<p>distantstar: As I mentioned in my earlier post, both the Robertson and Morehead are full-freight for both in-state and out-of-state, but not directly administered by the University--rather, by their respective programs/foundations. For the Morehead, those awards are usually split evenly to in-state and OOS. Unlike the Morehead, however, the Robertson Program is not obligated in the same way to award any in-state students at all, either at Duke or at UNC. Also, those 7 in-state awarded the Robertson that you mention (I assume for 2006), were--most likely--not all offered at UNC. That was also 7 out of 33 awarded for Class of 2010. For the Class of 2009, 9 from NC were awarded (out of 32), 3 of which were made at Duke. </p>
<p>Rest assured, both are highly selective programs. While the students selected are, typically, top students academically, neither of those programs bases their selection solely on SAT scores (or GPA). You need to read about these individual programs to fully understand what might go into the selection process.</p>
<p>At any rate, if you read my earlier email, you will see that I mentioned these programs, available to both in-state and out-of-state students; however, they really aren't the focus of the issue discussed here. The issue, really, is that because of recent NC legislation, UNC merit scholarships--administered by the University (not by private foundations), that were always partial scholarships, for both in-state and OOS, are now full-freight for OOS, but remain at the same monetary award level for the in-state student. Part of the controversy here is the seeming inequity. The in-state students awarded these scholarships (which includes Carolina Scholars, Davie, Pogue) are academically on a par with their fellow awardees from OOS, yet . . . that award did not change for them. It also did not change for the OOS awardee from the previous years. Some find that an unfortunate and somewhat questionable move.</p>
<p>My D and I are super surprised. She's a very bright and funny girl whose extracurriculars are quite uncommon but her GPA was just a 3.74, and her SAT (680M/720R/730W) was just okay (and her school doesn't rank, though we know she wouldn't be valedictorian). She ended up becoming a Carolina Scholar for the $7,500 renewable. We are so excited!</p>
<p>For those interested - she won the NC PTA Outstanding Student Service Award, won four awards at Harvard Model Congress national and international competitions in SF, Boston, and Paris, and founded a club that has raised thousands of cans for our Urban Ministries.</p>
<p>For juniors, if you're worried about your stats, I hope this gives you hope.</p>
<p>Not speaking to the fairness of the IS vs OOS treatment for the Pogue, Carolina and Davies, but aren't the scholarship monies awarded from endowments and alumni donations and not NC taxpayer dollars? Clearly the Roberstons and Moreheads are privately endowed.</p>
<p>Yes, these are from private donors, and in fact, in the package with my D's scholarship letter, she is asked to respond at length to her donors speaking to her high school activities and then her future plans. I imagine she'll be squeezing in a little thank you there too ;)!<br>
We are feeling pretty ecstatic and honored right now. . . .</p>
<p>ldmom: Yes, that's correct. The funds from the Pogue, Carolina Scholars, and Davie, do come from private funds (as do the Morehead and Robertson). Unlike the Morehead and the Robertson, however, they are administered by the University (not directly by private foundations/programs). In that way, they are also (I believe) controlled by the University. For example, up until a year or so ago, the Pogue was made only to NC students; now it is open (and full-freight) to out-of-state students. So I'm guessing that, even though those funds are from private sources, the University has control over how it's administered and used. (That's a guess). Again, those are unlike the other 2, that are administered by private foundations, where the benefactors do control how their foundations use those scholarship funds. (Of course, the NC legislation also helped those programs as well, since their out-of-state students will be considered in-state for tuition purposes, too, so the programs essentially can save money and use the money saved to fund other aspects of their respective programs, and to enable them to name additional scholars each year.) This is true for the many athletic scholarships made as well. </p>
<p>The whole move was a bit convoluted and also a (back-door) way to raise that 18% cap on out-of-state students. To my mind, the more direct approach of simply pushing to raise the cap would have been preferable (and saved NC taxpayers a lot of money). However, the push to raise that cap over the years has been very unsuccessful, so this scholarship legislation was slipped in (in a somewhat slippery way) . . .</p>
<p>Congratulations on your daughter’s award, mochalady!</p>
<p>ldmom, some of the money for these scholarships comes from private funds that the University administers, and I fully support the donors being able to give them to whomever they wish, but I believe that if they want to award them to non-residents, they should pay the out-of-state tuition cost. The legislative scholarship provision is the reason these scholarships are a full-ride for out-of-state, but not in-state, since the taxpayers subsidize them at in-state rates. Some of the other scholarships, particularly the Chancellor’s Carolina Scholars (which are the majority of these awards) & the Davie, seem to come from University funds, according to this press release:</p>
<p>UNC is not the only state that provides oos tuition waivers for scholarship recipients. Georgia and South Carolina taxpayers provide reciprocal opportunities for student-residents from North Carolina. And, in fact, since both tuition and out-of-state tuition are much higher than at UNC, taxpayers from these states are generously "paying back" the taxpayers of NC. </p>
<p>Several of my son's best friends in the USC Honor's College are from North Carolina, and my tax dollars are supplementing their scholarships. It all evens out, doesn't it? Or am I missing something.</p>
<p>And the NC taxpayers on here act as if UNC-CH is the only in-state school. There are plenty of state schools your money helps fund. What's the big deal for ONE of them to open a couple doors for out-of-staters? There are plenty of other in-state schools to attend.</p>
<p>Webbie,<br>
Actually, out-of-state tuition is slightly higher at UNC than at UGA and about 2K less than at University of South Carolina. It’s up to the voters of each state as to whether they are okay with the oos tuition waiver and whether they want to raise any cap that they have on non-resident admission. I’m sure it wouldn’t be as much of an issue in NC if it weren’t for the scholarship inequity and raising the 18% cap. Neither UGA or USC offer full-rides only to out-of-state students, do they?</p>
<p>Yes, 19382, there are other UNC schools, and most of them have plenty of spaces available for both in-state and out-of-state students. Of course, it’s obvious that most residents would prefer to attend Chapel Hill over the other UNC system schools for the same reason that non-residents want to go there instead of attending their own public universities.</p>
<p>webbie: Yes, I think the issue here is two-fold. Those very same scholarships (Davie, Pogue, Carolina Scholars, and the Col. Robinson, too, I think) are being offered to OOS at full-freight-- but not full-freight to their in-state counterparts. I belive a Col. Robinson award for in-state is $2500, compared to the full-freight given to the comparable OOS who is given this same award. Same for the Davie ($5,000 for in-state), and full-freight for OOS. That seems very unfair. As stated before, it also seems unfair to the OOS who was just awarded one of these same scholarships only a year before that legislation was enacted (when it was not full-freight). </p>
<p>The other issue is that the UNC system receives ~40% from the State of NC for support (just one reason it has been so difficult to raise that 18% cap). Compare that to, say, UVA, which takes only ~10% from the state of VA. I don't really know how much SC or GA put into their university systems. Ultimately, though, the figures are there (read the link that was provided). It has been estimated that this legislation will cost the taxpayers of NC ~$20 million (conservative estimate) over the next 4 years.</p>
<p>As logosprincial has said, too, the other schools in the UNC system do not attract that many out-of-staters at the undergraduate level.</p>
<p>Jack, I now understand the difference. In SC, the "full-ride" scholarships for in-state students is also less than the amount given to oos students. However, in-state scholarship students would also be receiving the Life Scholarship, funded by our "Education Lottery," which essentially pays the difference between the IS and OOS scholarships.</p>
<p>Webbie: Thanks; that's interesting. We have an "education lottery" instituted a year or so ago (which has fallen short of expected returns for its first year, by the way), but the bulk of ours is earmarked for K-12 school construction, lowering of class sizes, etc. I believe only 10% is set aside for college scholarships, and that's for students in public or private schools in NC who qualify for Pell Grants. But that's a good idea to make up the difference in that way.</p>
<p>For the record, my opinion is UNC should bite the bullet and cover all expenses for in-state scholarship recipients as they do oos recipients. It IS a matter of principle since the increment would not be that material to the total monies awarded. Or perhaps they should do as is done here in Texas at UT-Austin, which is equal awards regardless of residency, but waiver of the oos portion of tuition and fees.</p>
<p>However.....privately endowed money, though distributed by the university, is done so, or should be, according to the guidelines established by donors. Many of the scholarships through the Carolina Scholars program are earmarked for North Carolina applicants only...per the wishes of the donors who established the funds. And the Old Well and Carolina Fellows scholarships are closed altogether to oos applicants. The fact that a substantial amount of that money is donated by out of state alums or North Carolinians who no longer reside instate is also important to note. </p>
<p>I know Carolina strives to woo both in-state and out of state students who would otherwise be Ivy League (or other highly selective) bound. The success of these efforts is part of the reason UNC is such a prestigious school. I think, in the case of a school where only 18% is oos, sometimes it MAY TAKE a full ride offer to get an oos kid to reconsider, say Yale, for a highly prestigious state school such as UNC. I'd look at it this way....those full rides are part of the recruitment factor that boosts prestige...and isn't wonderful that NC has such a top-notch school available for such a low cost to North Carolinians? </p>
<p>Also for the record, as fromdistantstar mentions, my d is one of those oos NM scholar kids with the killer credentials, awards/ecs that DIDN'T get any merit aid from UNC, except for NM monies. One of her friends got one of those oos full rides and girl can't even spell. Nice girl, but it was confounding. Something much more goes into the process than face value statistics or national awards, etc.... </p>
<p>Just keep this in mind....our d turned down a near full ride to Texas A&M (she rec'd unprecedented stacking of merit awards there), Tulane and UF, and generous offers from UT-Austin as well as Honors Programs at all....and she turned down an Ivy....just to pay to attend the honors program at UNC-Chapel Hill. Why? Quality. So....whatever it takes to bring in the best students (in state and out of state) and maintain that quality is okay with me.</p>
<p>ldmom: I'm a big fan of merit scholarships. I am in awe of and thankful for the benefactors who possess both the generosity and the vision to endow such scholarships. And, yes, they are a wonderful recruitment tool to retain top in-state students and to bring in top out-of-state students. Seems like a win-win situation to me. :)</p>
<p>I also agree, simply as a matter of equity, those scholarships that are partial for in-state should be made full scholarships to match their out-of-state counterparts. The students are academically comparable, and they are being given the same awards--just not in monetary terms--so, yes, that should be corrected. Of course, that still leaves a bit of an inequity to the OOS who received those same scholarships the previous years (who are still at UNC), but who received them only as partially funded scholarships.</p>
<p>The issue/controversy, really, is with the way the current legislation is written. It is, essentially, asking that the NC taxpayers pay the remainder of the OOS scholarships that the privately endowed funds don't cover. This includes athletic scholarships (the bulk of which are funded by the Rams Club/Boosters). I just think that the folks who pushed this legislation through, should ask the folks who are endowing the money to increase their endowments to cover these new costs--not ask the taxpayers to do so. (Of course, that would negate part of the reason for the legislation.)</p>
<p>With regard to your comment, " . . . that a substantial amount of that money is donated by out of state alums or North Carolinians who no longer reside instate is also important to note," well . . . I do think the <em>wishes</em> of those people--how they want their endowed monies to be distributed--is important to note; however, where they currently reside is of no importance at all, that I can see.</p>
<p>And I think it's terrific that your daughter chose UNC, without a merit scholarship offer, especially given all her other terrific options. I think that's pretty wonderful!</p>
<p>Thanks to Mochalady way back on Feb. 5 for encouragement of juniors without incredibly high SATs (and their parents).</p>
<p>And on the whole tax/in-state tuition thing: add this to the mix, N.C. taxpayers. We're also paying for a "legislative tuition grant" available for in-state students who choose N.C. private schools. At Wake Forest, it's $950 per semester. Elon, $1,800 per year. Duke? Can't find it quickly, but I assume it's about the same.</p>
<p>Of course, Chapel Hill remains the financial holy grail. But at this point in junior year, I'm glad to know that legislative tuition grant is there.</p>
<p>You're welcome, puplexed. I think my D's situation truly points to the fact that Carolina looks at the body of a student's work. She had a 2130; 3.75 from a specialized magnet public school unweighted; 700s on three SAT 2s, mostly 4s and 5s on her APs, but then great extracurriculars including a research project with publication in review, lots of awards and honors for things such model congress (both national and international competition), and she plays an instrument at a fairly high level. IMHO, she is truly a leader in her school, but she just never seemed to be able to break into the higher 1500s for her SAT scores. She also did not ever spend a lot of time preparing for those either! She was just too busy with other things that brought her pleasure. </p>
<p>Honestly, we were just keeping our fingers crossed that she would get into Carolina, but when she won was accepted into the Honors program there, not only were we blown away, but we felt like they truly read everything she wrote on her application, and looked at her thoroughly. </p>
<p>We both said several times as she was applying to schools, that Carolina's application seemed to be the one that really allowed her the opportunity to express who she was and what she had spent her high school doing. Even the Ivies she has applied to seemed to constrict/restrict those opportunities, and seemed to be more of the "just the facts, please."</p>
<p>"IMHO, she is truly a leader in her school, but she just never seemed to be able to break into the higher 1500s for her SAT scores. She also did not ever spend a lot of time preparing for those either! She was just too busy with other things that brought her pleasure."</p>
<p>That really helps, Mochamom, in figuring out where to apply the, er, "weight" (I won't say pressure) so busy kids can balance their lives. Study for SAT? Work on school project? Or go do volunteer work? Go eat dinner with friends? Babysit? Or get some sleep?</p>
<p>I hear lots of talk about "well-rounded" versus "angular" students, or my favorite, "pleasantly lopsided." Throughout, I'll repeat to any young person who'll listen (and try to remember myself): It's about becoming a good person and learning how to live a good life, not just about getting into a prestigious college with scholarship money.</p>
<p>If they don't learn that now, the rest of their lives could be spent stressing about the next goal, while forgetting to live in the present.</p>