<p>I've applied ED to the CALS for biology. I have heard that bio at Cornell is tough. I want to go to med or vet school after my bachelor's. Will they take into account the fact that I went to Cornell, where the grading is tougher? What if my GPA is lower than if I went to another school? I don't want to get rejected because of a lower GPA at Cornell.....</p>
<p>Cornell is not actually tougher than any of its peer schools. And if you look at the roster of top 20 med schools, it’s full of students from top 20 colleges. In other words, when you apply to med school, you will be interviewing with students from Berkeley, Yale, Duke, whatever. Does Cornell receive any additional consideration over those schools? Nope. Should it? Nope.</p>
<p>I agree with norcalguy.</p>
<p>Some med schools will sometimes rank different undergrad isntitutions in very broad categories: Lower, Mid, Upper.</p>
<p>Whether that helps you is often a source of debate. But generally speaking, no, adcoms don’t place a huge emphasis whether your specific gpa came from Cornell or UMich or something.</p>
<p>Some people at Cornell fall into the trap that they “blame” Cornell for their lower GPA, thinking anywhere else they’d have a 4.0. That’s just not the case. Going to a good school like Cornell will help you if you work hard, and yes, in all likelihood, you will need to work especially hard to get a high GPA. I do believe Cornell is worth it. I have a good friend who is quite intelligent and had a 4.0 GPA in biology at a “low tier” college and she got rejected from all the med schools she applied to. I don’t think any of the med schools she applied to would be considered “top” med schools. Now, her GPA was high but if I remember correctly her MCAT score was only ~70th percentile. Anyway, keep in mind that med school admissions ARE competitive and there are no guaranteed ways to get in.</p>
<p>Yeah, honestly, you don’t have any advantage having gone to Cornell. When you’re applying to med school as a Cornellian what you gain is “equal footing” with peer schools- HYPSM, UChi are still above us, so I’d say a good roundup of schools would be Northwestern, Duke, Rice, Purdue, Emory, and I’ll throw in UPenn, Brown and Dartmouth as well. You know, those types of schools.</p>
<p>However, being at Cornell can also work against you in a lot of ways. First of all, you’ll still have to keep your GPA at ~3.7+, while going to a school that has brighter students on average than a state school (unless you’re looking at some UCs). Taking into consideration that the mean GPA for a lot of weed out classes is a B- or B, you might fall behind in terms of GPA. You just have to work a bit harder. Always pays off. </p>
<p>Also, having gone to a research university with a pretty good career services staff, you’re basically expected to have done research, hopefully gotten published, shadowed a doctor, and done some kind of volunteering work over your summers. It’s all a part of the package. When you come her, you’re expected to take advantage of the opportunities laid out in front of you. </p>
<p>You might also want to look into things like project teams and study abroad while you’re here. </p>
<p>I’m in my freshman year as an Engineering student, and I’m currently feeling regrets about not working to the best of my ability in my Chem class. Getting a premed GPA is a solid amount of work, but it’s worth the satisfaction in the end.</p>
<p>As a recent Cornell alum and a current med student at a highly ranked medical school, I can tell you that doing well at Cornell is not nearly as difficult as a lot of people will lead you to believe. If you’re smart enough to get into Cornell, then you can do the work required to get A’s in your classes. HopeWishCry makes the point that, at Cornell, you’re competing with brighter students on average than you would be at your state school. This may be true, but you’d be really surprised by how many students in large premed classes just aren’t motivated to actually do well in them. In other words, it doesn’t matter how bright they are if they’re not taking the class too seriously. Luckily for you, that’s the case with a large portion of the other people that will be in your intro science classes (the ones required for med school). What I’m trying to say is that it’s not difficult to do well. Put in the time and effort and you will get good grades, and you will get into medical school.</p>
<p>And by the way, med schools don’t differentiate between undergraduate colleges like CCers do. They certainly recognize difficulty (or lack thereof) of the classes, but they won’t distinguish between a qualified student from Cornell and a qualified student from Harvard. If the Cornell applicant is stronger, or if the Cornell applicant fits their program better, they’ll take him/her over the Harvard applicant in a heartbeat.</p>
<p>Edit: I want to clarify a bit. The premed classes aren’t easy - they’re not supposed to be, and they’re not easy anywhere. These classes will certainly challenge you, but if you put the time and effort in, the curve will work in your favor more often than not (even though you’re “competing” with a generally brighter student body). Although these classes are difficult, the point that I ultimately wanted to make is that getting good grades in them isn’t as hard as a lot of people make it seem.</p>
<p>I don’t think within a given tier med schools differentiate (Cornell, Harvard, etc being top tier), but they definitely distinguish between top, middle, and low tier schools. The top tier literally contains dozens of schools. As far as the top tier, academically Cornell is probably slightly stronger, but not significantly more so than most (not all) of its other peer schools so there is no Cornell advantage per se. If you are trying to differentiate between top tier schools, you should probably focus on non-academic factors or academic interests not related to pre-med.</p>
<p>it doesn’t make sense to say that if you’re smart enough to get into Cornell, you’re smart enough to get A’s in the premed courses. every single person in those courses was smart enough to get into Cornell, but obviously most of them will not get A’s, and it’s definitely not the case that everyone with less than an A is just not trying hard enough. some very bright and capable people who have gone on to excellent jobs or grad school programs struggled back in freshman year.</p>
<p>Fair enough, some people might have trouble adjusting from high school to college level work, but for the most part, everyone is capable of getting A’s. Not everyone will get A’s, but from my experience and the experiences of my friends, those who worked harder got better grades. Getting an A, then, is much more about putting in the effort than it is about intelligence or ability.</p>
<p>I can tell you that I did a lot better in those classes than a lot of people that were smarter than me.</p>
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<p>Your argument doesn’t make much sense. As you argue that getting A’s in pre-med courses are more function of someone’s work ethic rather than intelligence, that would still imply that a given individual in question would find getting A’s much easier at lower ranked universities, since the student body at lower ranked schools aren’t as motivated academically as the ones at Cornell or other top tier colleges, hence benefitting from much more relaxed grading curve.</p>
<p>Whether getting A’s in Cell Bio or Organic Chem is a function of someone’s intelligence or work ethic is irrelevant. What matters is the caliber of overall student body against whom you would compete. (By caliber of student body, we factor in both intelligence and work ethic/motivation)</p>
<p>As we can all agree that where you attend a college has very little impact on med school (or law school) admissions, if a given individual is 100% committed to a career in medicine, it makes more sense to attend a college where his/her chances of attaining the entry into that profession would be maximized. In addition, if a given student is qualified enough to get into Cornell, chances are strong that (s)he would qualify for a large sum of merit scholarship money from lower tier schools.</p>
<p>However, as mentioned, even getting a 4.0 GPA doesn’t guarantee someone an admission to a medical school. You’ve gotta have other pieces together, such as high enough MCAT score, research experience, etc. The nice thing about going to Cornell is that given that a student has performed well enough, even if one strikes out at med school admissions, (s)he would have access to job opportunities that most graduates of lower-tier colleges don’t have access to. (I restrict only high-performing students within this sample) </p>
<p>It’s all about trade-offs, really. Perhaps, the more central point to this question is the fact that the choice of one’s major plays a much more significant role in shaping someone’s overall GPA and coursework rigor, rather than where one attends a college. I know several people who were engineering majors back in college, but still got into medical schools. When I asked why they majored in engineering despite the brutally difficult coursework within engineering majors, one of them replied: “I wanted to keep my options open. Sure, majoring in engineering was tough and my GPA would’ve been higher had I majored in biology and I would’ve had easier time getting into a medical school had I chosen that path. However, I couldn’t imagine myself hitting a job market with a BA in biology, in case I struck out with medical school admissions.” Life is really all about trade-offs, and one can only make an educated bet on what course would result in the most optimal outcome. </p>
<p>After all, someone who is motivated enough and knows how to get the most out of given resources will do fine in the long-run, and where one went to college is just a very small piece of the whole picture.</p>
<p>Actually, I’m not making the argument that it’s easier, or even as easy, to get good grades at Cornell than at a lower ranked school. I’m simply saying that it’s not nearly as difficult to get A’s at Cornell as you would think based on rumors around here about how challenging Cornell is. </p>
<p>I’m also making the point that the higher caliber of students doesn’t make it difficult to get A’s at Cornell since so many of those higher caliber students are surprisingly unmotivated to do well in their premed classes. Therefore, if you’re competing with them on a curve (which you are), it will likely work out in your favor, so long as you’re willing to put more effort in than they are (which, again, is not THAT much effort). You certainly do not have to kill yourself to get A’s at Cornell. You’ll then graduate from what’s perceived to be a more difficult school with good grades. Med schools might not care so much about prestige, but they absolutely consider the difficulty of your undergraduate program. You’ll be better off doing well at a school that’s thought to be more challenging.</p>
<p>By the way, many lower ranked schools have harsher curves than Cornell (a B- median grade in bio and chem, and a B median grade in orgo and physics are not that bad). Even worse than that, some schools don’t curve at all, and many schools don’t offer A+'s at all. There’s no guarantee that you’ll get better grades at a lower ranked school. So even though I wasn’t originally making the argument that it’s easier to get A’s at Cornell than at lower ranked universities, this actually might often be the case.</p>
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<p>I would believe greater % of student body at a lower tier college is unmotivated to perform well compared to % of student body at a top school. Since the grades received in pre-med courses are a function of grading curves, that would imply a given individual, assuming all else equal, would stand higher chance of cracking A’s at Rutgers compared to MIT.</p>
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<p>Agreed. </p>
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<p>If you are talented enough to ace pre-med courses at Cornell and thus end up at a medical school, more power to you. Where this discussion becomes relevant is for those border-line, not particularly strong students, who may not have the highest intelligence + motivation. For such group, they might have increased their chances at higher grades, by attending a less rigorous/ competitive college in the first place.</p>
<p>Correct me if I am wrong. Assuming all else equal, if student X has 3.5 GPA from Cornell, and student Y has 3.7 GPA from Rutgers, which candidate stands higher chance at med school admission? I would believe student Y. If the profiles are completely identical, except for where the students went to college, at that point the ‘rigor’ of your college curriculum may factor into the equation.</p>
<p>You’re assuming that grading is done the same way at Rutgers and MIT. MIT may make the median grade of a given class higher. Cornell’s median grades for premed classes aren’t that low, and many lower ranked schools certainly curve their classes lower. Some schools don’t curve at all. My brother went to a significantly lower ranked university, and his orgo class wasn’t curved. I looked at one of his exams, and it was really difficult. I know that I would have done worse in that course at his school than I did at Cornell.</p>
<p>And regarding your last point - it’s hard to say. It probably depends on the relationship the med school has with Cornell, their past experience with Cornell alumni as students, and their perception of the differences in difficulty between the two schools. Both of those GPAs are reasonable, though. If the Cornell applicant had a 3.3 and the Rutgers applicant a 3.5, my guess would be the Rutgers applicant would get the spot. </p>
<p>As a relevant aside, though, Cornell applicants generally do very well in the medical school admission process.</p>
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<p>Sure, different colleges may enforce differing standards in grading. However, I can’t help but think that, in case a directional State U has lower median grades in Bio courses than MIT, it has more to do with the fact that a significant % of their student body lacks enough intelligence and motivation to do well in the course, rather than that school having a ‘tougher’ grading policy.</p>
<p>I imagine a lot of us have a tough time evaluating the caliber of the overall student body at lower tier state schools, since we haven’t attended such schools. I know many people, from my high school, who went to large flagship state universities. I was really surprised to hear their anecdotes about so many of their classmates, many of whom would skip out >50% of all lectures, struggle with basic grammar, play guitar hero and peer pong all day, and many others who ended up getting kicked out or got student warnings due to extremely poor grades, despite not majoring in ‘hard’ majors such as math or engineering. When I visited my friend at his school, I met his roommate. He told me he was getting C’s in his bio courses. When I asked him if it was really that hard, he said: “No. It’s just that I never had to study anything before coming to college. I never had to open a book before. Now, I can’t start doing all that all of a sudden.”</p>
<p>The point is, the barrier of entry into many of the lower tier state schools are so low, that a significant portion of the student body at such schools significantly lack brain power and the level of motivation, compared to the student body at typical top schools. I really think that the delta in nature of competition for top grades, between Ruters and MIT, is night and day. </p>
<p>In fact, the state flagship school from my home state accepted anyone who had SAT above 1600, regardless of your GPA in high school. If you had a SAT above 2000, the school offered to cover at least 50% of all expenses for four years.</p>
<p>Median grades in the premed classes are artificially set. They take the average in the class and make it a B, for example. So if the median grades at lower ranked schools are lower, it has nothing to do with the quality of students in the class. The professor or the department decided the median grade should be that low. I know lots of Cornellians like to think they have it pretty rough, but the truth is that there is grade inflation at Cornell.</p>
<p>And I think your experiences with state schools are probably atypical. It sounds like your state just has a really crappy education system. I have a lot of motivated and intelligent friends that went to state schools and are doing impressively well for themselves. Moreover, “lower ranked” doesn’t necessarily mean state school. There are thousands of lower ranked private schools out there that likely have higher standards than your state’s public schools.</p>
<p>My friend went to an average quality state school, had a 4.0 in biology (and 4.0 overall). She had research experience as well (more probably than most of my Cornell friends). Her only downside was her MCAT was ~70th percentile (which I think highlights that she wasn’t as good as her GPA said she was). She was applying to low/middle tier med schools and was rejected from all of them…School quality DOES matter. The top tier is more than the “top 10” of USNews though. The top tier is really measured in the dozens, where doing well in any of them is going to be an advantage. People get way too caught up in comparing a top student from a #20 school to a top student from #1 or #2. Yes, being the best at the best school puts you at an advantage over most other people, but that relevance of that advantage is overstated within a tier of schools.</p>
<p>I disagree. My roomate is premed and says cornell has very low acceptance rates, so bad that they have not stopped putting apply/admit data on their web site for the last 2 years. A few friends who are pre-professional have already transferred. That shows a lot about cornell and the problem of trying to go to med school from here. The premed director left last year and no one seems to know why. The application info I have seen from every high ranked grad school, med, law etc all say that they DO NOT!!! look at grades differently for one school v. another. I think that anyone applying to grad school should look at the data. The numbers and percentages are real, what’s posted here is just opinion. Schools like SUNY Binghamton and many small LACs are known to have way higher admissions than cornell to top grad programs and med schools. Advice, do your own research and make your own decision. Look at web sites for all top medical schools and law schools and you will see they usually indicate that the undergrad school makes no difference. Meaning, SUNY or Ithaca College 3.7 will alway be far better that cornell 3.5. Always.
From what I read in the posts here, the problem with getting into grad, med schools, etc is only an issue for one ivy, cornell. What is causing this I don’t know. Just do your own research and good luck.</p>
<p>@mikeyc765: I disagree. Quality of undergraduate school rarely matters regarding medical school admissions. Your friend’s MCAT score caused her to be rejected by many schools.</p>
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<p>No. All curved courses are curved on a bell curve. I agree the distribution of grades is up to the discretion of each instructor.</p>
<p>The point being, if higher % of the student body you’d compete against are low(er) caliber students, the grading curve works to your favor, since the grade you receive is largely based on how well you do relative to others. </p>
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<p>Cornell has the reputation of being a hard school since larger % of its student body are in hard majors, notably engineering, compared to its peer schools.</p>
<p>What you choose to major in has much larger impact on your GPA and coursework rigor, more so than where you attend college.</p>
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<p>I don’t doubt there are many smart, motivated students at public schools. The point I was getting at was due to lower barrier of entry, % of unmotivated students that comprise such schools are much higher compared to top schools.</p>
<p>Frankly, over 4 years of my time at Cornell, I only heard of one or two people who got kicked out due to having terrible grades, and both of them were in hard engineering majors.</p>
<p>At many state schools, a huge chunk of people get asked to leave due to having terrible work ethic/study habits/terrible grades, even if these people don’t major in a hard engineering major.</p>
<p>Lastly, my state flagship school is ranked top 20 public universities in the nation. Even then, the school had close to 70% acceptance rate back when I was in high school.</p>
<p>Courses may be curved on a bell curve, but the grade assigned to the median (a B in most premed classes at Cornell) is still artificially set.</p>
<p>And frankfrankabc, I disagree with all of that. Cornell does a great job getting its alumni into med school. I knew a lot of premeds applying at the same time as I was last year, with GPAs and MCAT scores all over the spectrum, and almost all of them did very well in the process (multiple interviews and acceptances).</p>
<p>Edit: spelling and grammar</p>