<p>Hello! I was accepted to Carleton as a freshman and am strongly considering it. Although perhaps I'm not going to major in philosophy, I do want to take a slew of courses from it. However, recently I talked to a Carleton philosophy major (who has gotten in a decent grad school, and let's just call this person "P"), and I was deeply disturbed by P's words. They may sound outrageous but I wish you don't take any offense as I have absolutely none. And if you're exactly P, then I'm praying that you won't be really offended by my posting this online. Carleton just has been THE dream school for me.</p>
<p>P said Carleton's philosophy dept was "rather weak", and though the profs were really nice, they were "too young", and the overall teaching quality of the most of them was "very ordinary", with certain exception.</p>
<p>P also felt that Carleton's overall atmosphere was rather "mediocre", and "whether the profs or the students", the majority was "flat and unsurprising". </p>
<p>P preferred an "intense environment", in which people attending the same class as P would be competitive (though P was referring to the ability or quality rather than personality or mindset) enough to "make me a better thinker and excite me to keep studying/learning", so P felt in P's grad school P have learned more and way faster than P has got in Carleton. I'm feeling that by this P was implying that Carleton failed to adequately meet these expectation or standards.</p>
<p>So, now, this is seriously worrying me. P's words are just contradictory to all what I've read and heard. Is there anyone willing to give some of your own perspectives/descriptions/experiences? </p>
<p>P.S.: I swear I'm not a troll. I'm an international student so I wasn't able to do a campus visit to check...and if you want to know, I'm going to study physics, and I've been agonizing between Carleton and Swarthmore. I didn't even remotely expected a Swat ad, and Carleton is just so nice and adorable that I feel it extremely hard to decline it. </p>
<p>OP, I’m a Carleton parent, not a student, and know nothing about the philosophy dept. But I did read the other thread. It seems we have someone who loved his experience on that thread and P, who hasn’t, on this thread. </p>
<p>Maybe the issue is less one with Carleton – is it strong in philosophy? – and more one of fit. If P wanted an “intense environment” then he probably shouldn’t have chosen Carleton. I’m not saying P is wrong to want an intense environment, just that Carleton is not an “intense” place and he probably should have picked a different college if that’s what he was seeking. My experience with Carls, including my own, is that they are not so in-your-face. They don’t worry about grades or rankings (see other thread that has since been closed) and aren’t competitive in the classroom so regardless of how strong a particular dept may be, I doubt it would ever be described as “intense.” </p>
<p>If you want an “intense environment” as well, then maybe there’s a better school for you. I don’t know enough about Swat to say that it is significantly more intense so I don’t know that it is or isn’t a better choice for you. Or that you are actually looking for intense. I agree that Carleton is nice and adorable, but don’t mistake its pleasantness for being an academic lightweight. You will get a great education there.</p>
<p>Swat’s nickname of “where fun goes to die” probably gives you a clue but only you can decide. My son was a soccer recruit at Swat and attended their college camp. Multiple current Swat players told him they wish they had gone elsewhere. This was a tiny sample of soccer players but it got his attention. It’s a great school but very different in culture from Carleton. </p>
<p>As the parent of 2 Swarthmore graduates and a current Carl (and I am a Swat alum) I can probably also comment on the personality or atmosphere of the two schools. Swarthmore is academically intense and self consciously so. It is quite common for Swatties to say that classes they take at Penn (or Haverford) are “easy,” and that visiting professors from Ivy-league schools teach at a significantly slower pace than they are used to. Carleton is a very strong school, but has more of a stereotypical Minnesota-nice vibe. I can’t speak to the philosophy departments of the two schools. It is certainly possible to get a fabulous education at either school.</p>
<p>To some degree, I’ll echo what Youdon’tsay said in the sense that the intensity and competition is not on the surface and it is not direct (I do think Carls are competitive and intense though in their own way). Sometimes Carleton profs and students are, in general, not “direct”. This can throw people off, it threw me off at first and I was uncomfortable with it for a while.</p>
<p>With this being said, being exposed to this mentality has helped me. Much of the world, both the business and academic world, requires some level of diplomacy. For example, Carleton is good at producing students who go on to get PhDs. One of the main reasons I see students go for a PhD and fail is that they essentially go speak to their advisor, act like an ass, and talk their way out of the program. Perhaps there is something about the environment at Carleton that teaches students how not to do this while learning to appropriately challenge somebody. </p>
<p>One more thing, if you study Physics, “adorable” won’t be the first word that comes to mind anymore. That specific major is a more intense one than most.</p>
<p>Thanks to all of you above! I’m using a mobile device so I can’t quote each like I’m supposed to, but first I have to post this anyway, to clarify.</p>
<p>I have to correct. P didn’t tell me those in English, and I translated according to P’s words. The words P used that I translated as “competitive” are literally “having the <em>ability/capability/competency</em> for competition”, which are perhaps nearer to “highly qualified”, and don’t mean actually competing or wanting to compete with others like rivals, just being excellent and (somewhat) hard for you to compete with (and/or surpass if you want). P didn’t use “with the mind of competing with others”, which I would dislike. So when P implied as if P’s peers couldn’t make P feel needing to pay effort to match them, I was a bit alarmed, hence this thread.</p>
<p>Also, though I’m not sure if I’m ok with an intense atmosphere, I definitely prefer intense/rigorous <em>academics</em>. I.e. I definitely want to work hard and be challenged. I mean, it’s undergraduate times after all.</p>
<p>And, Jack63, I didn’t quite get what you meant by “sometimes profs and students are, in general, not direct”. Could you perhaps paraphrase or explain it for me?</p>
<p>I’m just guessing here, but perhaps “not direct” means that they won’t just flat out tell you when you have your head up your a$$ . . . but will approach your misconception more diplomatically.</p>
<p>@Custos - I wouldn’t worry in the slightest about a Carleton education not being challenging, especially in physics! Carleton’s physics department is known to be quite strong.</p>
<p>Let me give a more specific example of a professor (Let’s call him Prof. B). I learned a great deal from him. As I reflect back on my experience at Carleton I learned tons from the guy about how to interact with others even though I wasn’t aware I was learning anything at the time. Prof. B had been their for decades, and he is recently retired. I had him for upper and mid-level physics courses. He abhorred grading students, so you’d take your exam and you wouldn’t get a grade or score. You’d get a “O” for outstanding, “S” for satisfactory, or just a bunch of comments. The final grades I got in his classes were fairly awarded…I think I got an A and B+. Still his method of grading drove me nuts, didn’t seem rigorous, and his endless comments about how the focus should be on “learning” seemed excessive at the time.</p>
<p>Looking back at this after finishing a PhD, I see the “method in the madness”. I’ll try to summarize. If you are a PhD student and you write a paper, thesis, etc, you don’t get a grade. Instead you get many comments. Some come off as very critical. Prof. B’s methods taught me to be gracious (this didn’t come naturally to me), and look at the comments as a way to improve, learn, and make your paper better. Going into graduate classes and research with some level of a mindset that the interactions with others are about learning rather than competition makes life a lot easier. It can ease relationships with your advisor and co-researchers. My experience in grad school is that even if you don’t believe your interactions about “learning”, I found that repeating Prof. B’s comments to others can put people at ease or at least throw them off enough so they let you alone.</p>
<p>I also remember working hard in Prof. B’s classes…spending hours in the lab.</p>
<p>Not every Carleton Prof. is like this. I remember getting a grade changed after the term was over because I missed a cutoff by 0.2%, and was able to find the points. </p>
<p>As for this comment</p>
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<p>Yes, Carleton students are smart and capable of performing. One shouldn’t take the indirectness as a weakness. I was reading the post about a parent’s observations from an accepted student weekend. On many levels, I don’t think the parent got it. Carleton isn’t an extended summer/winter camp where they play Frisbee or broom ball. I don’t think the competitive/intense streak or the ability to formulate life goals has been brainwashed out of Carleton students. I think it is just not on the surface.</p>
<p>Students enjoyed debating ideas. Instead of a conversation about football that you might engage in at some schools, Carleton students talk about some crazy ideas they’ve learned in class. Some students are more comfortable with “confronting” thing than others though…from my experience. Others students might want to chime in about their experiences.</p>
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<p>I see what the comment is getting at. Carleton isn’t an “activist” school like Grinnell might be. There also is a wide range of political beliefs in the students…at least when I was there. There are true conservative students at Carleton. Yes, sometimes people might mistake a conservative for somebody who is complacent, when, in truth, they are very different.</p>
<p>For example, I visited Grinnell when looking at schools. I didn’t like the “activist” culture. I thought it was somewhat of a distraction. For many of the activist issues, I simply didn’t agree…I’m not a liberal.</p>
<p>The point is that there are a range of ideas and beliefs and generally people are accepting and willing to both talk about and debate their beliefs.</p>
<p>On my comment about Prof. B and his method for evaluating students. This was truly a unique experience in my entire educational career. Not every Carleton Prof is like that. I’m sharing an example to try to demonstrate quickly what many students and profs view on grading on competition.</p>
<p>My experience is that Carleton pre-med courses will focus on grades and are difficult. This is no different than any other school though. </p>
<p>Prof. B could only have pulled off his teaching methods with classes for majors. I remember grading homework for Prof. B in a pre-med course he was teaching. He would complain about the pre-med students and how they affected the learning process. </p>
<p>I’m not saying he was overly critical or he or any other professor had a bad opinion about students at Carleton. It is just one of many interactions.</p>
<p>I think the concern was that in some of the non-major courses he taught and I graded, some of the students were wasting their time with activities that served no other purpose than to get a higher grade in the class. i.e. turning in a 5 page homework assignment that should be 2 pages for no other purpose than to make sure not a single point could be deducted from the homework assignment. These assignments were a pain to grade, and if a point were unnecessarily deducted, students would complain wasting even more time.</p>
<p>The specific way this prof. graded, a few points a homework assignment just wouldn’t make any difference. The difficulty was that not all profs at Carleton were like this. Like I said, I actually got a grade changed in a course, after it was awarded, by finding 0.2% of the class grade and arguing. It was in a pre-med course…not physics. This wasn’t my best experience at Carleton, but I don’t regret making an issue on the grade.</p>
<p>So I don’t blame Prof. B for being annoyed, I don’t blame the students (you can find 0.2% of a grade in homework). The issue is how do you handle pre-med courses when the students are working like crazy, smart, and competitive. Not all Carleton students who want to go medical school get to go…I mean most do…medical school admission is very difficult though. If Carleton didn’t grade harshly in pre-med courses, Carleton students wouldn’t perform in med school. It is difficult problem to deal with. It will likely be no different elsewhere. </p>
<p>I don’t know how long it’s been since jack63 came to Carleton, but things have changed because I have experienced none of what you have mentioned above in my years here and I’ll try to address these things mentioned above as much as possible.</p>
<p>Current student here. Hi and happy Friday! :)</p>
<p>Regarding sciences: Swarthmore students probably assumed you were coming here for the sciences because Carleton is quite science-heavy, abnormally so for a LAC. It doesn’t mean that humanities departments are weak (in fact, the political science and economics departments are gaining a lot of ground with sophomore major declarations a couple of weeks ago) but that a lot of people just happen to declare majors in the sciences (and the science departments are fantastic of course). Biology is the most popular major on campus and Computer Science is catching up quickly. Other popular majors include Chemistry, Math/Stats, and Physics.</p>
<p>Regarding “complacency”: I think it’s rare to find complacent Carleton students and I would argue that Carleton can have a political atmosphere if you’re looking for it – if not, it’s not in your face and you don’t have to deal with it if you don’t want to. “Minnesota nice,” as I have experienced it at Carleton and in Northfield, basically just means that people are genuinely nice. People will be polite, have manners, and will honestly care about how you are (I’m always taken aback when I come here after a break at home – here, people actually care and yes, the cashier will start a conversation with you if you seem like you don’t mind having a conversation). Minnesota nice does NOT mean that people don’t debate here. In fact, people do. A lot in class and quite a bit outside of class too (though this kind of depends on the friends you have). We debate, but being Minnesota nice means realizing that when we disagree, we disagree with an idea and not with the person.</p>
<p>Regarding social issues: I think people at Carleton talk more about social issues more than they talk about political issues (unless it’s an election year) and the great thing about Carleton is that students actually do things about social issues. We have fundraisers, we participate in protests, and we hold campus-wide events that promote awareness of the social issue at hand. This is reflected in the type of Convocation speakers we bring to campus every year (you can see the archives here: <a href=“https://apps.carleton.edu/events/convocations/audio_video/”>https://apps.carleton.edu/events/convocations/audio_video/</a> ).</p>
<p>hangingtree…not sure I said anything different than you. I think we’re saying the same thing. Did you read what I said? I never said the school was complacent. This wasn’t true when I was there, and I can’t imagine it is true now.</p>
<p>Carleton isn’t as “activist” as grinnell…Is this what you disagree with? If Carleton somehow became as “activist” as Grinnell, that is certainly new, different, and interesting. I’d like to hear more. </p>
<p>If Carleton student’s are hanging out and getting arrested in protests…either left or right, you should tell the world. It can only help. </p>
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<p>I didn’t make the quote above, it wasn’t my experience, and I don’t agree with it. All I was saying was that I know why some students might say it.</p>
<p>Yeah, I disagreed with your point that Carleton students aren’t as “activist” as thought. That protest shows how devoted Carleton students are to causes they believe in. The thing is that they went to the protest knowing they’d be arrested – they didn’t just spontaneously get arrested. There are also more events (no arrests though) that went on this year, such as a club getting a bus so students could go up to the cities and protest for immigration reform.</p>
<p>Again, these are just examples of what Carleton students do. Some students don’t do anything of this sort while other students organize hunger strikes for the typhoon (tbh, I really don’t know what skipping meals had to do with sending aid for Typhoon Haiyan but some people did it anyway). Carleton does have an activist community if you want to be part of it.</p>
<p>Interesting article about activism in the Carletonian. I thought it might as well have described Carleton 10 - 15 years ago as well as it does now.</p>
<p>On the positive side, Carleton students aren’t being admonished by their graduation speaker similar to what happened at Haverford because of activism gone crazy.</p>