eggheads with high ACTs. It is about, among many qualities, compassion, service, justice and knowledge. I hope it is not measured by one’s football team.</p>
<p>Edgar writes-" Keep in mind college is much more than pointy eggheads with high ACTs. It is about, among many qualities, compassion, service, justice and knowledge. I hope it is not measured by one’s football team. "</p>
<p>Football aside, You cannot begin to have a discussion about MU academics vs. UW, ND, or Minnie. Really? Look at the incoming freshman profiles. Mu has a 25 act, Minnie=28, UW=29, ND=30 plus. My son chose Minnie over Mu because of the elite attitude of the Mu “college prep high school” students. ACT scores do matter. Mu has students coming out of private high schools, pampered. Wrong, they were not prepared for the brutal " real world". I.E. Jesuit h.s. in gmo, where they hand out A’s like cardboard. They offer 5 ap courses. These students walk into colleges in 13 weeks and get their butt handed to them from difficult public h.s. students where Johnny learned what real competiton is like. The campus is 86 acres, ( watch out if you step 2 blocks off), Minnie is 990 acres. ND is more difficult then UW to get in to. Mu is not in the same discussion for admission. You are talking top 25 vs. 108th. Football does matter unless You are Ivy or caltech, Mit. Comparing Mu to ND shows nothing but ignorance. My son turned down Mu with a big academic scholarship and they still want him to change his mind as of 5/31.</p>
<p>Geez, Pope, you really have a grudge against Marquette and private high school education. The data you cite is inaccurate or out-of-date (which sort of invalidates your argument). For the record, I’m a UW alumn and fan. My son chose Marquette - good for him.</p>
<p>From the National Center for Education Statistics (nces.ed.gov)</p>
<p>ACT Scores for admitted students (25% and 75% percentiles)
Notre Dame: 31-34 (2010)
UW-Madison: 26-30 (2009)
UM -Twin Cities: 24-30 (2010)
Marquette: 24-29 (2010) </p>
<p>Acceptance Rates:
Notre Dame: 29% - (2010) 23% for this past year
Wisconsin: 67% (2009)
Minnesota: 48% (2010)
Marquette: 63% (2010)</p>
<p>With respect to school rankings: US News (for what its worth) has it this way for 2011:
Notre Dame #25
Wisconsin #45
Minnesota #64
Marquette #75</p>
<p>From a numbers only perspective, looks to me like Marquette and Minnesota are not too far apart at all. Marquette is not too far away from Wisconsin either. They are different environments to be sure, but academically they are fairly equivalent with Marquette falling into 4th place by a nose, perhaps. You have to look at individual programs to really compare.</p>
<p>Now if you look back at the original posts for this thread you should see that this was never a “Is Marquette better than Notre Dame” question. Clearly Notre Dame is one of the elite schools in the country. The original question was more concerned about whether Marquette or Notre Dame was the best place for a particular person given that person’s particular situation. Notre Dame is awesome. However for some kids (even high achieving kids with great ACTs), Marquette may very well be the better school.</p>
<p>The characteristics you attribute to Marquette students exist equally at other schools as well. The same complaints have been made about Notre Dame students and I have witnessed the same characteristics at Wisconsin - its a horse a-piece. </p>
<p>With respect to private high schools - I expect your mileage may vary. In my experience with the private Catholic high schools in my area of the country (Wisconsin), those schools outperform the public schools by a pretty good margin (looking at ACTs which sort of validates the higher average GPAs). National average ACT score is like a 20. Wisconsin’s average is a bit over 22 and the Catholic high school my son graduated from is 26 for 2010 with nearly 100% of the graduating students (class size about 140) taking the ACT. Most public high schools manage no more than about 60% of their students taking the ACT.</p>
<p>We have some very good public schools in Wisconsin and they produce some very good students. I’m sure you could find some private high schools that do not do such a good job of preparing their students for college. But for every one of those I could find a dozen public schools that do an equally poor job. Most of the graduates of the private schools, in my area anyway, do extremely well in the nation’s universities. I won’t speculate on your motivation for bashing private high schools, but frankly your complaint seems contrived and bogus to me.</p>
<p>Ajax,
Well thought retort. I agree with many of your points. There is a perfect school for all students. I guess I look at the public vs. private high school track with jaded eyes. My kids public high school pumps out scholars and athletes. The competition is insane for both. I went to his academic awards nite this week. 98 kids will graduate over a 4.0. 123 will have over a 3.5 out of 668. MIT, Stanford, Cornell, Harvard, Princeton, Caltech, Cal-Berkely (9), UCLA, UC- you name it. API of 868. My son’s 31 ACT, 3.8 (5.0 this semester with 5 ap’s) will get him ranked 188/688. Yikes, but he will kick butt in the fall. Now athletics? His school has the #2 behind Luck at Stanford for QB. His conference has produced Mark Sanchez and Carson Palmer. His tennis team has 2 players who don’t play on the team. Jack sock won the U.S. open junior title last summer and lost in the first round as a 16 year old in the men’s U.S.open to a russian. Mika de costa is ranked 22 nd in the nation. Most Wisconsin private high school athletes would not make the frosh team in any sport at my son’s H.S. Heck, at 54, I beat the #1 singles player at the “elite” private H.S. in Milwaukee. That’s pathetic. Academically, what % of say Dominican’s 78 graduates are going on to a top 100 ranked school? And how many will be around in 4 years? Maybe University is more “real world”. idk. Given a choice between ND and MU academically, You are talking apples and oranges. Not to say the right kid could flourish at MU, make good networking contacts and do just fine in s.e. Wisconsin. In California, You mention MU and people are asking what state that’s in. Interesting debate. I will always choose the battle hardened students from top public high schools over the coddled, “bubble kids” from the little sisters by the lake, any lake.</p>
<p>I also have a hard time with any reported stats from a private H.S. as they do not have to report any real numbers. Just look at AP classes offered vs. public high schools and teacher credentials. Frankly, it is an unfair advantage to the public schools. I now see why Homestead will stop reporting class rank. I will take the 30th % at Homestead over the 10th$/% at a private any day.</p>
<p>Hey Pope, I can see where you’re coming from on this… Looks like you’re kids have had a great high school experience! Very impressive performance on the 5 AP courses - wow! Congrats to him!. </p>
<p>I’m sure the larger public schools will always be able to field stronger teams/athletics just due to the larger enrollment - there is a larger pool to draw from. They will also have some very strong scholars. A high school with 2000+ kids will have many more really good athletes than a school with an enrollment of 500 (public or private). With the exception of maybe basketball, private schools and public schools of similar enrollment sizes seem pretty equivalent on the field/court. Some schools have stronger programs than others regardless of public/private status. I single out basketball because, annually, private schools seem to be very well represented at the state tournament semi-finals/finals in the smaller divisions (at least in Wisconsin). Also, as of Saturday, the four soccer teams remaining in the girls Wisconsin state soccer tournament for Division 2 are all Catholic private school teams: Madison Edgewood, Appleton Xavier, Green Bay Notre Dame and Milwaukee Catholic Memorial.</p>
<p>As far as academics… I can’t speak to Dominican in Milwaukee, but I can speak to Xavier High School in Appleton. My son had a class of about 140. He’s a 3.94 GPA with an ACT of 34 (he did not do as well in his AP classes tho - averaging around 4.25 on those). 19 classmates had GPA’s greater than 4.0, about another 25 had GPAs of 3.75+ and about 50% of the class has better than 3.5. This class’ average ACT score is unpublished so far, but the class of 2010 had an average of 26.0 and this year’s class will probably be a shade better than that - with 98-100% of the class taking the test. There are four National Merit Finalists (most in the area for a single school including the 2000+ enrollment public schools). Top 100 ranked universities being attended by class of 2011 (that I can recall with certainty - I know there are a few more) include: Notre Dame, U-Wisconsin, U-Minnesota, U-Illinois, Northwestern, Marquette, St Louis University. A quick count… about 50 kids are attending the above school list with UW, UM and Marquette probably accounting for 75% of those. Most of the rest are attending smaller liberal arts colleges across the country. All in all, I think the percentages are on par with what you have experienced with your kids. Regardless, I’m proud of that class.</p>
<p>I guess, what I’m trying to say, is that private schools can be very good schools and certainly as good as public schools in many cases and better in some cases - also poorer in some cases. I chose private schools for my kids for reasons in addition to good athletic tradition and academics (and my son’s school has a strong tradition in both). My kids would have done as well at the local public schools and many in the local public schools are as good as anyone from my private school. Seems to me the real key to success is parental interest and involvement more than the school attended. I’m guessing you are one of those parents too.</p>
<p>Now, so this post is at last somewhat on topic… 
With respect to MU vs. ND. I have to concede. In a general context, hands down Notre Dame is a world-recognized academic powerhouse. If you can get into Notre Dame and it’s where a kid wants to be and the finances are not a barrier it’s absolutely the way to go. Marquette, a very good school in its own right, is definitely a regional entity. I’m not at all surprised that people in CA don’t recognize the name. I consider MU the second best school in Wisconsin after UW-Madison (my personal favorite). I have some relatives, having no experience with college, who thought Marquette U was located in Upper Michigan - so I can appreciate your statement! :)</p>
<p>Good luck to your son at Minnesota! My sister is a UM alum and works in one of the libraries currently. She loves it there!</p>
<p>SHHHHHHH! The lack of response to this post speaks volumes. Granted, private schools can attract the helicopter parent, well to do, who can stroke a check for johnny to be a star. Yes, they can hand out athletic scholarships to elite sports. When push comes to reality in 8 weeks, the private school kids will be shocked as to how far behind they are to the biggie public schools. once again, privates do not report real test scores. I will always take a top public over a private any day. look at the top 500 H.s. schools in the U.S. today . University-Irvine, ca. OC #8 Troy- fullerton, ca.OC #32 Aliso niguel- #232 OC Capo- #492 OC… Hell Tesoro was not ranked. I can assure You my son will walk into Minnie and smoke the competition. Heck, he was ranked top 4% at Bubble u, i.e. marquette and they still want him to switch now. Frankly as a UW grad, 1980, the 86 acre MU campus bored me in 12 minutes. The northshore of Ill. coeds, bored me in 9 minutes. Just my opinion. My last statement about Marquette is Football matters. If UWM goes with a program before MU. look out. Here is a post which may get a response. 3 active posts total for MU. Yawn.</p>
<p>It’s easy to generalize about public vs private especially within a given locale. That said, my experience clearly shows that all private schools are not created equal and the variance as you move across the country is significant.</p>
<p>Here in Dallas there is a HUGE difference from top to bottom of all privates. The two top privates, The Hockaday School (an all girls prep school) and St. Mark’s School of Texas (a non-denominational all boys prep school) are among the nation’s finest schools and blow away even the best public schools in the entire state of Texas. They have rigid entrance exams and requirements and provide an education unparallelled anywhere else in the state. Neither school is a “if you can write the check, you can get in” school and both have enormous ($100 million plus endowments) that provide for a good amount of financial aid, even for middle class students.</p>
<p>My S graduated from SMS in 2004 in a class of 82 boys. 19 were NMSF and 39 more were NM commended. 28 boys matriculated to Ivies, MIT or Stanford with 7 accepted to Yale along with multiples to Duke, Rice, U Chicago, Wash U and others of that ilk.</p>
<p>His class was not unique and each year both Hockaday and St Mark’s turn out large numbers of NMSFs when compared to class size and have enviable college placement results.</p>
<p>Parochial high schools run the gamut here; one is almost a peer of the two schools I mentioned, but it is really small (30 boys to a class) and has a VERY rigid European curriculum. Jesuit Prep (all boys) and its sister school, Ursuline Academy (all girls), fall in the tier below SMS and Hock along with two other coed schools, one an Episcopal school.</p>
<p>The remainder of the Catholic elementary and high schools and other private schools honestly are not the equal of the better public schools but do provide a “safe haven” and religious instruction for those so inclined and in many cases are far better alternatives to the neighborhood public if within the city limits.</p>
<p>The suburban publics that are the standouts locally are all HUGE with class sizes ranging from the 800s to several thousand in a few. With 2000 kids in a graduating class, only the top kids (or athletes) get any real attention and college counseling is one place that really suffers the most for the greater number of kids.</p>
<p>Obviously this “debate” will vary from city to city. I just wanted to point out the danger of generalization in this often heated discussion.</p>
<p>Just my $0.02</p>
<p>popeyoung, UWM will not have a football team, ever. Even if they would, the school has zero school spirit and would not be able to rally around it. Look at its basketball team, it almost made the NCAA tourney and that was an accomplishment for the school–and they STILL couldn’t get students to come out. It is the most bizarre mix of metro Milwaukee adults and “18-22” ACT high school students you will ever see.</p>
<p>Well.
Now I am defending uwm vs. mu? Really?
The UWM-Panthers made the “sweet 16” a few years back. Is an MU education worth an extra $80k over 4 years? Without d-1 football, mu is lumped in with many other fog a mirror schools. Again, Milwaukee is just another San Antonio without the Brewers. Pitt means more due to football. At the end of the day can You rely on MU reporting true ACT stats vs. any public? The Marquette “mafia” will live and thrive within a tiny radius of Wisconsin. Please do not compare MU academically to ND or the Badgers. 3 Religion classes and tuff science courses like Astronomy I guess keep the bball team eligible. The AD just resigned over the athletic sex scandals, how is the true reporting of on campus crime doing? lol</p>
<p>Popeyoung5,</p>
<p>You obviously have an ax to grind with Marquette likely due to some past rejection or perceived offence. Regardless of that, since you mentioned Marquettes AD, why dont you elaborate a bit on NDs AD and his nauseating CYA-legalese response explaining the tragic incident in which a student videographer was killed while filming football practice? His athletic departments lack of safety procedures should have led to his resignation instead of his insulting excuses. Too bad you also didnt mention the sex assault accusations against a football player and its tragic aftermath for another student heres a good summary of both stories: [Prosecutor</a> eyes Notre Dame rape allegation - NCAA Football - CBSSports.com](<a href=“http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/14338753/prosecutor-eyes-notre-dame-rape-allegation/]Prosecutor”>http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/14338753/prosecutor-eyes-notre-dame-rape-allegation/).</p>
<p>Your pointless attempts to cite specific instances or details in order to prove one school is better than another is just that pointless. Move on and contribute something worthwhile.</p>
<p>“Techno” Point well taken. Must be a Catholic thing to cover up scandals. Just found out my old friend’s son got into Marquette with a 2.8 and a 28 act from Cedarburg H.S. White kid, no issues. He must have pictures of priests because he sure as hell can’t hit a three. That’s pathetic. LMAO. P.S. No issues with MU for me. Accepted many years ago and gladly declined.</p>
<p>Just a quick follow up. 2 threads for Marquette active? Yawn.</p>
<p>Sorry, Typo, he had a 21 act. Yikes, that’s UW- Hyphon status.</p>
<p>@popeyoung - With friends like you I guess your old friend needs no enemies. Just shows what a class act you are making fun of a minor’s record on a public forum. Besides you might not know and your “old friend’s” son might have a disability and he could actually be overachieving. GPA & test scores are not the complete package in an application.</p>
<p>newsdrms and others - please know that popeyoung5 is not targeting MU exclusively. If you check out his other posts you’ll find he is an equal opportunity purveyor of meanness. Additionally his children can do no wrong and his way is always right. Just thought you might like to know.</p>
<p>I’ve held my tongue since my last post because it is pointless and I just don’t care that much.</p>
<p>Popeyoung5 clearly has strongly held opinions and seems to reject any data that suggests he may not be quite right. He does not like to deal with facts that counter his opinions. He makes claims in his posts with data that is inaccurate then he white-washes it all with a huge, broad brush by saying that MU’s (or any private institution’s) report on ACT scores can’t be trusted because its ‘private’. Well the ACT scores are also reported by the National Center for Education Statistics (nces.ed.gov). I can’t say if the scores are audited in some way to ensure accuracy, but it would be pretty stupid for any institution to lie about such things. Do you really want to stand behind your accusation that MU lies about its scores? Anyway, anyone can go look and decide for themselves where MU stands in relation to UW or UMN. See my earlier post for a summary.</p>
<p>If popeyoung’s claims about his son’s HS academics can be believed, he should be proud of his son because those are admirable scores, but frankly, his kid’s scores are just not that big of a deal. I know dozens of kids from my local, much smaller, private HS who scored better. Then he claims that his son is ranked in the top 4% at “Bubble-U” - meaning Marquette. Well he says his son has an ACT of 31, but MU’s report for this incoming class has 12% of the class having ACTs of 31 or better. So a 31 can be no better than the top 12% - still very impressive, but that’s not 4%. I’d be curious to know where he came up with 4%. Who’s making up number’s now? Really, who cares though - its pointless.</p>
<p>Then he says that as of June 23, Marquette was still recruiting his kid. I highly doubt that. MU has its own waiting list and when his son declined admission to MU around May 1, they picked somebody else. MU had 22,000 applications this year for 2000 spots. They had a decent wait-list and probably didn’t really care that his kid turned them down. BTW: MU received more applications than Notre Dame (~22000 for MU vs ~16800 for ND) - just saying. No doubt his son may still be getting some literature from MU in the mail, just like my kid still gets stuff from UW - that’s because he’s still on some mailing list not because the school is on its knees begging him to change his mind. Really, trust me, they don’t care.</p>
<p>Pope will probably respond to this with some biting, opinionated, and probably offensive critique. I’m moving on to more interesting things. Pope you have very little credibility with me - go sit down.</p>
<p>Oh yeah… best of luck to your son at UMN. I’m certain he will do very well there.</p>
<p>ONE thread and class starts in 4 weeks. YAWN!</p>
<p>It depends what YOU want. If you want to go to school in Milwaukee, Marquette is the best hands down. UW vs Marquette: whichever you like better. As far a rankings go, Marquette’s finance program is ranked higher than UW’s, so that’s all I care about.</p>