math and science

Colleges and Universities A-Z California Institute of Technology
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<p>well most of the people i know think their problem sets are quite enough. once you go to caltech there’s so much work it can be overwhelming. i mean, you could do extra problems, but a lot of people are just struggling to survive (or trying to get ahead on next week’s homework). i guess you know more nerds than me.</p>

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research doesn’t really count as a hobby. so many people do it here that you’re kind of pressured into doing it too. besides, it’s $6000 for a summer and you might get papers/letters of rec from it, so it’s hard to find a better job than lab. it’s definitely fun for most people…but i wouldn’t say people do it purely for fun. caltech has a lot of positive peer pressure. :)</p>

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<p>yea that’s a key point there</p>

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<p>Research most definitely counts as a hobby (I’m talking more about research done during the year than SURF). If you’re choosing to spend your time outside of class doing research, and it’s not solely because you need the money or you’re trying to get to grad school (which doesn’t make sense, why force yourself to do something you don’t like to get to a place where you’re just going to do more of it?), then it is a hobby.</p>

<p>I don’t need the money from research, I could work other jobs and it doesn’t pay that well anyway (except during the summer, which is again not my focus). I do it because I love it. And so do a lot of other people I know. Therefore, at the very least it’s a hobby for me and many other people I know.</p>

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<p>well ok i guess :D</p>

<p>you are one of the only people i know who does research during the year.</p>

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<p>I know plenty. If I had to guess, I’d say probably 25% of Juniors and Seniors do research during the year.</p>

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<p>i know like maybe 3</p>

<p>including you</p>

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<p>The people who do research during the year seem to tend toward being biology and chemistry majors. It’s a bit harder to manage the time as an engineering major.</p>

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<p>Well first off, even if this is true, think about it – your everyday studious high school student probably has seen some physics, chemistry, and biology in high school. Would it not be foolish to go to a school where there’s so much math/science stuffed down your throat that you’re struggling to survive, if you didn’t naturally want tons more math/science involvement in high school? I.e. if you didn’t do math/science for fun back then, good luck motivating yourself later…</p>

<p>I can totally imagine Caltech students not doing very much outside of their schoolwork, and “just” getting their degrees, taking interesting classes, doing some summer research, and all that. But we put quotes around the “just” here, because all that amounts to a lot, and it’s not for everyone. My dad has a colleague who went to Caltech and studied computer science. He often said that he sort of just went there because it’s prestigious, and he always was quite sharp at math and science, but ultimately he didn’t have a great experience. First, he felt like he couldn’t meet enough girls during college, and felt that made things feel less healthy to him. Second, he really just wanted to get out of college and get a job, albeit a nice one that challenged him, but a practical one. I don’t think he exactly wanted to go through the core curriculum of Caltech, and I don’t think he wanted his classes run with anything but a practical approach leading to success in industry. </p>

<p>Even to someone who loves, say engineering or CS, thus, Caltech may not be the proper fit. The man I describe above is an extremely sharp, intellectually competent individual who definitely likes computer science. And yet Caltech wasn’t the place for him. To the point where this guy tries to tell people not to go to Caltech, even though he professes deep respect for his colleageus who went there.</p>

<p>I think one needs to have (1) some commitment to mathematical/scientific/engineering breadth to the point of actually wanting to go through the core curriculum, (2) at least some liking for theoretical things, (3) some less than normal genes, meaning as Lizzard says, preferring math/sci to many other more normal extracurricular activities, (4) a liking for a small school atmosphere, and last, (5) a very specific kind of positive attitude towards life and learning, because studying what you love, as I’ve posted many places, is a stressful thing anywhere; being around people who love things similar to what you do doesn’t help you just “forget about work” – sure, all Tech students probably want to “chill out” at some point, but the positive peer pressure certainly would make one think about work more often, and that can be highly psychologically damaging and painful to some very bright, math/science-obsessed individuals.</p>

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<p>a lot of people do it for the prestige or because they’re pressured to go to smart people schools etc.</p>

<p>if i didn’t like caltech it would take an immense amount of bravery on my part to turn it down for someplace less intense</p>

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<p>I can imagine this fully, as you can see in my story about one Caltech alumnus, though I do have to say that it’s unusual, because there are tons of great schools for math and science that could be better fits for people like this (and, mind you, with just as prestigious departments). One could try MIT, Stanford, for engineering and math UMichigan, for pure sciences certain Ivies, for pure math UChicago certainly…</p>

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<p>I think there’s a little more pressure when you get a full-ride scholarship to a top prestigious school and you want to go somewhere that maybe doesn’t have a full ride…</p>

<p>But yes, there is a problem with people coming here for prestige, but it’s a combination of prestige and lack of knowledge about Caltech. Few parents would want their kids to be at a school like Caltech unless they really enjoyed it (especially for 45k a year!). By educating potential students about what Caltech is like, we increase the chances that those who end up coming here will enjoy it more. This is a good thing for us and for them. This is why it is important that you present the whole picture.</p>

<p>As for you only knowing three individuals doing research, that simply highlights your lack of knowledge. I can name five people in my year, in my major (which is Electrical Engineering) that did research during the year, last year. Given that there are only probably fifteen others in my year and major, this is approximately 25%. </p>

<p>Yes, people tend to do research more in bio or chem I think–it’s not just a difficulty question but also people in these fields are more likely to want to go to grad school / do research later on. A lot of engineers want to go into industry.</p>

<p>Edit: Mathboy, great description!</p>

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<p>when i read the OP’s post and the responses about having to really love math and science, it made me think about whether there are different ways people would define doing something for fun. maybe the OP doesn’t like to do workbook problems or contests, but could still be very curious about scientific topics (It sounds like not, but hey)</p>

<p>whee the following is really long >.<
i am not even going to Caltech, so take it with a grain of salt, but since i already wrote it, i thought i would post it. no one has to read it if he or she doesn’t want to! (:<</p>

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<p>hmm
by doing math & science for fun, does it have to mean math problems that are really grindy/ difficult theoretical material, or science problems that have difficult computations?</p>

<p>i would consider myself as someone who likes science/math for fun (much more than other people in my school for sure), but it mostly involves “what if’s” and qualitative stuff, or if it’s quantitative, then something that i can easily keep in my head all at once, even if i need a calculator to actually evaluate it</p>

<p>for example, i had a long discussion with my friend who was taking AP Chemistry with me (who happens to be going to Caltech next year :B ) about the ‘theory’ behind our teacher’s method for calculating the concentration of sulfide ion in precipitation of sulfide problems, which was to assume that it all precipitates and then back calculate how much can “redissolve” according to the K_sp, and seeing if that’s really equivalent to what would actually happen</p>

<p>Or, another thing I thought was fun was debating on IM with another friend about whether having iron hydroxide reduced to FeO and Fe3O4 rather than Fe2O3 when burning it in a crucible would make a positive error or negative error in the % iron (the iron in the iron hydroxide came from a fixed mass of powder containing an unknown composition). He said it would make a positive error, because Fe3O4 has a higher molar mass than Fe2O3, but I said it would make a negative error, because you are actually getting more additional mass from the oxygen in the room per atom of iron from the sample if they’re in a ratio of 1 Fe: 1.5 O in Fe2O3 instead of 1 Fe:1 O in FeO, and I am right :P.</p>

<p>But…all of these thinkings were sparked by incidents that occurred in class, not something that I thought about just because…in fact, I only really think about math/science for fun if I can discuss it with someone else, or because I would be excited to tell them about it later & see what they think about it. it’s not like i set aside an hour or two per day to work on math and science thoughts because i like them so much, even though i wouldn’t mind working on math and science homework for that long.</p>

<p>–
and i think research can be a hobby, at least in high school…i spent lots of time after school in the lab & probably annoying my teacher, but it wasn’t for money & it was after i had already submitted my college apps</p>

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<p>yea some of those schools definitely have more prestige
but i know a couple people who went to caltech because they didn’t get into mit
(i’m on the east coast so mit is “big” here)</p>

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<p>Swimmy – by my definition, I would say you’re quite into math and science. One doesn’t have to strap oneself to a chair and force oneself to enjoy math and science for some time…</p>

<p>I’d consider myself quite interested in mathematics, just for example’s sake. And no doubt, in spare time, I often get excited just thinking about the future prospects to learn some interesting, complex stuff. I find the subject very pretty. And I’m not very interested in most other extracurricular involvements – I like good company and good conversation, find philosophy and literature quite entertaining to talk about for some time every so often, but at the end of the day, I can’t sit down and think about those things for large portions of time. I think this is the sort of thing one must have.</p>

<p>Though, I mentioned several other compatability conditions to really like Caltech besides this basic one of “really liking” math/sci/engineering.</p>

<p>And thanks Lizzard! I described based on a few alumni’s accounts, plus what I’ve read online.</p>

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<p>where are you going to college?
if you don’t mind me asking</p>

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<p>Ah, well I attend Berkeley, which works out well to me because I think I’m more of a big school person. To be perfectly honest, that we have a good math program is nice, but I didn’t really think much of these things when applying to schools. I hardly knew UChicago existed, and yet now I know it has a wonderful graduate program in math.</p>

<p>Out of my own curiosity, you’re a math major by any chance? Were you the one applying for transfer to MIT from Caltech?</p>

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<p>yes and yes</p>

<p>i might apply to berkeley though for that reason :slight_smile: and/or uchicago
and it might be nice to try a bigger school environment</p>

<p>so how’s college going :D</p>

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<p>OK perhaps I’ll message you at some point instead of hogging Caltech’s thread :)</p>

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<p>yay !</p>

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<p>I agree that swimmy sounds like a great example of passion in MSE. Keep it up, swimmy!</p>