<p>
[quote]
If you go to a top program, ur going to come out making 100kplus, which almost guarantees paying off loans in 1 or 2 years.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not quite. One has to pay taxes and living expenses too. :)</p>
<p>Well if you come out of a top school, without paying a dime until after, youll likely come out making 150k a year and possibly more.
In 2 years, as a bachelor, thats 300k, then tax it, then yeah u dont have a ton, but u could pretty much have it about all payed off if ur living in an apartment alone.</p>
<p>So i guess 3 years sounds more realistic...but three years, come on.</p>
<p>Networking networking networking networking ( cue Steve ballmer)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Exactly. All an MBA from HBU shows me is that you can't make basic financial decisions (i.e. "I shouldn't flush two years of my life down the toilet").
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Whatever.</p>
<p>It shows me that they are trying to do the best with what they have.</p>
<p>If a job requires an MBA or some business sense and candidate#1 (BA from some random school applied) I wouldn't bother reading anymore, especailly if all the other options had MBAs.</p>
<p>All the MBA, I suspect, is that it adds biz cred, as taxguy pointed out.</p>
<p>I wouldn't down the OP for getting an MBA from HBU instead of Harvard. Everyone can't get into Harvard's MBA program. And those that can can't always afford it. We don't all have rich or upper-middle class parents. $70,000 might not be a lot for you guys, but it is for some people. Contrary to popular belief on Collegeconfidential.com, you can live comfortably on a five figure income.</p>
<p>I think it's silly to pay for an MBA, regardless of what name is stamped on it. Not only do they spoil faster than milk left in the open, but they're usually ridiculously expensive. Or just a waste of time. You'd be better off using that time and money starting your own business, or building a stock portfolio than wasting time and money on an MBA, be it from Podunk State U, or Harvard. </p>
<p>But I feel the same way about graduate school for the humanities and some sciences -- complete waste of time and money unless you like academia and nothing else. The only post-graduate education worth anything is information-science, engineering, education, law, and medicine.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Everyone can't get into Harvard's MBA program.
[/quote]
Some would argue that is the primary value of an HBS or Wharton MBA -- that not everyone can get in. The fact that an individual has graduated from a like institution signals to recruiters that he/she has made it through a rigorous screening process.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The only post-graduate education worth anything is information-science, engineering, education, law, and medicine.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Interesting. I can see medicine, law, and perhaps education as those industries generally will require an advanced degree and licensing as sort of a gatekeeper but information-science and engineering? Please elaborate.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think it's silly to pay for an MBA, regardless of what name is stamped on it. Not only do they spoil faster than milk left in the open, but they're usually ridiculously expensive. Or just a waste of time. You'd be better off using that time and money starting your own business, or building a stock portfolio than wasting time and money on an MBA, be it from Podunk State U, or Harvard.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I disagree. The networks you can make at a top school can last you a lifetime. Rightly or wrongly, it's a fact that doors do occasionally open because of who you know or who/what you're affiliated with.</p>
<p>"I think it's silly to pay for an MBA, regardless of what name is stamped on it. Not only do they spoil faster than milk left in the open, but they're usually ridiculously expensive. Or just a waste of time. You'd be better off using that time and money starting your own business, or building a stock portfolio than wasting time and money on an MBA, be it from Podunk State U, or Harvard.</p>
<p>But I feel the same way about graduate school for the humanities and some sciences -- complete waste of time and money unless you like academia and nothing else. The only post-graduate education worth anything is information-science, engineering, education, law, and medicine."</p>
<p>AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA</p>
<p>
[quote]
I can see medicine, law, and perhaps education as those industries generally will require an advanced degree and licensing as sort of a gatekeeper but information-science and engineering? Please elaborate.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Engineers are liable to hit an income and advancement ceiling early on in their careers. If they want better money they have to get a higher degree. Thus some engineers get a higher degree so that they can get a cushy, "engineering manager" gig and make six figures.</p>
<p>You can't be a librarian (information-scientist) without a masters degree. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I disagree. The networks you can make at a top school can last you a lifetime. Rightly or wrongly, it's a fact that doors do occasionally open because of who you know or who/what you're affiliated with.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why would anyone want an old MBA? If a MBA can't get a job within a certain window of time (three or four years) loses his first job within a decade, he is has wasted money. That degree's value depreciates every day they're not employed at a respectable firm. Worse, his professional record is tarnished forever: The MBA obviously failed on a professional level which is why he's not employed. I imagine most employers would prefer to hire a fresh MBA without a bad record.</p>
<p>I certainly hope BIGTWIX is laughing because he realizes how much smarter it is to simply invest in oneself than waste money on a "prestigious" MBA.</p>
<p>But to each his own. I'd rather be the boss, than the employee.</p>
<p>"But to each his own. I'd rather be the boss, than the employee."</p>
<p>Yet, every example you made involved someone that was working for someone else. An MBA prepares people to work for themselves as good as any degree.</p>
<p>Quote from: VectorWega
[quote]
Yet, every example you made involved someone that was working for someone else. An MBA prepares people to work for themselves as good as any degree.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>"Every example I made" (in my last post) involved a profession that required an higher degree for advancement. They were fields that had very visible, very real ceilings. As an engineer, you just won't advance without a higher degree. That's not the case for an economics major from UChicago, or even Macalester.</p>
<p>Quote from: Alchemy
[quote]
You'd be better off using that time and money starting your own business, or building a stock portfolio than wasting time and money on an MBA, be it from Podunk State U, or Harvard.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That definitely involves working for someone.</p>
<p>Again: If you want pay for a piece of paper to work for someone else by all means do. There's nothing wrong with a safe high-paying job. Everyone's not cut out to take big risks. I would prefer to invest in myself and be the boss.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Engineers are liable to hit an income and advancement ceiling early on in their careers. If they want better money they have to get a higher degree. Thus some engineers get a higher degree so that they can get a cushy, "engineering manager" gig and make six figures.
[/quote]
Not entirely. Engineers who want to be project managers will most likely be directed to an MBA rather than an MS in engineering since at that point, they'll most likely already have all technical knowledge they'll need. Engineers with graduate degrees in engineering will go on to be senior engineers, principal engineers, etc. MBAs also add value for engineers who hate their jobs and want to switch careers to, say, investment banking or consulting. A top MBA is the fastest (and most credible) way to do it. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Why would anyone want an old MBA? If a MBA can't get a job within a certain window of time (three or four years) loses his first job within a decade, he is has wasted money. That degree's value depreciates every day they're not employed at a respectable firm. Worse, his professional record is tarnished forever: The MBA obviously failed on a professional level which is why he's not employed. I imagine most employers would prefer to hire a fresh MBA without a bad record.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It looks like you're citing one worst-case-possible scenario as opposed to real world professional experience to support your position on why MBAs are useless. It's good to be bold and have opinions but somewhat hard to speak with any credibility when you're really only a high schooler just beginning to visit college campuses.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Everyone's not cut out to take big risks. I would prefer to invest in myself and be the boss.
[/quote]
Again -- bold, heady talk. I'm surprised that you don't consider an MBA an investment in oneself. Many grads do go on to run establish and run their own businesses, using not only the lessons they've learned in marketing, accounting, and finance but also leveraging the connections/networking they've created while in school.</p>
<p>Engineers who want to be project managers will probably have their employers help them pay for their MBAs -- that's not a waste. </p>
<p>If you want to go into investment banking or consulting, by all means get an MBA. Just hope that you actually get the job. Or even get into the program. Last time I checked, engineering and most sciences were not conducive to a competitive GPA for top business schools.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It looks like you're citing one worst-case-possible scenario as opposed to real world professional experience to support your position on why MBAs are useless. It's good to be bold and have opinions but somewhat hard to speak with any credibility when you're really only a high schooler just beginning to visit college campuses.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>First, I'm not a high schooler. I'm an economics undergraduate at Macalester College. Second, worst-case scenarios are reality for a lot of people. MBAs are one-time ticket into a high-paying job. If for any reason, you find yourself working in anything less than a top firm a decade out of school your degree loses a lot of its value. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm surprised that you don't consider an MBA an investment in oneself. Many grads do go on to run establish and run their own businesses, using not only the lessons they've learned in marketing, accounting, and finance but also leveraging the connections/networking they've created while in school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I do consider a MBA [from a top business school] an investment. I just think that starting a small business is a much better investment. No one needs a degree to start a profitable business. Buy some books and put theory into practice -- you'll learn more than you could in any classroom, and it'll probably cost you less. Besides, many of the professors at top business schools don't even have actual experience, just a great understanding of theory and lots of publications. </p>
<p>As for networking and making connections, you can do that for yourself Networking is easy. I'm a teenager and I've already managed to build some nice connections just by being a confident, amiable, capable person.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Everyone can't get into Harvard's MBA program. And those that can can't always afford it. We don't all have rich or upper-middle class parents. $70,000 might not be a lot for you guys, but it is for some people. Contrary to popular belief on Collegeconfidential.com, you can live comfortably on a five figure income
[/quote]
Once you have that acceptance letter from HBS, banks will be falling over themselves to lend you the money, no payments until graduation, to pay for the whole thing. Because they know that as sure as the overpriced chair they're sitting in, you're a lock to pay it back.</p>
<p>The same is not true of undergraduate degrees because of the high variance of incomes and careers that students may choose. But for high-value (business, law, medicine, etc) graduate schools, banks will cream themselves over the thought of lending to you. It's not that hard. Plus there are financial-aid programs, both public and private, to pursue.</p>
<p>It's not the money that's the limiting factor for HBS students (i'm using HBS to represent the class of high-value MBAs). It's the (a) availability and ability to get in, and (b) their own personal ROI calculations. Although frankly, if you can get in, I can't see how the ROI isn't immensely positive unless:</p>
<p>1) You're already self-employed and doing great,
2) You are a successful trader on wall street (as in that NYT article from a few weeks ago)
3) You place many other things over making as much money as possible, and are happy to live on a 5-figure income when a 6-figure income is easily obtainable by attending the school. i.e., you'd rather work for a nonprofit or be a teacher or something. honorable choices, but if you can get into HBS and come out making $100-150k, people's principles tend to dry up real fast.</p>
<p>I'm a little surprised that you, as a teenager, can so boldly claim to see the ROI for a decision to go to a top business school - and find it "silly" that someone would pay for it. Got any stock tips while you're at it?</p>
<p>You're worried about worst case scenarios, and yet you advocate starting a small business? Professional poker is a more stable career.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If you want to go into investment banking or consulting, by all means get an MBA. Just hope that you actually get the job. Or even get into the program. Last time I checked, engineering and most sciences were not conducive to a competitive GPA for top business schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yet somehow a highly disproportionate percentage of the students at the top MBA programs are former engineering students. For example, former engineering students comprise anywhere from 25-40% of the entering classes at the top MBA programs. How did so many of them manage to make it in? </p>
<p>
[quote]
As an engineer, you just won't advance without a higher degree. That's not the case for an economics major from UChicago, or even Macalester.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sorry, there are a LOT of econ majors who end up in low-end jobs. </p>
<p>What you seem to be talking about are econ students who end up in high finance, or to some extent, consulting. Yet the fact of the matter is that most econ students won't end up working in those fields. Let's keep in mind that most econ students study at average schools. They're not going to Goldman or McKinsey.</p>
<p>"Got any stock tips while you're at it?"</p>
<p>Plenty. PM me.</p>
<p>I already have a good idea of how to get an investment banking job straight out of college if I ever felt the urge to get into the business. But I'd rather be an entrepreneur. Am I crazy for that? </p>
<p>
[quote]
You're worried about worst case scenarios, and yet you advocate starting a small business? Professional poker is a more stable career.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I advocate small businesses and investing. Do one or do both.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yet somehow a highly disproportionate percentage of the students at the top MBA programs are former engineering students. For example, former engineering students comprise anywhere from 25-40% of the entering classes at the top MBA programs. How did so many of them manage to make it in?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think a highly disproportionate percentage of engineers have their employers pay for their MBAs too. How many of those engineers are switching into consulting? </p>
<p>
[quote]
Sorry, there are a LOT of econ majors who end up in low-end jobs.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>There are a lot of every major in low-end jobs.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think a highly disproportionate percentage of engineers have their employers pay for their MBAs too. How many of those engineers are switching into consulting?
[/quote]
Probably very little - because the majority of the companies that hire these engineers will only sponsor them for PART-TIME programs... which are very rarely recruiting grounds for top consulting firms. Besides, sponsorship is contingent on not only the engineers continuing to work for them full time but can also lock them into an extra several years of employment with the company.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I just think that starting a small business is a much better investment. No one needs a degree to start a profitable business. Buy some books and put theory into practice -- you'll learn more than you could in any classroom, and it'll probably cost you less.
[/quote]
How much exactly do you think it costs to start a small business? And please don't launch into stories about people like Kevin Plank who started his successful Under Armour business from a couple thousand dollars -- those instances are the rare exceptions to the rule. The start-up capital to incubate a business can be quite substantial. A Small Business Administration (SBA) study showed the following failure rates for entrepreneurs:
23.7% within 2 years of start-up
51.7% after 4 years
62.7% after 6 years
80% after 10 years
About how much capital do you think you'll be burning through each year to run your business? How about to run your business for 10 years before it actually (or finally) fails? And keep in mind, these statistics include not only the dreamy-eyed college drop-out/fresh grad who thinks he has the next big thing (don't they all?!) but also the seasoned/experienced businessman who can't stand working for "the man" anymore.</p>
<p>Seems to me, from a pure monetary perspective, $120k from a top-tier b-school (or ~$220k if you count opportunity cost) is peanuts compared to the amount you'll spend (read: lose) starting a business that is statistically destined to fail. And by the way, a couple hundred thousand dollars is usually a fraction of the amount start-ups will raise in their first round of funding. Many entrepreneurs will go through subsequent rounds of funding to get more money from investors that they'll likely **** away.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Besides, many of the professors at top business schools don't even have actual experience, just a great understanding of theory and lots of publications. </p>
<p>As for networking and making connections, you can do that for yourself Networking is easy. I'm a teenager and I've already managed to build some nice connections just by being a confident, amiable, capable person.
[/quote]
I'm not sure which top business schools you've attended but I can assure that many professors at the top b-schools have plenty of corporate experience. Many have come from industry; others consult on the side for
F500 companies.<br>
And I'm sure you've built some nice connections -- you certainly do come across as confident. But think about it. Top b-schools regularly have c-level executives of leading companies come to speak, partly because they themselves are alums, partly because that is a pull of an elite school. Your classmates are oftentimes very accomplished, coming from the Goldmans, Googles, Microsofts, and McKinseys of the world -- and they're headed even higher. I don't care how affable or capable one is or how many friends you've got on Facebook... to be able to replicate the same amount of networking opportunities on one's own is highly unlikely.</p>
<p>"I certainly hope BIGTWIX is laughing because he realizes how much smarter it is to simply invest in oneself than waste money on a "prestigious" MBA."
Nope, just at ur stupidity. BAHAHAHAHAHAHA</p>
<p>Right, I'm the stupid one because I don't aspire to work for someone like you. Yep, I'm definitely stupid. Have fun getting your MBA at a prestigious college, assuming you'll even have the credentials to get in (unlikely).</p>
<p>Alchemy, do you have a frickin' point?</p>