<p>I agree @toowonderful. Each family must decide for themselves what makes sense in terms of choice of school, choice of major and how and how much we finance our child’s education. The important thing is our kids are getting a college degree in something they love and are passionate about. Don’t assume they will be jobless upon graduating. For those pursuing performing, I know many when not working who enjoy all sorts of flexible work including teaching at schools, dance studios, yoga studios and the like; teaching voice, acting and piano; working for a non-profit; working in an office: nannying etc… while they pursue their dreams. If they want it, they will find ways to make it work.
Where this will all lead them, who knows? But an acting or MT degree can lead you many places, as can other majors. You and your child may be surprised what they decide to do upon graduating. I know acting majors who are now lawyers. Voice majors who are doctors, dance majors who are physical therapists, economics majors who are now dentists. English majors who are realtors. And people with law degrees who are stay at home moms. Their choice of majors in college has not limited their options later.
The debt you take on is another story. What you can and are willing to do will be different for each family. We don’t know each other’s circumstances in detail. We need to respect each others choices even if different from our own. </p>
<p>Well said @vvnstar :)</p>
<p>Exactly, @vvnstar! My OB/GYM was a vocal music major at Oberlin. LOL! </p>
<p>@Calliene: “I too have become a big fan of state schools, now that I see what a bargain they are. IMHO, going into ANY debt for this degree is crazy. In MANY instances (maybe all, but I haven’t seen every school) the difference between a program in a state school and one in a private school is that in the state schools, the tax-payers help pay the tuition!!”</p>
<p>While you are free to choose a state school, this post is frankly based on mis-information and does serious disservice to students trying to figure out cost.</p>
<p>First of all, I don’t know what your economic situation is, but for most Americans <em>any</em> school would require us to go into debt. It’s really insulting not to mention ignorant of you to call people ‘crazy’ for going into debt. Here in NJ, Rutgers, the state university, costs $25,000/year IN STATE. If you even have one child, for most Americans, it would be impossible to attend without debt. So for you to assert that state universities require no debt is just wrong. Of course, you can luck out and live within commuting distance to a state university, but probably 90% of parents (or more) are not within commuting distance to their state university. Also of course, if your child is living at home, this costs you money as well that must be factored into overall cost (food, car, extra heat/electricity etc).</p>
<p>Secondly, you don’t necessarily need to be a ‘star’ in order to get aid from a private school. Private schools often have more resources to help with need-based aid than public universities. To use my own kids as an example, three of them have gone to a private school that technically costs $55,000-$70,000—but they have paid or are paying much LESS than state universities. My D graduated Williams debt free, whereas had she gone to Rutgers, she would have graduated with debt.</p>
<p>Private schools have more resources to give need based grants and scholarships. You DO NOT have to go to a top tier private. A smart strategy to those students whose stats are not ‘elite’ is to go to a private that is technically ‘lower’ tier than their stats. If you are admitted, they often have the resources to give you need based money, merit aid and grants, in order to attract you. </p>
<p>Of course, state universities are excellent and a great option for many. But to say you can graduate with no debt by going to a state university is just wrong information.</p>
<p>The title of this thread is merit based aid, and I think that, in general, CC probably skews towards higher income people who are not eligible for need-based aid. Affordable to them means merit-based aid. It’s a whole different ballgame from affordable for middle- and lower-income families. </p>
<p>It is true that if you have a very smart kid with high scores – and your income is low, say, less than $100,000 – the very top schools will end up being more affordable because of need-based aid. We know a girl who is paying about $3000 a year to go to Dartmouth, for instance. </p>
<p>However, bear in mind that many of these schools take need into consideration when they make admissions decisions. What I hear is that ordinary need is not very compelling to them. They want kids with real hardship, first in family to go to college, diversity hooks, good stories, etc. So, it might be cheaper, if you could get in, but it’s very hard to get in. </p>
<p>And if you make more than $200,000, you are not going to get need-based aid at these schools, there will not be much merit money (because everyone who gets in is amazing), and you are looking at a quarter million or so for four years. </p>
<p>So it depends on who you are and how much money you make and have. (Income weighs a LOT more heavily than assets in determining need, so it’s good to save money no matter where you fall on the spectrum.) Make sure you understand that when you apply for colleges. </p>
<p>JKellynj17, you raise really good points but I still feel I should clarify. I’ve been helping students (as well as mu own kids) get into colleges for the past 10 years.</p>
<p>I am posting not to provoke any arguments or anything, but because I know that many students and families read these threads even if they don’t post and I would really hate for misinformation to cause them to make uninformed choices. I respectfully disagree that CC is mostly the top 5% of Americans. That may be an impression people have, but as a teacher I personally know of many students who go to CC for information and don’t post, but who most certainly do not come from the top 4% of Americans, which is approximately around what $200,000/year is. There is also a huge difference between top 4% and top 1% in need. I think what you are addressing are people who are top 3-4%, those who don’t qualify for financial aid necessarily but who could really use a break. (That’s just approximate–there are people who may technically be top 2% but have circumstances that make college payments difficult. I’m just using this as a general shorthand.) But people who can afford college but for whom it’s a bit tight is not nearly as large a population as you might think. At any event, whatever the size, that top 3-4% (or whatever) can also get need based money depending on the situation. Or merit. </p>
<p>First, it’s not true that ‘ordinary need’ is not compelling. I’m a single divorced mom of 5 and highly educated, by no means first generation. All my kids got excellent grants. One of my kids is going to a small private on a full tuition-ride. Part of that is merit.</p>
<p>That is my second point. It is not easy to distinguish between pure merit/talent and pure need. Many scholarships and grants are a combination and there is not clear cut line. If you have need, you may be awarded a talent/merit grant. Of course, you also may be awarded talent/merit if you have no need at all. Or if you technically don’t have need but really could use a break, which I think is what most people are talking about here. It depends on the circumstances of the particular college and how much they want you and how they can fund you. Which is why I recommend looking for technically lower tiered privates that may be a match for you; they have a much higher chance of funding you as they may want you more. (This is all probability, never a shoe-in)</p>
<p>Third, there is no line in the sand for income although obviously the more money you make and the fewer financial hardships you have, the less need based money you are going to be offered. Bottom line is: If they think you will come if they offer you more money <em>and</em> if they have the money to give <em>and</em> if they want you badly enough, they will offer you money. They can call it merit or they can call it whatever they want.</p>
<p>This is why you should consider technically lower tiered private schools with larger endowments. If they want you, they can (not definitely) offer you money. </p>
<p>So it not only depends on who you are and your income–it depends on how much they want you (which could be for a variety of reasons, like if they want a bassoon player that year, or if they want someone from Alaska that year, or if they just like you a lot based on your amazing essay—or whatever). It also depends on the college endowment, on their autonomy in recruitment, and on your own negotiations. </p>
<p>I totally agree it’s good to save money. Also, yes, your chances are definitely lower if you check the box saying you intend to file for financial aid. But hey, if you need the money it’s a no brainer. We’ve always checked the box. If you dont’ check the box you do have a higher chance of getting in statistically but it may make your chance weaker come merit time. Or it may not. </p>
<p>Even for those in the top income brackets ($200,000 and above) do not assume you do not qualify for merit or talent and that therefore a state university is your only sensible option. It may be—again, state universities are an excellent choice. But there are so many variables and strategies involved here. Private schools with large endowments can offer the best financial deals (if you want to go, of course), if they want you there. </p>
<p>Just know there are many options out there. Do not assume state universities are the cheapest if you feel you have no hope for financial aid and if your kid is not a genius stats wise. THere are other options out there if you wish to try for them.</p>
<p>Yes, @connections, you have a lot more experience than I do with this, so I’ll defer to your experience. However, the main point is that the aid calculation is very different for families that qualify for need-based aid than for those who don’t. There’s a growing trend towards using resources for merit based aid for upper income families (and away from need-based aid for lower income families). This will benefit some people on this list and hurt others. It’s important to know where you stand, in rough terms, even though the actual number cut-offs are probably not as well-defined as I implied. </p>
<p>Geez guys, I thought we were talking about merit aid here, not need-based aid. My point was that if you have no chance of getting aid based on need, but you don’t want to spend a fortune for a degree that has a notorious high unemployment rate, and about which you can read oodles and oodles on how hard it is for kids with this degree to additionally be saddled with high debt, don’t discount state university programs, where tuition is often lower. All things being equal, many are completely comparable to programs in private colleges but at a lower cost. I’m sorry if I insulted anyone and I do realize that for many, avoiding debt completely is impossible. But I do advise reading the thread on sticker price and thinking twice before saddling your child (or yourselves) with huge debt so that they can go to their “dream” school. Go to a show and you will see performers from all walks of life and all different schools, including schools without a well-known theater program. And there are CMU grads not working. That’s all I meant. :)>- </p>
<p>We thought once, twice… three times a lady. Again, we don’t call it “saddled” with expense (or debt, though we are taking drastic life steps to limit the actual debt) we call it committing to our child’s future. One of the reasons we chose the school we did is b/c it has a national reputation for excellence in academics as well as the arts. Should D chose another path, her degree will remain valuable, and therefore a worthy investment</p>
<p>Many years ago I went to the most expensive college in the country. I had a hefty scholarship but I also had to take out pretty big loans. My parents said they would pay for a state college, but if I wanted to go anywhere else, I had to figure it out. I did. I was really against going to the state school. I loved where I went, but yes, struggled with loans; still, no regrets, and never thought much about it. Until I had a child (not my MT child) who was very involved in some interests locally and not sure he wanted to go to college, much to my horror. Long story short, I finally convinced him to go to the state university up the road, where he could live at home and still be involved in the local stuff that was important to him. This is a school you probably have never heard of, but when I took him there to visit, I was stunned. “So THIS is where all my tax money is going!” I thought. It was gorgeous! The facilities EVERYWHERE were fabulous, the faculty were attentive, inspiring, and dedicated, and my son had classes there that truly changed his life. He ultimately got a great education, and as much as I truly loved my school, I can’t honestly say that my education, though DIFFERENT, was BETTER than his. And I believe that his degree is as valuable as mine, and that his success in life will depend on choices he makes and how hard he works more than anything. I know many people making well over 6 figures who went to state schools. If you want to go to your dream school, even if expensive and even if you have to take out loans, and you feel you can handle the debt that follows and that it is worth it, fine. But I don’t believe that my children’s degrees will be less valuable than your child’s because they went to state universities.</p>
<p>I am a public school teacher- and can joyfully go all day on the benefits of public education- State universities are often fabulous. (Though don’t think ALL the facilities came from tax dollars, they make alumni donation calls too!!!)
After all, several of the “holy grail reach” schools (CCM, U of M, TSU) are ALL state schools. Anyone who says you can’t get a great arts education at a publically funded school is wrong, but anyone saying it is nuts to pay for a private education might be wrong too…</p>
<p>Here’s the thing. Public vs private - neither is necessarily better or cheaper than the other by the time all is said and done. As far as “better”, . It is what is better for your child and your family. Both can offer quality training and education. Also, Do not think state schools are always cheaper. Many times private schools will offer more aid than a public school can, making them cost similar amounts to the public schools. I would look at both types of schools, see what size and type school best suits your child, see what aid they qualify for and go from there. You may find your final choices include both private and public schools whose final costs to you are actually quite similar. But don’t rule either type out before you really research them. You may be surprised at what you find.</p>
<p>Our state school $15,000 a year…my daughter’s private school with merit aid $9,000. Never thought that a private school would be less than our state ones…</p>
<p>Recommend that you use the FAFSA website estimator (I’m only guessing that with 9 kids you should be eligible for something?) and the merit aid estimators available on many school websites (you plug in estimated GPA, scores, etc.) – this may not be an entirely accurate method, but it will give you a good starting point to compare schools on your radar. Start keeping notes/spreadsheets/records about what you learn. Also, call financial aid offices and admissions offices from schools that interest you – remember that they get paid to give out information and can be very helpful about what can be expected. As an old-timer around here, I’m a fan of applying to schools that are financial fits (as I’ve shared many times here). We went through the process a few years ago and in hindsight there were a few schools we should have avoided based on our family’s financials - we were victims of “magical thinking” in hoping a miracle might occur. Best of luck…</p>
<p>What the heck, let’s throw in some more controversy. If you are looking merely to boost the amount of merit aid that you receive then make your high school class load as easy as possible. Blasphemy to the AP crowd, I know. Our D took honors and AP courses, along with doing the same busy schedule as all MT kids. She got through it with decent grades (not stellar), but it was a challenge. And it wasn’t much fun for her.</p>
<p>Her guidance counselor told us not to worry - once her GPA was weighted for her course load she would receive the higher merit awards. Guess what - not one single school of the 26 that she applied to asked for a weighted GPA. Not one! Every school looked at unweighted grades when making their merit award decision. </p>
<p>So,she would have been far better off financially with a 4.0 in regular English and math, foods, basket weaving, gym, etc., than she was with a 3.4 in AP/honors classes. In some cases she was shut out of thousands of dollars because of it.</p>
<p>I know that there are intrinsic benefits to taking a difficult course load, and I know that many schools do look at course load and extracurricular activities when making admissions decisions. However, in most cases that’s only if you are a non-arts major.</p>
<p>Things are different for MT kids. The admission decision is almost solely based on the audition. Nothing else really matters. Case in point - during the second semester of her senior year D was struggling to keep up with AP calculus. The drop window was closing, and she knew that her GPA would suffer. She wrote all of the college admissions departments to see if they would mind if she dropped the class. All except one (NYU) said go ahead, we don’t care. Once of the admissions guys actually said “why are you in calculus? Nobody is going to write Math-The Musical.”</p>
<p>It seems from our experience that a high GPA gets more money, regardless of which classes you are taking. Spend the extra time trying to boost your ACT/SAT score, because that also adds money.</p>
<p>@cheeseheadmike - I can absolutely see your point, assuming a child gets accepted to a BFA program. Before I reply a couple of caveats. I teach AP classes, so I have a strong bias. Also, there is NOTHING wrong with taking regular classes… if that is appropriate for that student’s level of interest/achievement. </p>
<p>My concern with a student “stepping down” to take “regular” classes (if they have been in honors/ap during earlier years at school) is twofold. One: academically selective colleges look down on that- strongly. 2. Students who don’t take rigorous classes often struggle with rigor when they get to college</p>
<p>Tell me if this scenario seems far fetched- What if the kid DOESN’T get in to a BFA? Or what if they decide they prefer the flexibility of a BA program? While you are entirely correct that calculus is rarely a component of an MT program (I’d say “never”, but you never know) basket weaving and foods are not going to be well regarded at academically competitive schools (who see a blow off senior year as a BIG red flag) Now am I saying students are ONLY doing the right thing if they are taking all AP classes senior year? Of course not. But don’t take the pressure entirely off. As this forum has SO often shown- you never know where the road will take you</p>
<p>
They kind of already did. <a href=“https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4qjYOixAg”>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4qjYOixAg</a></p>
<p>I get where cheeseheadmike is coming from though neither of my kids went to schools that had AP classes. But they were very rigorous schools by design. That may have translated to helping with the acceptances they received (on the academic side anyway) but we did also discover that merit aid is often dolled out just based on a formula involving GPA and test scores and not looking that closely at the rigor of the courses nor the school, just the number. I wouldn’t change a thing. I’m 100% with toowonderful and would not have (and did not) change course. I wanted my kids to chase the best education possible all the way through and I still do. (But it sure would have been nice to have some of that merit $ so believe me, I get it.) 
</p>
<p>Although it is no longer given, D was awarded academic merit aid at NYU from the Vocal Performance (MT) dept in Steinhardt. NYU is known for its mix of talent based programs and strong academics. Their merit aid back in 2008 was given directly from the department and went to incoming freshman that they really wanted to woo. Those with the highest stats got the “academic” money. Those with lower stats got $ from the “talent” budget. These days true merit aid is all “talent”, but it shows how much academics matter at some schools. </p>
<p>Not to turn this in to an NYU thread (as it is not), but if Steinhardt still awards merit aid on talent alone, that’s good to know. For the most part at Tisch, aid is based on financial need and there is not much money awarded absent need no matter how talented or how “merited” you are. Or… there is and the rest of us are in the dark and believing what we read and have seen posted publically. But I have yet to come across examples of that not that anyone would say so or they do say so but they don’t really get that yeah… that was a need-based award too.</p>
<p>^^Yup…it is all very secretive. My friend’s son is applying to Tisch for Film and I’m still trying to figure out if there is any merit aid without need. I know that Steinhardt gives it (directly from the department) for music and studio art. Older D rec’d $11k/ year for Vocal Performance (MT) without filling out the FAFSA when she first applied in 2008–I understand it’s still being given, but only for talent, not academics. Younger D is studying studio art at NYU now. In 2012 when she applied, the art department told me that she would only be considered for talent merit if she applied RD (she was applying ED.) I was told that directly from the department, but only after I said–“hey! I have one kid who already got talent aid–what’s the deal?” She actually explained that if I ask financial aid dep’t directly, that they will say no there is no talent merit aid without need, because it’s given a special code or name that doesn’t sound like talent merit aid. </p>
<p>You’re right that it’s hard to get a straight answer from students and their parents. Kids got higher “talent” scholarships than my D, but they were all need-based. So they give it a name and make it sound like it’s only for talent, but some of those kids wouldn’t have gotten anything without need unless the department really wanted them. D had done a summer program and so the director really liked her and wanted her to attend, but I don’t think they give out bigger amounts without need.</p>