MICA vs Pratt vs VCUArts for graphic design

The USNWR rankings you cite ad nauseam are solely for GRADUATE schools. They are also outdated by 4-5 years, not to mention the questionable metrics used to formulate those particular rankings.

I am in no way attempting to minimize public schools. I am trying (apparently unsuccessfully) to point out that people investing substantial funds in an undergraduate fine arts education generally gravitate toward the perceived best value. Whereas this is heavily slanted toward dedicated art schools with international reputations such as Pratt and RISD, it is by no means limited to private institutions. Schools such as UCLA, U Michigan, and USC noted in my post immediately above are also extremely well thought of and have a large share of the 1% market.

Yes, there are those in the 1% who for one reason or another do indeed send their children to public schools. One-percenters are not by definition profligate and may well be conscious of their expenses. There may be academic or even artistic limitations, or perhaps the parents/student are looking for a broader-based education and/or social life to be found at a mainstream university with a good fine arts program. In any case, you have yet to provide any statistical basis whatsoever for your wholly unsubstantiated claim that those in the highest economic brackets predominantly send their kids to elite private art schools as opposed to reputable public school programs.

Your daughter’s success is wonderful, worthy of all the accolades you clearly crave, but it is neither a universal experience nor a universal truth by any stretch. It is just what it is; one student’s experience.

You also cannot have it both ways. Either the school at least lends value to the student’s search for internships, opportunities, and post-graduate employment or it does not. What you really want to say is that ‘elite’ private schools pave the way undeservedly for privileged kids while students at public schools earn everything they achieve, every step of the way, with no outside contacts or assistance. But if this is true, then your daughter could have garnered all of her stellar achievements at any public school, purely on her own initiative and talent. VCUArts has very little to do with it…

“Elite private art schools” typically have about 20% of their student body on Pell grants. So not everyone is a 1%'er. Also, the 1% is present at public schools as well as private, for reasons that @BrooklynRye explained.

Public schools with reputable art programs tend to have a wide range of Pells - from 15% (Michigan) to UCLA/VCU/Temple (around 30%). It’s hard to know how that shakes out for the art schools specifically, and most compete on a national level with the Pratt’s and MICA’s and RISD’s. One proxy might be MassArt, which IS a dedicated public art school and which also seems to have about 30% of undergrads on Pell grants. Assuming that’s an appropriate percentage for VCUArts, then sure - public art programs tend to skew less wealthy . . . for their in-staters. That makes sense, because VCUArts and MassArts charge about 60% less tuition for in-state vs. OOS. (Further savings can be had by living off-campus/at-home, etc. although you tend to see that at the privates as well).

If you are OOS - regardless of your financial situation - VCU’s 32k tuition might not be a better deal than something at an “elite private art school” for two reasons: 1) the private might give you sufficiently more generous merit and need-based scholarships; and 2) the private might have a superior four-year grad rate (ie have better advising, less competition for your classes, etc.). Even at in-state rates, it’s expensive to have to spend an extra year to graduate because you delay your earnings by a year.

This is not to say that being at a public college of art is a bad idea. Fit is as important as finances. Anyone who spends less than they were prepared to and graduates with excellent professional prospects has made a wise decision - regardless of whether they are attending a “public” or a “private.” And, of course, let’s not underestimate the impact that individual attributes such as talent, effort, and determination have on professional outcomes. Not sure that the metric should be focused on the highest achieving because they might do just fine regardless of where they attend. It should probably be focused on the most marginal student - the one whose talent and/or effort barely pushes him/her over the finish line. It’s how well THAT kid places that determines the school’s value-added.

wow yet another insult hurled at VCUARTS by the obtuse Rye. Really? enough already. Your post are all so transparent. Fact- VCUARTS is one of the top design schools period and that includes public and private. It enjoys an strong international
reputation as such. It has been instrumental in our D success. Could she have been just as successful elsewhere is really irrelevant and nonsensical.

crimsoneducation.org, topuniversities.com, webdesigndegreecenter.org, and format.com.

These are just a sampling of websites tracking internationally ranked art schools. Pratt, RISD, SAIC, and Parsons are consistently featured on all. I have yet to find one reputable site of this nature that omits Pratt or RISD. More telling, I have yet to find one that actually includes VCUArts.

Care to share any reputable empirical data to back your statements regarding VCU’s status both here and abroad?

“It has been instrumental in our D success. Could she have been just as successful elsewhere is really irrelevant and nonsensical.”

@Stones3 - most parents can tell whether a school is the right fit for their own kid. How much is due to initiative vs. the school’s doing can be hard to figure out - and rightly so! - due to synergistic effects of being the right kid at the right school. The challenge is to convince OTHERS about the school’s merits. That can best be done with things like placement statistics and other outcomes data along with standard stuff like retention rate and four-year graduation rate for VCUArts. If other readers had that information, then your daughter’s positive experience can be put into better context: she’ll either be an example of, or an exception to, the rule.

Placement and retention stats aren’t everything, and they don’t speak to how an individual student might or might not succeed. But they describe general measures of quality that most on the college market can relate to. And they are all correlated; for instance, the schools that track better w/r/t retention and grad rates also tend to have more success placing their graduates. Unfortunately, this information doesn’t seem to be on the VCUArts website, although I noticed that at least some of VCU’s other colleges and schools (engineering and business, for instance) readily provide at least career placement stats. Since you are very hooked into VCUArts, it would be beneficial if you could provide some of these statistics.

Further on the subject of statistics, I noticed that VCUArts doesn’t publish its admit rate. What it discloses is the number of applicants (2,663) and the class size (742); admission rate and yield are notably absent. Playing with the figures a bit suggests that VCUArts has a relatively high admission rate - not at all unusual for a school of art - and a respectable yield - not at all unusual for a state school with a good number of in-state matriculants. Specifically, if we apply the admission rate and yield for VCU as a whole - 86% and 32%, respectively - we arrive at pretty much the same number of enrollees as last year’s class size. So while VCUArts surely has some OOS and international students, a sizable majority simply must be from within the state of VA. That makes sense - it’s a nationally-ranked art school and VA has about 8.5 million inhabitants. Not all are going to be interested in art and design, but those who are will tend to have a definite tuition-advantage by attending VCUArts over, say, nearby MICA. Not all CC art forum readers are going to want a school with a sizable majority from the same state. So if you have enrollment stats that show otherwise, it would be beneficial if you could provide those.

Finally, I noticed - and I think you’ve alluded to this on other threads - that VCUArts weeds out their GD majors over time. It’s no surprise that you need a portfolio review to be admitted to foundation year, and then you need to apply to GD with another portfolio review. Not so unusual, especially for a large public art school. What IS unusual is that you are again reviewed at the end of sophomore year, and then again at the end of junior year. Therefore, it’s possible to get all the way to end of junior year but not be allowed to advance in the program or graduate. This process is disclosed in the latest university catalog (http://bulletin.vcu.edu/pdf/2018-2019-undergraduate.pdf page 350). Without knowing more about this weed-out process, it’s very hard to understand the path for anyone wishing to pursue a specialty in graphic design. Suppose someone makes it to end of junior year and then is asked to leave. That individual needs either to start over in another major (thus increasing their years to graduation) or quit VCU altogether. Neither is a particularly favorable outcome. Another university noted for doing the same thing - SCAD - is highly criticized on this board for such and, admittedly, isn’t for everyone (I say that as a parent of a SCAD senior animation major who has watched many of her classmates leave). It’s hard to make a convincing case that VCUArts is much different - at least in graphic design. College is expensive; many would prefer a bit more certainty (either a more selective admissions process or a direct admission to a major - or both). Others simply don’t want to be surrounded with students who are here-today, gone-tomorrow and perceive that kind of environment to be at odds with a serious pursuit of art and design. To be sure, many art schools are known for having a higher attrition rate but still graduate students who go on to have successful careers. It’s just not necessarily for everyone and it helps if someone familiar with the school could provide some insight on that point. For instance, how many who start in graphic design make it to graduation in four years? What alternatives exist for those who are asked to leave the program after sophomore or junior year?

JBStillflying- fair questions and I will answer as best as I can with the appreciation I am not about to spend significant energies digging into stats that others are welcomed and encouraged as always to do . First off lets be realistic, VCUARTS is ranked #2 mfa program in the United States by the highly followed USNWR study. Now that rank will undoubtley change over time but for right now its #2 tied with UCLA and behind Yale. So Lets agree that’s not an accident and even if the next study shows a change , they still are probably in the top 5 ish.

ok as far as yield vs acceptance I have no idea . But I can attest to the absolute fact that the VCUARTS school demographics is not that of the larger VCU as a whole. I know this having attended many events and having a popular student with many many friends. I would conservatively submit that a full 75% of her friends are from OOS just like she is and several are from OOC. Secondly making assumptions about acceptance rate is just that , an assumption that I think holds no weight and no proof behind it. I can tell you I am aware of several from our D school that were not admitted. And for what its worth actor James Franco was denied acceptance as he applied and wanted entry to the sculpture program .(a fact).

As for GD majors needing to reapply each year, well heck yes! It is a tough program to get into first off and they require a serious commitment throughout and to completion. I am all for that. I would also venture to say in any of the top schools if a student is doing sub par or failing work they also have a problem. If anything it makes a GD degree more meaningful(or slightly more meaningful). But to be realistic other than getting into the major (which is competitive and many are told to go with their second choice) I have rarely heard tale of students being denied in subsequent years unless there are serious performance issues/behavior issues.

I have on many occasions posted our real time experiences with our D and the results. For us and our D its been great. She has been exposed to many many alumni and industry professionals through the school. If anything VCUARTS have over delivered. Anyone can go back and see all positive things that have happened to our daughter while attending VCUARTS or pm glad to share. Is it really any surprise that I confidently recommend the school? Now you may say our D is an exception, but I
doubt it. I think she is just the result of a student making the most of their opportunity . And keep in mind she has been high honor roll every semester as well.
It all helps.

“I will answer as best as I can with the appreciation I am not about to spend significant energies digging into stats that others are welcomed and encouraged as always to do .”

  • Actually, I was very willing to do that digging; however, those stats aren't publicly available. That's why it's helpful to have you post them from your admissions and family weekend visits and so forth - or whatever events you've attended where stats like those are shared with the families. It would be unheard of if they weren't shared in some way.

“VCUARTS is ranked #2 mfa program in the United States by the highly followed USNWR study. Now that rank will undoubtley change over time but for right now its #2 tied with UCLA and behind Yale. So Lets agree that’s not an accident and even if the next study shows a change , they still are probably in the top 5 ish.”

  • Maybe. But pretty much everyone considering VCUArts is going to be aware of this accomplishment, since it's on their website. What I was advising would be the stuff that's NOT on their website, so that others can make up their own minds about VCUArts rather than just knowing merely one person's (obviously) positive experience.

“ok as far as yield vs acceptance I have no idea . But I can attest to the absolute fact that the VCUARTS school demographics is not that of the larger VCU as a whole. I know this having attended many events and having a popular student with many many friends. I would conservatively submit that a full 75% of her friends are from OOS just like she is and several are from OOC.”

  • Sure, but your D might reasonably be fiends with the 14% who are not from VA. That's 392 friends - quite a lot by any measure. It's possible to check with VCUArts on this one and hopefully someone who is interested in providing CC readers with fact-based information will do so at some point. Undergrad, not MFA.

“Secondly making assumptions about acceptance rate is just that , an assumption that I think holds no weight and no proof behind it.”

  • True. But the numbers work so it's a maximum-likelihood guesstimate. So it's helpful evidence. Other helpful evidence is that MassArt - the one dedicated public art/design school I can think of at the moment - has 75% IS, 22% OOS, and 3% OOC. It's very likely that VCUArts is similar on the undergraduate level (MFA level - potentially a different story). So can you provide numbers that also work with their application and enrollment #'s and show 75% OOS/OOC? That's very likely what people would want to know. BTW, VCUArts is likely to be racially and ethnically quite diverse. But that's not quite the same thing as IS/OOS.

“I can tell you I am aware of several from our D school that were not admitted. And for what its worth actor James Franco was denied acceptance as he applied and wanted entry to the sculpture program .(a fact).”

  • Well, he landed on his feet at UCLA (the other #2 public school on USNews!) and then Columbia for his MFA, so I think he probably did OK for his education.

“As for GD majors needing to reapply each year, well heck yes! It is a tough program to get into first off and they require a serious commitment throughout and to completion. I am all for that. I would also venture to say in any of the top schools if a student is doing sub par or failing work they also have a problem. If anything it makes a GD degree more meaningful(or slightly more meaningful). But to be realistic other than getting into the major (which is competitive and many are told to go with their second choice) I have rarely heard tale of students being denied in subsequent years unless there are serious performance issues/behavior issues.”

  • You might be correct on the practical aspects of this "Survivor" policy - but it seems odd to have it in the first place. No one will disagree that progression in a program must be based on standards. Most schools, VCUArts included, have defined that to be GPA. This is an extra layer of scrutiny unique to GD. Does Department Chair David Shields not trust his faculty to give decent feedback during Crit? What sorts of scenarios can he give where someone is doing sub par or failing work yet scooted past the minimum GPA? And - perhaps to your point about your own daughter's stellar marks - is there grade inflation at VCUArts? People will want to know this stuff. Most would rather get poor grades and a decent critique than the opposite. It's relevant information.

“I have on many occasions posted our real time experiences with our D and the results. For us and our D its been great. She has been exposed to many many alumni and industry professionals through the school. If anything VCUARTS have over delivered. Anyone can go back and see all positive things that have happened to our daughter while attending VCUARTS or pm glad to share. Is it really any surprise that I confidently recommend the school? Now you may say our D is an exception, but I
doubt it. I think she is just the result of a student making the most of their opportunity . And keep in mind she has been high honor roll every semester as well.”

  • With all due respect to your D, no one on CC actually KNOWS whether she's an exception because we only have one person's experience - hers. That's why providing some more objective and concrete data - most of which simply isn't available publicly - is crucial to making an informed judgement about VCUArts. No one doubts your D's success and more power to her. Again, with all due respect, this subject really isn't about her. It's about VCUArts.

Frankly, posters should have the empirical data to back up their statements available BEFORE they post. Demurring from actually researching the data to back up statements, apparently made without such research prior, is just…

What is particularly interesting in researching VCUArts is that, while the school is quick to tout favorable rankings and press, it is very reticent when it comes to posting admissions statistics, including the profile of the incoming class. It is quite ready to cite general numbers from States other than Virginia, but does not provide a detailed breakdown of OOS vs. ISS. My guess, in lieu of hard data and judging by the school’s reluctance to post such data, is that the in-state population is very high. Of course, if all of my kid’s friends happen to be from out-of-state, I might claim that the school is comprised of 100% OOS students. Btw, in a world in which 300 such friends would be an extraordinary number, this would still only represent about 10% of the VCUArts undergraduate student body. An estimate of 75% OOS is simply ridiculous.

The school seats nearly 30% of applicants in its incoming freshmen class, but clearly accepts substantially more students. Judging by the historical rule of thumb for schools not having the yield of a Yale or Harvard, VCUArts probably accepts upwards of at least 50% of all applicants.

“Judging by the historical rule of thumb for schools not having the yield of a Yale or Harvard, VCUArts probably accepts upwards of at least 50% of all applicants.”

  • Not so unusual as several top art schools do the same. However, overall admit rates don't always indicate the degree of selectivity for a particular major. Always best to understand the process for the school of interest. One general rule: the "hotter" the major, the more competitive will be the path to graduation, whether it be a highly selective point of entry or a weed-out.

ignoring the general negative tone of the post , I do not have anything from our now three year old visiting day or admissions day info. I seem to recall the Dean at the time telling the class that the acceptance rate was in the 25% range (that’s for vcuarts not vcu). Say what you will, that’s what I remember. I also think it very flawed to compare a top ranked program like VCUARTS to Massart (not on the same level at all.) and draw conclusions on admissions. Lastly, please feel free to review the pages and pages of archived articles and tributes and accolades that are listed year after year about the many alumni achievements they are there for anyone to read and catalog should they wish. Oh and Franco was denied as I understand because he refused the foundation year and to VCUARTS credit they made no exception.
Nothing you have posted changes the fact that we have had a great experience with our D attending. For her I can’t imagine a better fit. Doesn’t detract from other schools she was accepted to and certainly doesn’t mean she wouldn’t have been just as successful elsewhere. But she sure seems to have landed on her feet . And that is why I recommend people consider VCUARTS . Three years ago we were unfamiliar with the school and it was only after consultation with industry professionals and successful family that our eyes were opened. For us , for her, it remains the best choice.

from website available to all
VCUarts admissions data, Class of 2022
•2,663 freshman applications for approximately 742 seats
For the entire VCUARTS 3,000 students from 20 countries and 38 states
Pratt 57.7%
Risd 24%
Mica 61.6%
Saic 69.8%

Pratt’s more like 50% as of last year - Class of '22 - per NCES data. Not sure what they report on their CDS. Parents for the Class of '23 report a significantly lower admit rate, but not sure of the specific details. Apparently application numbers were up notably and that’s going to drive down the admit rate.

VCUArts doesn’t report the number of admissions. 742 is the number ENROLLED. By that metric, all the schools listed above do exceedingly well, particularly those with a very low yield! ?

The number of applications to VCUArts is a tad lower than other schools. That’s going to drive up the admission rate, all else equal, especially with that larger number of enrolled. That doesn’t take away from quality, of course. But it IS a bit disingenuous to present their application and enrolled numbers in a manner that makes them appear “selective”. Pratt’s (now retired) president Tom Schutte used to pull this stuff at admissions events and I found it irritating (and typically was quick to correct the gob-smacked parents at my table who had just “heard” that their kid was one of the lucky 20 or 25% selected LOL). Pratt has been pretty up front on admit and enrollment numbers in general when you go to their website, however. Schutte was a marketing guy. Many presidents are.

It’s possible that VCUArts is a lot more selective for the typical OOS/OOC candidate than the IS’er.

“I also think it very flawed to compare a top ranked program like VCUARTS to Massart (not on the same level at all.) and draw conclusions on admissions.”

  • Why do you say that? Both are public art schools that attract about the same number of applicants each year. Do you have any reason - other than USNews rankings LOL - to think that these schools don't profile similarly?

Edit/update: in fact, if you used the VCUArts standard of admissions (ie x applicants for y seats), MassArts comes out way ahead: 14% vs. 28%. Which goes to show you why using that metric is nonsense.

For all-- I posted the #'s for various institutions as they are provided and published. I’ve posted our real time experience, as well as the USNWR accolade. Its all there for anyone to make their own judgement. I am extremely comfortable with what I have presented and have no desire or need to further litigate the fact that VCUARTS is one of the top design schools in the United States and enjoys a very strong reputation. Have a great semester to all.

As I stated " #2 overall MFA program" geesh I spell it out every single time and yet you still go on with the nonsensical hyperbole about undergrad, intentionally trying to be suggestive of some nefarious act. Maybe you could address why they are in fact only bhind Yale in the ranking. Rather than being dismissive of the accolade why don’t you explain yourself in why it is a dismissive recognition. And then please tell everyone why its not dismissive when its RISD getting the same accolade. you are so full…