<p>{{my D <em>is</em> majoring in Math,}}</p>
<p>That's why I couched my response with "I believe" I wasn't sure.</p>
<p>She's double majoring?</p>
<p>"They certainly do. My daughter was exempt from taking calc which is required for pre med because of her IB calc courses and test."</p>
<p>They will not exempt you from lab courses. (My d. actually already had a year of pre-med chemistry, an AP score, and a high SAT II and was invited into the "enhanced" section - but she's not a premed!)</p>
<p>"Thats interesting. I know of numerous students who scored in the 750 range, my daughter, bjm8s and TDs I believe, who have no intention of majoring in math or engineering."</p>
<p>You missed it. First of all - it was SAT IIs, not SATs. Secondly, their studies showed that those who TAKE SAT IIs in those subjects are more likely to major in engineering (regardless of their scores).</p>
<p>"Mini, no offense, but I was informed personally by an admission officer administrators talk out of both sides of their mouth, On the one hand they claim SATs mean little but on the other theyre very cognizant the SAT averages play a role in the ranking and can only be ignored at the colleges peril."</p>
<p>If you've read the Pres.' introduction to the college's strategic planning exercise, as well as what she has said at the alumnae forum, you'll see that you posed the questions differently. The class of 2008 anomaly (overaccepted and overenrolled), which was indeed figured by th USNWR, was followed by the largest drop in acceptance rate among major LACs, Ivies, or major universities in the country (a combination of many more applications, and a few less applications.) The bigger issue they face, according to the Pres, is whether they want to keep the size of the first-year class the same, or reduce it, and increase the number of accepted transfers and ADAs.</p>
<p>Your argument about what they will do 6 years from now is an interesting one, and a fair one, but not dissimilar to what happened in the late 80s and early 90s - it's not like it is a new issue. They know they can raise the average SATs now, simply by capping the percentage of low-income students (as they already do at Williams.)</p>
<p>The admissions office is cognizant. They also have a directive from the President's Office in their hands.</p>
<p>There are other games that can be played in "enrollment management", if USNWR is the target. One common one is, given expected yield rates, to admit fewer applicants than would be needed to fill the class. Then, with a lower publishable acceptance rate locked in, make a regular practice of accepting 5-15% of the class off the waiting list. And, if you've already snagged the needed trombone player or football quarterback, you can (if you wish) rank waiting list candidates by SAT scores. This is a two-fer - lower acceptance rate, higher SAT averages. There are top 10 schools that play this one all the time. </p>
<p>Check out waiting list acceptances from 2004:
And according to the WSJ:</p>
<p>(Some are expected numbers)
94 waitlist acceptances at Cornell
78 Princeton
55-65 Harvard
40 Swarthmore
70 Brown
80 Johns Hopkins
45-50 Williams
80 Chicago</p>
<p>You know how many there were at Smith that year. That was the year, of course, that the acceptance rate went up. The numbers behind the numbers make for very interesting reading.</p>
<p>Another favorite, which doesn't raise SAT scores, but lowers acceptance rates and increases yield, is to accept more ED candidates.</p>
<p>
[quote]
She's double majoring?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yep. Math & Government. Playing horn, taking ballet & participating in a senior's choregraphy project. Performing arts may be the weakest leg of her tripod but she's a legitimate "triple threat," which, together with $2.00, gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.</p>
<p>{{They will not exempt you from lab courses.}}</p>
<p>No, you cant be exempt. You said premed courses without specifying any one in particular. Next time say <em>the lab courses</em> :)</p>
<p>{{Secondly, their studies showed that those who TAKE SAT IIs in those subjects are more likely to major in engineering }}</p>
<p>Which subjects? You didnt specify any subject. Now Im interested because when admissions noticed my daughters math scores they attempted to get her interested in engineering. What other SAT subject tests are you referring to? What happened to math as a major? Btw- my daughter scored high on her SAT subject math 2c but still isnt majoring in math. No point. One kid doesnt make a trend --lol</p>
<p>{{{The class of 2008 anomaly (overaccepted and overenrolled), which was indeed figured by th USNWR, was followed by the largest drop in acceptance rate among major LACs,}}}</p>
<p>08 wasnt an anomaly-- 09 was. The acceptance rate for 08 was 57 %, only slightly above the norm. Xiggi strained me out on this mistake, remember? ----09, the largest drop of 10 % to 47 % was the anomaly. It will be interesting to see the acceptance rate is this yr. If they can hold at 47 % that would be great</p>
<p>I know you see that as a good thing, but I don't particularly. The question is whether they get the right students to enroll, not more to apply. </p>
<p>But if you look back at the waiting list numbers from 2004 and add them back into the Williams or Swarthmore acceptances, etc., all of a sudden they look an awful lot less "selective". But I don't believe that in the least - having been one myself, I have no reason to believe that the students they took off the waiting list were any less capable than those they accepted otherwise. What one can say with certainly, however, is that those accepted are seen by the admissions office as serving the institution's mandates which (to use the Williams and Swarthmore examples) obviously can vary quite widely (not an awful lot of football players accepted to the latter.)</p>
<p>{{Another favorite, which doesn't raise SAT scores, but lowers acceptance rates and increases yield, is to accept more ED candidates.}}</p>
<p>That's what Smith does now with two EDs
That has always been controversial. Xiggi threw the ED numbers for Smith in my face a week ago or so. Tufts has two EDs also as well as many other colleges.</p>
<p>{{I know you see that as a good thing, but I don't particularly. The question is whether they get the right students to enroll, not more to apply.}}</p>
<p>Were more on the same page than you think. More apply b/c Smith is of the caliber the top students require, which translates to more students of the kind you and I desire will matriculate. If Smith doesnt remain a desirable college for the top students, rich or poor, it will become a Wells. Yes, I want the acceptance rate to go down, apps up, for appearance and ranking purposes. I never said I wasnt superficial and shallow.</p>
<p>Careful with one-year statistical anomolies. The year before Swarthmore enrolled 40 off the wait list, they enrolled 21. The year after, 18. BTW, those acceptances are included in the acceptance rate (although they are still favorable statistically because smart adcoms only make an official offer of enrollment to a waitlistee who has already agreed to attend).</p>
<p>Every college should play the SAT optional game like Middlebury does. Collect SAT scores from virtually all of their students, but only count the top ones "considered for admissions" in the USNEWs report. It makes a 50+ point difference!</p>
<p>{{Xiggi strained }}}</p>
<p>New game!! When I'm trying to type, spell, etc and continually make spelling or sentence structure errors b/c Im talking to the wife and kid etc., at the same time, Ill donate 5.00 to Smith for every mistake I get called on. All my errors are getting embarrassing</p>
<p>{{but only count the top ones "considered for admissions" in the USNEWs report. It makes a 50+ point difference!}}</p>
<p>With the app online free, plus the fact it's the common app, and with the SAT now optional; I bet it makes a lot more than a 50+ point difference.
I'm familiar with how Midd thinks. They're chasing Bowdoin and Amherst.</p>
<p>The real SATs medians for Middlebury's enrolled class is: 1230 to 1400.</p>
<p>The fake number they report to USNEWS is: 1380 to 1500.</p>
<p>So, you are right, it does make a 100+ point difference to lie on the Common Data Set filing. (Does this mean I own $5 to Smith?)</p>
<p>Actually, in my daughter's case, the deception kept her from considering Middlebury. My impression dating back decades was that Middlebury was a step down in selectivity from Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore. So, that might have been interesting to my daughter, who tried to build her list mostly from matches. But, when I looked up numbers in USNEWS and saw that the fake numbers were comparable to Williams, there was no point in considering Middlebury. The last thing she wanted to do was add more reaches. Based on their real numbers, Middlebury would have been a nice solid match, but we had no way of knowing based on the USNEWS data.</p>
<p>Naa, Just my mistakes. You're exempt</p>
<p>{{My impression dating back decades was that Middlebury was a step down in selectivity from Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore}}</p>
<p>It was and still is. I know how Midd thinks. They're chasing Amherst, Bowdoin etc. Midd has an identify crises. No one has heard of the college. It's in the middle of nowhere, sort of. I loved the town when I was there even though it's small.
The reason the enrolled scores are so much lower is becaue Midd has a number of students, who, as I mentioned, were rejected at other colleges. Midd is not the a 1st choice for many students except the ED kids and for those it's a reach.
My daughters friend had a 1440 SAT and that was extrememly high for Midd this yr but mid-range for Amherst and Williams. He didn't have any special ECs and I'm sure he was accepted b/c they wanted his SAT score included in thier enrolled stats. Don't get me wrong, he's a very bright kid and would have done well anywhere he went.</p>
<p>Many Midd kids were rejected from Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin Darmouth, et al colleges. A friend of my daughter's ended up there b'c he was rejected at Amherst and Williams. I told him he'd love all the outdoor activities--skiing, sailing etc, so he chose it over Bowdoin. Midd is a great college. The new science center is incredible. TD dislikes like Midd b/c the Black student poulation isn't as high as he would like, but there are very good reasons for that.
Another thread. :)</p>
<p>Where did your daughter apply?</p>
<p>RLT, correction, I don't dislike Midd because of its low count of black students. At least not per se. It's just that I like a little more cosmopolitan environment overall and Midd seems pretty white preppy. Personally, I would never consider, nor recommend for my D, either Midd or Williams...to middle of nowhere. NoHo was about as remote as she'd go.</p>
<p>D spent some time with the Smith orchestra at Wellesley Friday. She said it was a bit like looking at an alternate world where she could have gone to school. Some of her original impressions were strengthened. But one new thing she noticed is that despite being closer to Boston, the college itself has a more rural feel.</p>
<p>Her two reaches were Swarthmore ED (where I correctly surmised she had a good shot due to high class rank, a tightly focused application with a particularly good EC fit, and a serious admissions effort including two campus visits, meeting professors, etc.) and Williams (where she had a double legacy).</p>
<p>We were actively hunting match schools, because I don't see much point in just throwing darts at reaches without a specific, identifiable reason for an admission above and beyond stats. We would have recommended she consider Middlebury. But, silly me, I took the USNEWS numbers at face value. I figured that, if it were virtually as selective as Williams and Swarthmore, there would be little point in adding it to her list. </p>
<p>The bulk of her matches (e.g. Emory, Davidson, Vasser, etc.) were all in same range as Middlebury's real SAT numbers. However, we didn't have Middlebury's real numbers to consider in the initial stages of assembling a list because their USNEWS numbers are misleading.</p>
<p>{{The real SATs medians for Middlebury's enrolled class is: 1230 to 1400.}</p>
<p>Something didnt seem right.
Your numbers arent for the enrolled class but for <em>ALL</em> the SATs submitted.
Go to the webpage and youll see they printed all in bold letters to avoid any confusion.</p>
<p>Note: Mid-50% Range: Half the class scored in this range; 25% scored higher, 25% scored lower. SAT 1's were not required for the Class of 2009 and ranges include all submitted tests, even if a different test type was used for evaluation e.g SAT II's, AP's, IB's or ACT
<a href="http://www.middlebury.edu/admissions/applying/classprofile/%5B/url%5D">http://www.middlebury.edu/admissions/applying/classprofile/</a></p>
<p>{{{but only count the top ones "considered for admissions" in the USNEWs report}}</p>
<p>Where did you get that info?</p>
<p>According to the admission officer I talked to the numbers in USNews are for matriculated students. He could be wrong if you discovered theyre doing as you say.</p>
<p>{{It's just that I like a little more cosmopolitan}}</p>
<p>Im going for a visit and I have a suspicion Ill feel the same way after a day or two</p>
<p>{{Midd seems pretty white preppy.}}</p>
<p>In all honesty, your assessment is fairly accurate. Midd /is trying/ to recruit minorities, but its difficult to get kids used to city (cosmopolitan) life to come to rural--and very remote, in their view-- VT to live during the coldest months of the year.
Hell, no adult wants to live in VT. Theyll visit for a few days at a B&B, to ski or go leaf-peeping- but live? No way. There are more residents in a small California town than there are in the entire state of VT. What does that tell ya? :)</p>
<p>{{The real SATs medians for Middlebury's enrolled class is: 1230 to 1400.
{{{Your numbers arent for the enrolled class but for <em>ALL</em> the SATs submitted.}}</p>
<p>It just occurred to me why they did so. If Midd published the matriculated students high SAT numbers on its webpage they would dissuade, as in your daughters case, many students from applying. A decline in apps would affect the admission percentage and yield. Midd is playing a nasty game; high stats for the rankings; low stats, albeit legitimate, on the webpage to encourage as many students as possible to apply.</p>
<p>I will say, however, /some/students are accepted with low SATs and Id hate to see a kid who might have been admitted never get the chance because he was scared away b/c of the high SAT numbers of matriculated students, especially considering SATs are optional and many students may not realize the SATs for enrolled students are artificially high.. e.g Bates.</p>
<p>For a small California town, I recommend Cambria, on the Central Coast, about 40 minutes north of San Luis Obispo. Data dump upon request. Population about 4,000.</p>
<p>Road:</p>
<p>I interpret the numbers on Midd's website to be for their enrolled class of 2009. That page is clearly labeled as the class profile for the group of students who enrolled in the fall of 2005.</p>
<p>Here's what they mean when they say the numbers include "all" of the SATs. Middlebury has a policy where each student can designate which test scores to use for admissions consideration: The SATs, the ACT, or a group of SATIIs.</p>
<p>Based on their USNEWS numbers, only 50% of the class chooses to have the SATIs considered (compared to 99% at Swarthmore and similarly high numbers at most NE LACs).</p>
<p>But, of course, Middlebury does actually receive the SAT scores as part of the SATII score reports, even for those students who don't designate the SATIs as their test of record.</p>