<p>Is it possible for students to do well on AP exams and not really master the material? It seems that since teachers are evaluated on the pass rate for their students, there would be a big incentive to teach to the test.</p>
<p>If they are teaching students to the AP test, then they have covered the material.</p>
<p>It is usually the other way around. People call them AP classes but students have not learnt much as reflected by their AP scores.</p>
<p>I’m thinking specifically about Calc. Teachers basically know what’s going to be asked on the test and can prep kids to answer the questions. Can students spit out the answers without really understanding the fundamental concepts?</p>
<p>In general the material is “worthy” and a good teacher is able to integrate the “must know” for the test within their own teaching style and engage the students. I would not encourage my kids to take an AP class imply for the fact that it is AP if I knew with certainty that the teacher was less than enthusiastic. Fortunately with the minimal number of AP classes our school has and with the teachers teaching those classes that has not been an issue. I think schools that cram AP classes down teachers throats are doing no one a favor.</p>
<p>The reason I bring this up is that my S is taking a non-AP Calc class (his school doesn’t offer AP Calc). He’s strong in math and always has done very well on math aptitude tests. His grades in Calc have been near perfect.</p>
<p>He’s starting to prep for the AP exam using a study guide, and he says it’s hard. I don’t know how he’s going to do on the exam, but if he does poorly, there would a huge disconnect for me.</p>
<p>Calculus is a multi level class. You have pre-calc, calc A, Calc B and Calc C.</p>
<p>Which Calculus test is he preparing for - AB or BC?</p>
<p>If he is finding the self studying hard, it is quite possible the school has not taught him enough calculus or he is prepping for BC while the class may be at AB level.</p>
<p>Calculus BC is a college level 2 semester course. Most people who score a 5 are prepared to move on in most colleges to the next level without repeating in college.</p>
<p>I really would not call AP Calculus teaching to the test but more as learning really hard math.</p>
<p>He’s taking the AB exam.</p>
<p>I did dual enrollment classes in HS so I’m not familiar with AP exams. I don’t know if AP courses even existed.</p>
<p>Maybe the class just isn’t very rigorous, but that seems odd to me.</p>
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<p>It depends on the AP course/test, what score you consider to be doing “well”, and how well the AP course/test matches up to courses at the college the student eventually attends.</p>
<p>Since you are referring to calculus AB, it is intended to be equivalent to a typical first semester college calculus course in college. A non-AP high school calculus course may be easier or harder than an AP course, although in a non-elite high school, it is likely to be easier unless it is a dual enrollment course matching a nearby college’s first year calculus course.</p>
<p>If a student does well enough on the AP test to be allowed to skip a course in college, and intends to continue to courses for which the skipped course is a prerequisite, it would be a good idea for the student to try the college’s final exams of the skipped course to check his/her knowledge. This can allow for better placement, neither wasting time and tuition relearning already-known material, nor placing too far ahead and struggling due to insufficient knowledge of prerequisite material.</p>
<p>It is very hard to measure the rigor if they are not doing an AP or IB class with standardized testing at the end and have a track record of passing those tests. If your son is a good student but finding the self studying hard, it can only mean he has not been taught enough. Math gets progressively hard and builds on what one has learnt in the previous classes. </p>
<p>AB is taught as a full year class although it is considered a one semester college class. When both AB and BC are offered, many take BC to get ahead in college but BC usually has the entire AB covered in one semester and BC covered in the second. AB curve is hard compared to BC where 45% or more get 5s.</p>
<p>If someone takes Math SAT II and scores about 750+, they have covered upto precalc quite well.</p>
<p>“AB curve is hard compared to BC where 45% or more get 5s.”</p>
<p>The AB and BC tests require roughly the same percentage score to get a 5. More people make a 5 on BC most likely due to selection bias - strong students take BC, weak students are herded towards AB.</p>
<p>I tried to get him to self-study for the BC exam, but that didn’t work out. Too bad given the 45% stat. Also, generally Calc II in college is supposed to be pretty difficult.</p>
<p>Sent from my SCH-R760 using CC</p>
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<p>Not for AP Calc AB; but possible for AP Calc BC relatively speaking. It is because AP Calc BC test is not much more difficult than the AP Calc AB test. WE will find out if this is still true next week.</p>
<p>DS3 was going to take ACP calc last Fall since the AP Calc BC teacher did not “teach”. Previous students pretty much group studied themselves. Therefore, he planned to take the ACP CalcII with a good teacher and take the AP Calc BC test anyway by the end of the year. A week before his senior year, his high school switched the two teachers (AP and ACP) and DS3 almost missed the opportunity getting back in the AP class. It could have been a boring year.</p>
<p>When one takes BC, they get a subscore for AB. it is possible to flunk BC while having a passing AB subscore.</p>
<p>Also, AP calculus is average level college calculus. Many who pass the AP test (presumably AB) take the first semester of calculus at UW-Madison (a school with a top 15 or so grad math program), not the second. This is because not all calculus courses will cover the same amount of material, even at the college level. Many who attempt the second semester are not well enough prepared for it with a passing AP exam score.</p>
<p>Some high schools do not offer AP versions of courses as they would rather teach some other material- AP Biology is one example. Son got a 5 on the AP Chemistry test while getting a C in second semester senior year- he didn’t do the work as he didn’t like the teacher’s teaching (liked the teacher as a person, though). His equally intelligent cousin in another state got an A and studied in his AP Chemistry class but only got a 3 on the AP exam.</p>
<p>Thank goodness schools are not limited to teaching just AP course material and there is a standardized AP exam to show certain material has been learned. I would hate to see all students limited to just the material presented in an AP course. Students who get AP college credits miss out on more rigorous college course versions in many cases. I suppose the ability to take other college courses makes up for this.</p>
<p>It is possible to know what to do, but not master the material. Yes, you can solve problems, but do you really understand how to use the concepts, especially in the real world.</p>
<p>I’m sure there were a lot of classes you passed the final exam, but really did not know the topic. With calc, that can be devastating if you are a STEM major.</p>
<p>BTW: I took multivariable calculus and linear algebra during summer school a long time ago. I learned enough to get an “A” in the courses. I could work the problems. But, if you asked me a week later what I learned, I would have been hard pressed to explain the significance or application of any of it. Note: This was at a top college.</p>
<p>So, yes you can teach to pass the test, but have no idea how to apply what you have learned.</p>
<p>I’d be very surprised if he didn’t at least get a 3. The question will become if he should retake Calc I in college and likely be pretty bored, or take Calc II and perhaps struggle. My take is he should probably take 2. I think he’s smart enough to close the gap on whatever he may be missing.</p>
<p>It’s a good thing I checked the schedule. He thought the Calc test was next week and it’s Wednesday. He’s prepping for AP Chem tomorrow so study for Calc will have to wait until tomorrow. He has 30 more pages to go in his study guide and then he has to do practice tests. AP Bio is next week so he’ll have a lot of time to prep for that.</p>
<p>I took Calc through differential equations, but that was 30 yrs ago so I’m a little foggy on it. I enjoyed the classes and did well but never had much occasion to use them post college.</p>
<p>Sent from my SCH-R760 using CC</p>
<p>As far as Madison, a local math teacher (Madison grad), said that the AP test was more difficult than Madison’s placement exam. My S was accepted at Madison, btw, but chose not to go there. Great school, but he just didn’t have a good feeling about it. Maybe he’ll feel differently about going to grad school there.</p>
<p>Sent from my SCH-R760 using CC</p>
<p>riprorin, I would not push your son to take the higher level of Calc in college given you have just indicated he is finding studying for the AB exam is hard. </p>
<p>Don’t know what your son’s major is but if it is an area that depends on Calc, better he retake it and have a strong base. You will know more after the AP exams come back. He would need to have a 5 and feel very good to skip that level of Calc. </p>
<p>Plus, UCBAlumnus suggests students get a copy of the college’s final exam for the Math course one considers skipping. Skip the class if the exam material is solidly known. Do not make the decision based only on AP score.</p>
<p>On the contrary (and this definitely depends on the particular course and professor), there is a good chance that by taking AP Calculus instead of calculus in college one would result in greater understanding of concepts, not less. In my experience of taking college calculus classes and looking at final exams from other universities, college calculus involves more often than not evaluating a gigantic list of derivatives and integrals. No conceptual understanding needed. When students get to physics classes they don’t really understand how what they learned in Calculus I and II (a bunch of tricks and techniques) to physics problems. However if you look at the types of questions asked on AP Calculus exams there is no way you’ll pass if you only know how to evaluate derivatives and integrals.</p>