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being evasive does not make one a smart, nor reasonable.
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<p>I'm not being evasive. I simply don't understand the nuances of the FAFSA versus profile issue sufficiently to answer your question. Further, I don't see how the distinction you are drawing affects my argument in any way.</p>
<p>Look, you yourself stated the following:</p>
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The professionals at fin-aid office decide in their professional judgement what is 'expected' of you.
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<p>I don't care if that "expectation" comes from the FAFSA, the profile, or from a little green man on Mars. Wherever it comes from, it's frequently (1) unreasonably high; and (2) in any event high enough that a lot of middle class parents won't pay it, effectively barring their child from the college in question for financial reasons.</p>
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Then how do you determine that the offers from those little green men in Fin Aid Offices are 'unreasonable'?
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<p>Easily. If the "expectation" of the parents is too high, then it's unreasonable. Whether it's from the FAFSA or the profile. (How high is too high is explained in my previous posts.)</p>
<p>Now . . . would you care to explain the difference behind your distinction?</p>
<p>Harvard trumpets that it is "free" for families who earn under $60,000, and that it fully meets "100% of need!" for all others.</p>
<p>You tell me how the first-born middle-class and their parents are supposed to know in advance that they won't get a cent before they apply, fill out all the financial aid forms, and finally get the bad news in March.</p>
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You tell me how the first-born middle-class and their parents are supposed to know in advance that they won't get a cent before they apply, fill out all the financial aid forms, and finally get the bad news in March.
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<p>If they read this board, they will probably get an inkling. I imagine a lot of parents discourage their children from applying to fancy private schools to avoid a situation where they have to choose between their house and their child's college.</p>
<p>Yes, heaven forbid a child should get into his/her mind to apply to a "fancy private school" such as Harvard! Better nip that in the bud early! :D</p>
<p>"where they have to choose between their house and their child's college."</p>
<p>In some situations that could be true, but in many cases the parents can re-finance and get their equity out of the hous to fund the college. I have seen that happening countless time, some parents (one on this board) refinanced their houses several times to pay for the college, some do it to start a business and some do it to play in the stock market.</p>
<p>House is an asset, just like a CD or stock. It is not a sacred thing that it can not be touched.</p>
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In some situations that could be true, but in many cases the parents can re-finance and get their equity out of the hous to fund the college.
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<p>So what? That doesn't undermine my main thesis.</p>
<p>Is it reasonable to ask a family to extract every last bit of equity from their house in order to pay for college? Probably not (if the house has appreciated substantially), but in any event, if experience shows that 50% of parents will actually refuse to do so, then a college cannot honestly claim to be meeting financial need if it makes that kind of demand on parents.</p>
<p>"Yes, heaven forbid a child should get into his/her mind to apply to a "fancy private school" such as Harvard! Better nip that in the bud early!" </p>
<p>Bay -Thank you! someone here finally gets what I was saying.</p>
<p>"Yes, heaven forbid a child should get into his/her mind to apply to a "fancy private school" such as Harvard! Better nip that in the bud early!""</p>
<p>Makes no sense. Harvard is among the schools that guarantee to meet 100% of students' financial need (as determined by the documentation that the colleges require). Harvard also gives a lower proportion of its aid in grants -- including to middle class students -- than do most other colleges in the country. I think the average Harvard student graduates with $9,000 or so in loans compared to the average for most students in the country, which is almost $20,000.</p>
<p>"You tell me how the first-born middle-class and their parents are supposed to know in advance that they won't get a cent before they apply, fill out all the financial aid forms, and finally get the bad news in March."</p>
<p>Anyone smart enough to be applying to places like Harvard (the college that you referred to) is also smart enough to use the various excellent financial aid estimators like the ones on Princeton's and CC's web sites.</p>
<p>Could someone help me with the following scenario:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>A student regarded as "poor" and accepted to a private elite college with 0 or low loan</p></li>
<li><p>A student regarded as "middle class" and accepted to a private elite college with high loan. If this student does not borrow then he/she has to choose a cheap public college.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Is that true that such scenario exists? If it does not exist then the discussion ends here. If it does exist then are the colleges fair to both students? Why student 2 has to pay big debt and student 1 does not?</p>
<p>Scenerio 1 happens at a few of the top colleges in the country. Harvard, Princeton and Bowdoin come to mind. At Harvard, I believe that if one's family makes up to $60 k, one won't get any loans. The average amount of total Harvard loans for for years for all students getting aid at Harvard is $9,000, which is a very small amount of loans considering most students in the U.S. take more than $19 k total in college loans for their total college education.</p>
<p>At most colleges, including elite ones, however, poor students will have to take out some loans, which may be substantial.</p>
<p>Scenerio 2 probably happens at some private elite colleges. My guess is that such colleges also would be the same ones that would be expecting poor students to take out loans.</p>
<p>I don't know whether the scenerios that you post happen anywhere. However, middle class students are going to be in a better position than poor students to pay off loans. Students with, for instance, a 0 EFC aren't likely to get anything from their parents when it comes to: getting cars, furniture, paying moving expenses, housing deposits, etc. when they leave college and start their careers. They also are more likely to get some inheritance since their parents likely own their own homes, have life insurance, etc.</p>
<p>"Is it reasonable to ask a family to extract every last bit of equity from their house in order to pay for college? Probably not (if the house has appreciated substantially), but in any event, if experience shows that 50% of parents will actually refuse to do so, then a college cannot honestly claim to be meeting financial need if it makes that kind of demand on parents."</p>
<p>very wordy sentence. But yes colleges would like you to use every bit of investment capital for paying your kids education. If they did not consider home equity, they would be creating a tuition loophole.</p>
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Harvard is among the schools that guarantee to meet 100% of students' financial need (as determined by the documentation that the colleges require).
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<p>I think one of the points that came out in this thread is that Harvard's definition of "financial need" is unreasonably stingy vis-a-vis the children of many middle class families.</p>
<p>Just for kicks, I went to one of those internet EFC calculators to see what I would be expected to pay if my older child were starting college this year. It came to just under 50% of my after tax income. And note that I'm not using my after-tax income to go on fancy vacations or anything. I use it mainly to pay my mortgage, buy necessities, and to pay down my own debts, which include student loans.</p>
<p>To pay that amount of money 6 times (I have 2 children, 2 years apart), I would basically have to sell my house. I am hoping that in the next 10 years, my income increases substantially, which is possible. Since I am from a wealthy family, it is also possible that grandma and grandpa will help when the time comes. But failing that, I would probably tell my children that the Ivy League is out. </p>
<p>Which wouldn't be the end of the world, since I think places like Harvard are a ripoff. But I think it's pretty lame that Harvard claims to meet 100% of need. Because frankly, that's BS.</p>
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But yes colleges would like you to use every bit of investment capital for paying your kids education.
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<p>Fine, but if they demand that parents do this, they know perfectly well that many -- if not most -- parents will refuse. And they know the result of this is that the financial needs of many admittees will go unmet. So if they claim to meet 100% of financial needs while they know these things, they are lying. </p>
<p>"Just for kicks, I went to one of those internet EFC calculators to see what I would be expected to pay if my older child were starting college this year. It came to just under 50% of my after tax income."</p>
<p>Wow....your pre-tx income would be in excess of $125 k. Any 'reasonable' person in that bracket would have good savings/investment, good retirement and medical benefits and would live in relatively good house.</p>
<p>Also, the schools don't expect to pay you from your current income, but current income and past savings. </p>
<p>"Since I am from a wealthy family, it is also possible that grandma and grandpa will help when the time comes." ----why are you complaining?</p>
<p>"since I think places like Harvard are a ripoff. But I think it's pretty lame that Harvard claims to meet 100% of need. Because frankly, that's BS."</p>
<p>You are entitled to your opinion. Every year about 20,000 families/kids apply there. They certainly don't think like you.</p>
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Wow....your pre-tx income would be in excess of $125 k. Any 'reasonable' person in that bracket would have good savings/investment, good retirement and medical benefits and would live in relatively good house.
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<p>What can I say (except that you are wrong). Life is expensive in Bergen County, New Jersey. This was discussed in another thread.</p>
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why are you complaining?
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<p>Because I care about the college system in a general way; because I feel I should be able to pay for my kids' college the same way that my parents paid for mine; and because I feel that what schools like Harvard are doing is wrong.</p>
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Every year about 20,000 families/kids apply there. They certainly don't think like you
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<p>Just because they apply there doesn't mean they believe Harvard will meet their needs. Or maybe they do believe it but get surprised later. Or maybe they have lots of money and don't care if it's a ripoff.</p>