Middlebury or Berkeley???

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
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<p>I wasn’t going to go on - that last line makes no sense, haha.</p>

<p>Anyway, I wasn’t advocating any position. Your post was the first one to provide objective information, and that’s why I wanted to point out that other “objective” data like rankings in favour of Berkeley are out there, too. I can understand why people are biased towards one school or another based on their opinion and emotions, as many have demonstrated here, but I just wanted to acknowledge that rankings and news reports are not the be-all-end-all of such conversations, either.</p>

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<p>Seems like the OP has not come back describing what his/her needs and wants in a school are (as well as key decision factors like net cost and intended major). Berkeley and Middlebury are different enough that there are likely some overriding student preferences that will make the decision, so that small differences in prestige or whatever that people are arguing here do not matter.</p>

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<p>arcadia - you found me posting on other college boards trying to talk down those colleges so that prospective students might choose Cal instead? I post on the Cal board, for Cal students and for those that have questions. </p>

<p>I think it is fine for me to promote the good points of a school, but I would not be talking down other schools on their boards.</p>

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<p>I went to Berkeley for the engineering, not the liberal arts. ‘Best’ only makes sense in context of requirements.</p>

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<p>Do me a favor and go back and read every post in this thread, and tell me where I crossed the line. Note my comments and the comments they were in response to. Perhaps you’d prefer that people with differing opinions remain silent when your alma mater is concerned?</p>

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<p>Looks like the OP posted the same question in the Middlebury forum:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/middlebury-college/1337400-berkeley-middlebury.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/middlebury-college/1337400-berkeley-middlebury.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Gave a little more detail: intended major may be economics, political science, or linguistics, but not sure; has in-state tuition at Berkeley (does not mention cost or financial aid at Middlebury)</p>

<p>But in post #11 OP says that s/he got into Williams and will be attending, so the whole question becomes irrelevant.</p>

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<p>What a tiring thread. Middlebury is the best of the best of liberal arts. No questions asked. Berkeley is a big research institution that has a huge name for its grad schools and therefore has a huge name in general. </p>

<p>There are certain objective, unarguable pros and cons to each. It seems to me the notion that Berkeley is Ivy-level “elite” is a little silly, as is the notion that Middlebury is a more prestigious name than Berkeley. But it is what it is. The two are not even slightly comparable in a “which is better?” discussion. I know my preference, and the tone of my post may indicate that preference, but I understand that I’m not everyone.</p>

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<p>Arcadia, your ignorance has clouded you to think clearly. I said prestige. Do you know what that word mean? lol</p>

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<p>Nah, I’m with Acardia here. To people who really know about colleges, as in admissions in grad schools or college counselors, getting into Middlebury gives you more respect and has more “prestige”.</p>

<p>Not going to argue that Berkeley is more well known, but then, so is UMich, BU, and U of Hawaii. It’s like how most non-cosmopolitan people in Japan believe that Harvard has got nothing on University of Tokyo just because they don’t know anything about Harvard. 10 people in my high school got into Berkeley this year, and none of them are going. Berkeley is a good school, but it’s not a difficult school to get into. Middlebury is a less well known school, but one of the most selective schools in the nation.
A Berkeley student is one of the many when in college and also when graduated. </p>

<p>As for what you, RML, posted about only the top Middlebury students being able to go to Berkeley grad? Untrue. Midd is one of the top feeder schools according to WSJ sending kids into Harvard, Duke, Stanford, etc for grad.</p>

<p>Bottom line is: for people who only have a general understanding of the colleges in the US, Berkeley has a thousand times more prestige because most people never heard of Middlebury. But for the more education-wise educated, Middlebury is in a different league. </p>

<p>Just because you haven’t heard of Middlebury before cc, doesn’t mean your opinion is correct. </p>

<p>I got into all the UC schools I’ve applied to, including Berkeley, most with scholarships, and I’m choosing Middlebury (accepted with no financial aid/scholarships) after researching for months. Now please don’t argue unless you have something substantial to say.</p>

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<p>I most certainly do. And I also know that something that’s prestigious to one person may not be prestigious to another. To many people, a Lincoln is a prestigious car. You see them everywhere, and people recognize the brand. People in small town rural Ohio or Iowa know what a Lincoln is. Among those who know cars, however, a Bugatti Veyron is more prestigious than a Lincoln Town Car. Not many people have ever seen one, and many people have never even heard of it. Does that detract from its prestige? I would say no. You never heard of Middlebury before coming to CC, and that’s fine. Because you’ve never heard of it, does that detract from its prestige? I would say no. Many people have never heard of Middlebury, just as many people have never heard of Bugatti Veyron. But among people who know a lot about higher education, Middlebury is just as prestigious as Berkeley. Does the fact that I can buy a Berkeley sweatshirt in Wal-Mart make it more prestigious? I don’t think so. Clearer now?</p>

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<p>I think you can define prestige in two ways but I would definitely say if less people have heard of it, it certainly does detract from its prestige. You would have to argue, in general, Middlebury’s prestige is nowhere near Berkeley’s. Most of Middlebury’s recognition and prestige come from opinion leaders (like all the ranking websites arcadia quoted) and people who have a clearer picture of the education system in the US. So whose opinion should matter? Who are you trying to impress? But I would like to think even if you hang out among the elite and noblemen of people who matter and know about Middlebury’s quality, I would say they won’t be SUPER-impressed even if you tell them you went to Middlebury like they would if you own a Bugatti. Prestige is also very much a numbers game (not numbers in terms of rankings but numbers in terms of the masses), and if they are printing Berkeley sweatshirts in Walmart, that would count for something.</p>

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<p>I would vomit if I saw a Middlebury sweatshirt in Wal-mart. Honestly.</p>

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<p>Not sure comparing Middlebury to a Veyron helps your argument, since a Veyron is an extremely expensive over-the-top luxury performance car whose full capabilities are not really usable on the street. Meanwhile, the Town Car has its fans, including Warren Buffett, who had one before switching to a Cadillac DTS in support of General Motors.</p>

<p>Middlebury is a perfectly fine school (though its departmental depth varies – it appears quite strong, especially for a small school, in economics, political science, and languages, but weak in math, physics, and computer science), but it and Berkeley are different enough that each student’s needs and preferences will be the deciding factor in determining which is “better” for each specific student.</p>

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<p>Middlover:</p>

<p>

No; that is absolutely incorrect.</p>

<p>There are way many more Berkeley grads at Harvard, Yale, Stanford and JHU now that there are from Middlebury. At Yle Law, for example, there is no proof that Middlebury grads are more proffered than Berkeley grads are. What we do know, however, is that Berkeley grads would way outnumber Middlebury grads there. </p>

<p>Columbia - 17 (Ivy League)
Berkeley - 16
UPenn - 14 (Ivy League)
Cornell - 11 (Ivy League)
Michigan - 8
Amherst - 7
Pomona - 6</p>

<h2>UCLA - 5</h2>

<h2>-</h2>

<p>Middlebury - 3
[Yale</a> University Bulletin | Yale Law School 2011?2012 | Law School Students](<a href=“Welcome | Office of the University Printer”>Welcome | Office of the University Printer)</p>

<p>Now, don’t ever say that we need to adjust that for size of the schools because that is wrong. I’d say we adjust that based on the number of applicants at Yale Law. And, while we do not have the numbers of applicants, I’m inclined to believe that Berkeley would perform better than Midd.</p>

<p>At JHU Med School, the 2nd most prestigious medical school in the world, Berkeley has 17. Columbia has 10. Dartmouth has 9. MIT has 14. Princeton has 12. UCLA has 6. And Middlebury??? It only has 1.
<a href=“http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/sebin/u/p/SOMCatalog0910.pdf[/url]”>http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/sebin/u/p/SOMCatalog0910.pdf&lt;/a&gt; - page 460</p>

<p>At Harvard Law School. Berkeley has a whooping 48. Columbia has 46. Cornell has 45. Dartmouth has 35. Williams has 17. Amherst has 19. And Middlebury??? It only has 6.
<a href=“http://web.archive.org/web/20070531213708/http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php[/url]”>http://web.archive.org/web/20070531213708/http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>

TOP UNIVERSITIES BY REPUTATION 2012
[Top</a> Universities by Reputation 2012](<a href=“http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2011-2012/reputation-rankings.html]Top”>World Reputation Rankings 2012 | Times Higher Education (THE))</p>

<p>1 Harvard University United States 100.0
2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology United States 87.2
3 University of Cambridge United Kingdom 80.7
4 Stanford University United States 72.1
5 University of California Berkeley United States 71.6</p>

<h2>6 University of Oxford United Kingdom 71.2</h2>

<h2>-</h2>

<p>-
University of Michigan United States - 23.2</p>

<p>BU, Hawaii and most specially Middlebury are not in the top 100 of the world’s most reputable schools. </p>

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<p>Both Berkeley and Middlebury has about the same yield rates – in the 40+. </p>

<p>Both have about the same admit rates. </p>

<p>Here are the stats of the admitted students at Middlebury: [Class</a> Profile | Middlebury](<a href=“Apply to Middlebury College | Middlebury College”>Apply to Middlebury College | Middlebury College)
1950-2240
Test Scores – 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 640 / 740
SAT Math: 650 / 740
SAT Writing: 650 / 750
Average HS GPA: ??? - I bet lower
% of students in the top 10% of the HS Class: ??? - I bet lower</p>

<p>Here are the stats of the enrolled students at UC Berkeley. Please take note that enrolled students have usually lower figures than admitted students. <a href=“http://students.berkeley.edu/admissions/freshmen.asp[/url]”>http://students.berkeley.edu/admissions/freshmen.asp&lt;/a&gt;
1930 - 2260
Reading: 620-740
Math: 660-770
Writing: 650-750
Average HS GPA: 3.88
% of students in the top 10% of the HS Class: 98%</p>

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<p>The WSJ table was biased to East Coast schools. WSJ does not publish new version of such data.</p>

<p>And, again, the data have already spoken. Berkeley grads are way, way represented at the top grad schools in the world. At Cambridge (my alama mater uni) I have never bumped into someone who graduated from Middlebury. But Berkeley has a huge and active student-run club at both Oxford and Cambridge. So, please, let’s not kid ourselves here. It would be harder for a Middlebury grad to get onto a postgrad program at UC Berkeley than from someone who graduated from Berkeley undergrad. And Berkeley grad programs are some of the very best programs in the world. </p>

<p>Now, for me, education is an investment. Students attend prestigious schools to become marketable. That said, here’s what Forbes has to say on this:</p>

<p>University of California, Berkeley $51,400 $102,000
[Top</a> State Universities By Salary Potential](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-state-universities.asp]Top”>Best Public Colleges | Payscale)</p>

<p>Middlebury College $47,400 $92,500
[Top</a> Liberal Arts Colleges By Salary Potential](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-liberal-arts-colleges.asp]Top”>http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-liberal-arts-colleges.asp)</p>

<p>And, finally, Colleges Worth Your Investment - Full List for 2011
[Average</a> Cost for College - Compare College Costs & ROI](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/education/average-cost-for-college-ROI-2011]Average”>Average Cost for College - Compare College Costs & ROI)</p>

<h2>UC Berkeley - 14</h2>

<p>-</p>

<h2>huge gap</h2>

<h2>-</h2>

<p>Middlebury College - 116</p>

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<p>In addition to the above, Middlebury is not considered a feeder school to top bulge bracket firms. That school hardly send someone to top management consulting firms either. Berkeley, together with Stanford, is a top feeder school to top bulge bracket firms, and top management consulting firms.</p>

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<p>FYI: the Princeton Review states that the average HS gpa for Midd is a 4.0 </p>

<p>Also, of course Middlebury isn’t in the best university rankings… Midd is a college, not a uni.</p>

<p>I can’t believe you’re bringing SAT scores into this… Hasn’t Berkeley or British education taught you that SATs don’t give you an accurate descriptor of intelligence? Especially if you’re comparing students off by a few points.
Anyway, that’s also to do with the admissions policies. Midd admissions judge character, talent, background, personality, recs (i.e. things that actually make up a student) and ultimately chooses the ones they feel are the “best”.
Middlebury will accept a student with a low SAT score if the student seems to be a stellar addition to the class. I mean, what if you have a really intelligent international student, who just hasn’t mastered English yet? Or a math genius who’s slightly dyslexic? Or a really creative artist who just isn’t suited to do maths?</p>

<p>Berkeley goes by numbers (I know they read essays too, but it’s a lot less personal), and so the better number’d students get accepted. Basically, if you’re rich enough to afford SAT tutors, or worse, hire a SAT test taker to get the score for you, you get into Berkeley/other big power schools.</p>

<p>If anything, the SATs just show that Berkeley students are better at shading circles than Middkids. </p>

<p>Well farkula really summed this one up for me so</p>

<p>"Correct me if I am wrong but from what I know, undergraduate population at UCB is 10 times that of MIDD.</p>

<p>-Number of students: 36,142 students as of Fall 2011 including 25,885 undergraduates and 10,257 pursuing graduate degrees.
Facts at a glance - UC Berkeley</p>

<p>-How many students attend Middlebury, and what is the size of an entering first-year class? About 2,450 attend the College. We enroll about 575-600 students in September at the beginning of Fall Semester and 80-90 in February at the beginning of Spring Semester.
Frequently Asked Questions | Middlebury</p>

<p>I am no stats expert but my common sense tells me that for every 1 MIDD kid represented at top grad school, there should be at least 10 UCB kid to make everything proportional. And of course, you can say that grad school admission number per college (whatever the thing is, IDK) doesn’t scale linearly, but even if u have a ratio of 1:6/7/8, MIDD kid will still be proportionally more represented. </p>

<p>As for the admit rate:
UCB:
"This year’s admissions rate was 21 percent: 61,695 students applied, and 13,037 received offers to start school in either the fall or the spring of the 2012-13 academic year. Last year, that combined admissions rate was 26 percent.</p>

<p>For students offered admission starting in the fall, the admissions rate was approximately 18 percent — the lowest on record for UC Berkeley. Last year, the fall admissions rate was 21 percent."
Campus releases 2012-13 freshman admission data</p>

<p>MIDD:
Class of 2015
Applications 8,533
Total Number of Admitted Students 1,519
Applicants Admitted 18% (17.8%)
Class Profile | Middlebury</p>

<p>Class of 2016
I am not so sure yet but I think it was at 15%.</p>

<p>Now:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RML
Both Berkeley and Middlebury has about the same yield rates – in the 40+. </p>

<p>Both have about the same admit rates.
For example class of 2015, If you SOMEHOW claim that 26% (total admission of spring and fall) is approximately = to 18% (total admission of spring and fall), then i can say that 18% is the same as 10%, making MIDD as selective as MIT and all those similar… In other words, it’s not true. Also, given that UCB admission rate is higher, the fact that it has similar yield shows that MIDD is more attractive for it’s applicants.</p>

<p>Finally, perhaps you have this British thinking (assuming since ur from Cambridge) that college is only an investment, the prestige is important etc. I understand, but if I were to think that way (and I did the A-levels myself), I would have gone to the UK unis that accept me like UCL or Cass or maybe I would even try to apply to LSE, Oxford or Cambridge. But I won’t… because college to me is a place where you live, learn and love. Obviously, I want to go to a place that treats me as a significant individual, not lost is the flood to thousands of students where ppl are known by their numbers, grads or w/e e.g UCB, UCL etc."</p>

<p>In addition, since we’re talking “prestige”… Berkeley doesn’t have a WOW-factor when you mention the name. It’s a “cool good for you” kind of school.
Middlebury either has no reaction because they(you)'re not familiar with it, or instantly gains you respect.</p>

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<p>btw according to Corbett</p>

<p>"Ironically, Boalt Hall – the Berkeley law school – historically regarded applicants from Middlebury as much more desirable than applicants from Berkeley. This was revealed in a recent lawsuit that forced Boalt to disclose some secret admissions practices. </p>

<p>Turned out that Boalt was “weighting” the GPAs of applicants from different schools. Students from preferred schools got a GPA “boost”, which obviously improved their chances for admission. Students from other schools got no GPA boost, or even had their GPAs lowered.</p>

<p>The weightings were obtained and released by the Los Angeles Times (see them here). Applicants from Middlebury got a GPA boost; Midd was ranked just below Harvard and just ahead of MIT. Berkeley grads, in contrast, got no GPA boost; Cal was ranked just ahead of SUNY-Binghamton and tied with UCSD. The bottom line is that Berkeley clearly preferred to recruit law students from Middlebury, rather than from its own campus."</p>

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<p>Wow, if that’s unweighted, then that’s way better than what Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT and Caltech have. </p>

<p>So, if that’s unweighted, I seriously doubt that it is the correct figure. That’s like saying, we all have a perfect HS GPA at Midd, which is extremely unlikely to be true.</p>

<p>And, for your information, Berkeley has always had been a top contender when it comes to HS GPA ranking. It always had figures higher than half of the Ivies in terms of HS GPA requirements. And, obviously, Midd is no Ivy.</p>

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I know. That’s why if you’d read back a few posts, you’d see that my first post was about Berkeley being more prestigious than Midd, primarily because Berkeley is a global powerhouse in research, and Midd is just a lowly, small, unheard college in the NE. That first post I made didn’t mention about anything except prestige. And, by its nature, Berkeley has the upper hand, thus has the rightful claim to say such. Midd, again, is just a small, unheard college in the NE. It may offer a superb teaching standard, but the fact remains that – when it comes to prestige – Berkeley would smash Midd to the ground. And, that is true whether you agree with me or not, or you like it or not.</p>

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<p>This is ignorance at its finest. </p>

<p>If Berkeley is just about numbers, then Berkeley would just rank the applicants’ scores and offer those applicants with the highest stats from 1 to 12,000. That would have made Berkeley’s admissions staff far lesser to do. Then Berkeley’s SAT scores would then outnumber HYPSM’s. But, no. Berkeley does not play its admissions game purely based on numbers. A number of applicants with superb stats, those with perfect SATs have been turned down in the past. And, of the over 60 who have applied to Cal this year, only less than a hundred applicants with perfect SAT scores were admitted. So, clearly, Berkeley does not play that kind of game. I think that is a game commonly played by private schools.</p>