<p>Yeah thanks hawkette for the good info. You hit the reason for my post right on the head which was my thought of "how can Michigan be rated higher in most programs than Duke and Georgetown while it is so much less selective and the students have worse stats?" I have decent stats myself (4.5 W 3.95 UW GPA, 2/300 class rank, 730 M, 700 V, 770 physics satII, 750 mathII satII) which look to be on the upper end of the Michigan spectrum. Michigan Rankings vs. Duke and Georgetown Selectivity? Seems like most people think it evens out.</p>
<p>Almost all of those statistics are meaningless when comparing Michigan to smaller private schools. You largely take classes/interact with people at your own intellectual level, since a school like Michigan is large enough for there to be noticeable stratification. If you're around the average at Michigan and taking classes with the other people around the average, you probably wouldn't be accepted to smaller private schools. If you are smart enough to have the smaller privates as a viable option, you'd likely be at the top end of the spectrum at Michigan with equally capable peers. The assumption that every student's experience will be near the "average" may work for smaller schools, but fails miserably for larger schools, which is why we keep having to re-iterate that this kind of blind application of "averages" across schools of varying sizes is irresponsibly inaccurate.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think hawkette ended this debate, but I do find it really shocking that Michigan's acceptance rate is so high (50%) and its other stats like SATs are so low.
[/quote]
Are you equally shocked that Michigan's SAT range is similar to its public school peers?
(Michigan) 1220-1420
(UCB) 1220-1470
(UCLA) 1180-1430
(UVa) 1200-1420
(UNC) 1210-1400</p>
<p>And since you love USNWR so much ... Are you shocked with the following USNWR Selectivity Rank?
(UCB) 14
(Emory) 18
(Michigan) 18
(Rice) 18
(Chicago) 21
(Johns Hopkins) 21
(UCLA) 21
(Vanderbilt) 27
(UVa) 28
(UNL) 34</p>
<p>
[quote]
*In fact, more people INTERNATIONALLY have heard of University of Michigan than Duke.<a href="response%20from%20DukeBlueDevil">/i</a>
first of all a lot of that probably has to do with michigan football and duke basketball and not academics. second, michigan is a much bigger school, what do you expect?
[/quote]
first of all to most people outside of the US, football means soccer and most people have never heard of college football, much less Michigan football. In fact, I have a hard time finding a sports bar that would show Michigan football games even though many have live access. As for basketball, internationally NBA is the name of the game; hardly anyone follows college basketball. Would it surprise you if I tell you that most people here have never heard of the BlueDevils or Coach K?</p>
<p>
[quote]
more people INTERNATIONALLY have heard of University of Michigan than Duke.
[/quote]
I'd call this international prestige, don't you agree?</p>
<p>I agree, GoBlue. Unfortunately, DukeBlueDevil refuses to believe it.</p>
<p>dilksy,
I agree that one should put the numbers in context, but I hardly think that they are "meaningless." They communicate a lot about a school and what a student will encounter there. I think that there may be as many outstanding students at your alma mater as at Georgetown and Duke, yet there are also many, many students at U Michigan who would never be admitted to Georgetown or Duke. Saying this is not meant as a slam to U Michigan-it is a fine public university-but I think it inaccurate to imply/state that these are equivalent experiences. </p>
<p>goblue,
I'm not shocked at all that U Michigan's SAT range is similar to its public school peers and I doubt that anyone would contest that. However, I am quite sure that an independent observer would easily see that, regardless of the USNWR selectivity rank, the selectivity at all of the privates that you mention is higher than that of U Michigan. </p>
<p>As you probably know, the % of Top 10% students constitutes 40% of USNWR's Selectivity rank. For a variety of reasons, this is a very poor metric when comparing schools. Many of the nation's premier privates(Harvard, Stanford, Duke, etc) lag many of the publics, eg, UC Irvine and UC Santa Barbara both score more highly than these colleges. I hope that you are not arguing that this is a quality metric. </p>
<p>As for the international debate, I suspect that many internationals accord higher scores to entire universities rather than considering a college based on its undergraduate strength. As a result, many colleges which offer superb undergraduate educations don't automatically make them well-known in non-US markets, eg, Williams, Amherst, Dartmouth, W&M, etc. In nearly all cases, these schools will be much smaller in size than a U Michigan or a U North Carolina or a U Texas and that has a large impact on the international reputation, not to mention the nature of the undergraduate experience. I believe that the OP was considering the undergraduate offering of Duke, Georgetown and U Michigan.</p>
<p>Hawkette, state universities generally de-emphasize the SAT. If Michigan students approached the SAT like students at private universities, the SAT ranges would rise by 100 points overnight. As it stands, more than half of the students at Michigan never prepare for the SAT/ACT and they generally take it only once. By never, I mean they never bought a perp book or took practice exams. They simply show up on the day of the exam, take the test and put it behind them. Those students could score much higher (to the tune of 100 points per section on the SAT and 4 points on the ACT) if they actually put the same effort into the test as close to 100% of the students who enroll at private elites. On a pound-for-pound comparison, roughly two thirs of the students at elite publics are comparable to students at private elites. </p>
<p>Secondly, if you believe that the USNWR's use of statistics is flawed when it comes to its selectivity measure, then it is safe to assume its use of statistics is flawed overall, including in the way it measures financial resources, faculty resources etc...That's the point GoBlue was making.</p>
<p>Finally, the OP did not ask about academic quality. If that were the case, for Engineering and Economics, Michigan would have a slight edge over Duke and would have a significant advantage over Georgetown. The OP was asking about reputation. It so happens that internationally, those three schools have excellent reputations. Michigan may have a slight advantage, but Duke and Georgetown are international powerhouses too.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I would be studying either business/econ or engineering with goals of entering a top tier MBA program
[/quote]
To the OP, I don't understand your choices. If you are interested in studying business/econ or engineering (but not BME), why consider Duke(no business and avg engineering) or Georgetown(no engineering)?</p>
<p>Why not consider MIT(#1 business/econ and engineering) or Princeton? Then there is no need for debate. Or Cornell, Northwestern, Chicago or even Carnegie Mellon?</p>
<p>
[quote]
As for the international debate, I suspect that many internationals accord higher scores to entire universities rather than considering a college based on its undergraduate strength. As a result, many colleges which offer superb undergraduate educations don't automatically make them well-known in non-US markets
[/quote]
I'm glad you agree ... that Michigan is more well-known (hence more prestigious) than Duke internationally ... and it has nothing to do with Michigan football or BlueDevil basketball.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I believe that the OP was considering the undergraduate offering of Duke, Georgetown and U Michigan.
[/quote]
In typical hawkette style, you keep omitting info that's not favorable to your argument. Let's exam the facts. The OP is not just considering undergraduate offering. The OP has very specifically stated that he is interested in studying business/econ or engineering (with no interest in BME).</p>
<p>Now let's compare these schools with the specific programs in mind. According to USNWR:</p>
<p>Program .......... Mich ... Duke ... Georgetown
Engineering ....... 7 ........ 25 ........ NA
Chem E ............ 10 ....... NA ....... NA
Civil ................. 7 ........ NR ....... NA
Computer ........... 7 ........ NR ....... NA
Electrical ............ 6 ........ NR ....... NA
Industrial E ......... 2 ........ NR ....... NA
Materials ............ 2 ........ NR ....... NA
Mechanical ......... 2 ......... NR ....... NA</p>
<p>Business(USN) ..... 3 ......... NA ....... 21
Business(BW) ....... 6 ........ NA ....... 19</p>
<p>Econ(Grad) .......... 11 ....... 21 ........ 48
Econ(peer) .......... 4.2 ...... 3.7 ....... 2.7</p>
<p>this is getting ridiculous. WHO CARES about the program rankings when were talking schools of this caliber(unless it is engineering school rankings obviously) You don't need to be an econ major to land an IB job ect. Rankings are important, but they are really not the end all be all for employment, especially considering how people's preferences change so drastically wherever they go. </p>
<p>
Alexandre I highly respect your oppinions, but in this case what you are saying is completely ridiculous. First of all there is no proof at all of this. Second of all who cares? If Michigan kids are lazy and do not prep for the exam or have the dedication to take it more than once than are they really the kind of students that an elite schools desires?</p>
<p>Secondly we are not talking about USNWR rankings here, but simply specific data points, which are in this case acceptance rates and average SAT scores. Michigan is a great school, but in reputation it is definitely not up to Duke's standard. Put it this way you would be very hard pressed to find a kid who would attend Michigan over Duke or a peer school of it (Penn, Columbia, Brown ect).</p>
<p>For the record I dislike Duke and am not applying there so don't accuse me of bias. If you are a top kid at Michigan you will go places, but a higher percentile kids at Duke go to top jobs than Michigan I would wager.Finally people always say well at Michigan the smart kids will all hang out togeather so who cares about the rest? Thats dumb. LIke in High school a lot of people hang out and share classes together, especially in the first two years so you will be sharing this experience with a lot of people.</p>
<p>Finally, these are all great schools, but by far a majority of students Out of State would choose Duke over Michigan and a lower majority Gtown over Michigan as well.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Michigan is more well-known (hence more prestigious)
[/quote]
being well known and being prestigious are 2 separate things.</p>
<p>no matter how hard you try you'll never convince me that umich is more prestigious than duke.</p>
<p>Go Blue, funny you bring up those other schools. I've actually visited all of them except Cornell and I just didn't like the atmosphere. I wan't to have fun in college and I don't see that happening at MIT, Princeton, Chicago, Carnegie Mellon. Princeton especially scared me. My tour guide claimed to do "interpretive dance and eat cookies" when someone asked what there is to do for fun there. Then, the info session consisted of some morbidly obese African American woman discuss the eating clubs for 90% of the time (which of course was the reason why i traveled 8 hours to New Jersey... right). And not that this matters but right outside campus my car got ran over by a dump truck going 60 mph on New Jersey's horribly planned highway system (why put stop lights if the speed limit is 55?) Maybe i met a few weird people but everyone there seemed to be the same way...
Maybe Northwestern would be ok but I think Michigan is better and I plan to apply to Cornell. I have been accepted to Michigan Engineering and am applying to Duke and Georgetown Economics. I love Duke's campus and atmosphere. I have not been to Georgetown but i love DC, i love politics and my interview went great. Hopefully, on the 15th, I get into Penn (Wharton) and this wont be an issue. However, i'm a realistic guy who doesn't like their chances and would like to plan ahead. I really appreciate all of the opinions so far. Thanks.</p>
<p>
[quote]
being well known and being prestigious are 2 separate things.</p>
<p>no matter how hard you try you'll never convince me that umich is more prestigious than duke.
[/quote]
True... but you can't be prestigious if you are not even well-known. </p>
<p>I'm not trying to convince you that Michigan is more prestigious than Duke in the US ... just telling you that Michgan is more prestigious than Duke internationally; and it has nothing to do with football or basketball. And I doubt if you are qualified to debate this unless you've lived or worked overseas for an extended period of time.</p>
<p>Bescraze, i don't mean to call you out i definitely respect your opinion. However, i wouldn't consider ivies like Penn and Columbia to be peer schools of Duke (I don't know much about Brown). I think you would be hard pressed to find kids who choose Duke over Penn and Columbia.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think you would be hard pressed to find kids who choose Duke over Penn and Columbia.
[/quote]
i wouldn't be so sure. i know a few kids who have done this.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And I doubt if you are qualified to debate this unless you've lived or worked overseas for an extended period of time.
[/quote]
if michigan is more prestigious overseas then it's because people outside the us are misinformed. lol.</p>
<p>"Finally people always say well at Michigan the smart kids will all hang out together so who cares about the rest? Thats dumb. Like in High school a lot of people hang out and share classes together, especially in the first two years so you will be sharing this experience with a lot of people."</p>
<p>If you do Honors housing, you'll be mainly taking classes and living with the top 10-15% of students in LSA your first two years. At least with my experience in the Michigan Honors math sequence, my math classes have mainly consisted of the top 10 or so kids in the class ahead of me, the top 10 or so kids in my class, and the top 10 or so students in the class below me (almost all of whom have or will go to top 10 grad schools/get jobs at well-known companies straight out of college), along with the graduate students at what's ranked as the 7th best graduate math program in the country. So even though we have at least 100 math majors per class, I've really only taken classes with the top 10%.</p>
<p>There's no denying Michigan has a much better international reputation because it's obviously the better university in terms of academics. It's one of the finest universities in the world in terms of research quality and output. Duke's academic standing isn't as strong. But this isn't saying that Duke is a bad school.</p>
<p>"Alexandre I highly respect your oppinions, but in this case what you are saying is completely ridiculous. First of all there is no proof at all of this."</p>
<p>Actually Bescraze, there is no proof of the opposite either. As a matter of fact, most in-state undergrads I knew at Michigan never prepared one iota for the SAT or ACT. They didn't have to. Michigan openly admits that they will not differentiate a great deal based on the SAT or ACT. An applicant with a 1350 on the SAT (or 29 on the ACT) will be treated the same as an applicant with a 1500 on the SAT (or 33 on the ACT), assuming they have comparable GPAs, course selection etc...</p>
<p>"Second of all who cares? If Michigan kids are lazy and do not prep for the exam or have the dedication to take it more than once than are they really the kind of students that an elite schools desires?"</p>
<p>Not studying for the SAT does not make Michigan students lazy. If top high school students from the state of Michigan know the University barely considers the SAT/ACT; if the fact that Michigan only cares about GPA were pounded into them from a very young age, they will chose to dedicate a lot more of their time to maintaining a high GPA, which Michigan values far more than the SAT/ACT. I cannot tell you the number of students who came to Michigan with stratospheric SAT scores (I was one such student) and even lofiter egos only to realize that at Michigan, they were average. I had to bust my behind to maintain a 3.4 GPA at Michigan, and that barely made me a top 40% student at the University. Those "lazy" in-state kids seemed to have gotten a hell of a lot more serious about their studies in university. Or perhaps they were always serious about their studies, but they never placed too much importance in the SAT/ACT. Either way, students like myself, who managed to get eight 5s on AP tests, a 1540/1600 on the SAT (all the way back in 1991, before the SAT was recentered, when the mean SAT score at Harvard was 1400 and at most Ivies, around 1320) and were admitted into several top universities (including Brown, Cal, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Georgetown, Northwestern and Penn), will only be slightly above average (if at all) at the University of Michigan. Yes, a lot of students will be weaker, but almost as many students will be better.</p>
<p>"Secondly we are not talking about USNWR rankings here, but simply specific data points, which are in this case acceptance rates and average SAT scores. Michigan is a great school, but in reputation it is definitely not up to Duke's standard. Put it this way you would be very hard pressed to find a kid who would attend Michigan over Duke or a peer school of it (Penn, Columbia, Brown ect). For the record I dislike Duke and am not applying there so don't accuse me of bias. If you are a top kid at Michigan you will go places, but a higher percentile kids at Duke go to top jobs than Michigan I would wager."</p>
<p>Funny you should mention those schools. I chose Michigan over all five of them. Most of the students I hung out with at Michigan chose it over private elites. And my top advisors (my mother, who is a Columbia alumna, by father, who is a Georgetown alumnus, my uncle, who is a Wharton alumnus and several professors at major universities who were classmates of my father's at Georgetown) highly recommended Michigan. In their eyes, Michigan is just as good and reputable. And it would seem that the majority of professors at peer universities agree with them. The Peer Assessment score of the USNWR would suggest senior officials at peer universities think that Duke and Michigan are identical in terms of quality of undergraduate education. In 1996, Gerhart Casper (Stanford#s president from 1992-2000 and a very respected, Yale-educated scholar) wrote the following to the editor of the USNWR:</p>
<p>"I am extremely skeptical that the quality of a university - any more than the quality of a magazine - can be measured statistically. However, even if it can, the producers of the U.S. News rankings remain far from discovering the method. Let me offer as prima facie evidence two great public universities: the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor and the University of California-Berkeley. These clearly are among the very best universities in America - one could make a strong argument for either in the top half-dozen. Yet, in the last three years, the U.S. News formula has assigned them ranks that lead many readers to infer that they are second rate: Michigan 21-24-24, and Berkeley 23-26-27."</p>
<p>Criticism</a> of College Rankings - September 23, 1996</p>
<p>Clearly, to Gerhard Casper, Cal and Michigan are arguably top 10 universities in the US. He builds his entire arguement around those two universities precisely because of how well regarded those two academic powerhouses are.</p>
<p>Can you please site one reliable and influential source that says Duke is more respected (by academics or recruiters)than Michigan? </p>
<p>"Finally people always say well at Michigan the smart kids will all hang out togeather so who cares about the rest? Thats dumb. LIke in High school a lot of people hang out and share classes together, especially in the first two years so you will be sharing this experience with a lot of people."</p>
<p>Actually Bescraze, high school and college are not the same at all. Socializing in college is far more complex and evolved than it is in high school. Generally speaking, university students spend a hell of a lot more time studying out of class in college. Who do they study with? Students whom they take classes with. I took primarily very difficult classes in college and most of my friends were students capable of handling the material. That is not to say that all my friends were brilliant, but the majority of them were pretty academically and intellectually inclined. </p>
<p>"Finally, these are all great schools, but by far a majority of students Out of State would choose Duke over Michigan and a lower majority Gtown over Michigan as well." </p>
<p>I would not be surprised if that were true. Among high school students, Duke is definitely more popular than Michigan. I am not so sure about Georgetown. I would say they are pretty even. However, the aim for thos universities is not to attract 100% of the top students that they accept. If they can attract 25%-35% of the top students they admit, they will have a very gifted class.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Princeton especially scared me. My tour guide claimed to do "interpretive dance and eat cookies" when someone asked what there is to do for fun there. Then, the info session consisted of some morbidly obese African American woman discuss the eating clubs for 90% of the time
[/quote]
That's funny. I'll have to remember that next time I talk to my partner the Princeton grad. </p>
<p>It's obvious you've done your homework but I still think you should take a closer look at Northwestern if you prefer a private school the size of Duke and G-town. Northwestern has excellent programs in engineering and economics(8th ranked), plus the Kellogg certificate programs. A private school with Big Ten spirit, and easy access to Chicago ... you can certainly have fun there.</p>
<p>getsome23, visit NORTHWESTERN. A medium-sized university with 8000 undergraduates that is academically and socially diverse.They have an excellent undergraduate engineering program and economics program (business certificate is available). I-banking industry interviews NU students. It's also part of the Big Ten conference, large Greek scene, and easy access to the city of Chicago. I had plenty of fun.</p>