<p>I truly believe this woman's specific action can not be over-generalized. Many checks and balances in admissions (a lot more than in human resources I guess.).</p>
<p>This is unbelievably embarrassing for MIT. To have it disclosed that the Dean of Admissions at MIT did not even have a college degree. Marilee Jones statement that she misrepresented her qualifications 28 years ago and did not have the courage to correct it is absurd. She makes it sound as if she stated she had a B.S. degree when she had a B.A. degree, or that she said she had a Ph.D when she was one credit short of graduating with one. This is a woman who lied about having graduated from college and receiving two graduate degrees. This is a woman who spent only one semester as a part time non matriculated student at one school. This is a person who obviously never herself was even accepted to college. This is not about having the courage to correct an error. She knew that if she told MIT that she was not a college graduate that there would be no advancement for her. She built her entire career at MIT on a lie. I am sure that MIT would have liked to have asked her to resign without disclsoing this information, to protect the schools image. However, there was a risk that whoever leaked this information in the first place would go public with it and MIT would look like a fool.
MIT has no choice but to downplay what has happened. THey want the whole thing to go away.
I heard Marilee Jones speak at our school and her speech was really geared to those who do not appy to top tier schools. She encouraged students to relax and enjoy themselves and not be so involved in so many extra curriular activiites. The reality is that her advice did not apply to those who knew they wanted to apply to top tier schools in which they would be one onf 20,000 applicants competing for a small number of spots. Her message was inconsistent with the type of student that MIT was really looking for.
Marilee Jones created her own demise first by lying and then by putting herself in the public eye by rising without academic qualifiecations at a school with high visibility, and writing books and touring around the country. All it would take was one envious relative to be her undoing.
To say that she misrepresnted her academic qualifications is absurd. She did not have any academic qualifications.</p>
<p>
That's exactly right. She has never been through the college application process, or, was never accepted after applying. Just wow.</p>
<p>Regarding the Facebook support for her, I am appalled that so many people have such a loose definition of integrity or the value of it. These are the bright future of America. </p>
<p>I know this is a gross exaggeration, but would those same supporters be happy if the surgeon about to remove a tumor from their brain had just taken a few Chem and Bio classes, but never graduated?</p>
<p>
anitaw~</p>
<p>I have agreed with all of your posts, and I support your POV. However, when you have a kid of facebook saying THIS in support of MJ:
((EDIT -- FACEBOOK CONTENT AND REAL NAME DELETED))
Then, it truly gives a context to the unbelievable damage that her actions DID cause, and it does give you reason to wonder how she did treat apps. that may have appeared to have been "enhanced."</p>
<p>Actually, chocoholic, this discussion has reminded me of a situation similar to what you describe. When I was a child, a popular doctor who was practicing in our neighborhood was found to be practicing medicine not only without a license, but without having attended medical school. He'd apparently read a few books. I'm sure some of his patients were furious with him, but some of them were furious at the state medical board for ending his practice, and some were donating to a legal defense fund.</p>
<p>I too "am appalled that so many people have such a loose definition of integrity or the value of it." As a parent using CC to gather information about colleges I see a few different ways to interpret this:</p>
<p>1) All the support for Marilee after the deception was revealed reflects really badly on the moral clarity of (a few? some? most?) MIT students.
or,
2) The support reflects really badly on the moral clarity of young people. Check out the "Accepted at Stanford, Princeton, MIT with fake credentials" thread in the College Admissions area.
or,
3) Marilee created a cultish following. Consider this from post #135:
At the recent CPW, EVERY parent was saying "Marilee does not make a mistake!" It was so infectious that I believed she did a truly admirable job.</p>
<p>Can someone help me clarify this? Should we cross MIT off the list, or are the defenders small in number? Is this moral fuzziness everywhere, or is MIT worse? Is the Marilee spell just going to dissipate and MIT will go back to normal? Was she never truly a big influence at all? (I have to admit, that "Marilee does not make a mistake" quote give me the creeps.)</p>
<p>Or maybe there's something wrong with me. Maybe knowing students names and being nice really is a greater value than truth. Convince me.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Is this moral fuzziness everywhere, or is MIT worse?
[/quote]
From today's New York Times:</p>
<p>34 Duke Business Students Face Discipline for Cheating</p>
<p>By ALAN FINDER
Published: May 1, 2007</p>
<p>Thirty-four first-year business graduate students at Duke University cheated on a take-home final exam, a judicial board has found, in what officials called the most widespread cheating episode in the business school’s history.
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/01/us/01duke.html?_r=1&oref=slogin%5B/url%5D">http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/01/us/01duke.html?_r=1&oref=slogin</a></p>
<p>Marite,
I saw that article too. Besides being dishonest, they weren't very clever. They cheated by collaborating on a take home open-book test, and the professor noticed that answers from different students were very similar!</p>
<p>Geomom---this should not be a reason to cross MIT off your list. The fact that she was a fraud should not change the things that make MIT academically incredible. She had no effect on the professors or the high level of expectations for its students.</p>
<p>I am convinced very few people care about M.Jones. I am also convinced very few people are aware of the scandel. The story was but a blip in time and (other than the MIT people, some admissions people and people interested in college admissions) in general has already been forgotten. </p>
<p>The story was buried in my city newspaper and I read one story on internet news ( very nice to M.J.). I saw a blip on CNBC where the early 30's announcer described it as "embellishment that everyone does".</p>
<p>Check the Comcast news "fan" blip. Very nice to M.J.
Edit: Its already gone.</p>
<p>I have asked many, many people their reaction. None of them knew about it.</p>
<p>The fact that so many people are so cavalier about resume "padding" really makes me believe that the "true" candidates, the kids who aren't doing $10K of SAT tutoring, college coaching, or outright lying on their applications are absolutely screwed. It saddens me beyond belief that this is such an accepted practice, and that the deceitful students themselves seem to have no moral compass.</p>
<p>I think, if nothing else, this incident should open a dialogue about honesty in the admissions process. OTOH, if Ms Jones could hide a PhD for 20 someodd years, some kid's lie about playing Varsity vs. JV, or not really taking the trip to teach English in Thailand, is probaly small potatoes. Sad.</p>
<p>marite and mof2--- if it had been MIT students, they would have written a complicated computer program which would have reworded the grammar so that no 2 tests were the same.</p>
<p>Not implying that MIT students would cheat. They just would have been much more imaginative than this. (look up all the more famous "hacks" on campus).</p>
<p>My friend at work had heard about it, but I am not sure what she had read. She has a Ph.D. in science and is older than Marilee and me, so it was even more uncommon for women to be in science when she was in school. She is not keyed into college admissions at all. Her take on it was that MIT had "overreacted" by having her leave, because she was "very young" when she did it in order to get her "first job", and that it was very hard for women to get a job "back then". I was quite vehement in disagreeing with her, and told her that she had managed to get a Ph.D. in science and that it was insulting to her achievement for others to lie about having the same credentials she had earned by hard work. She sort of backed off and said she must not have read the whole story......</p>
<p>
[quote]
Regarding the Facebook support for her, I am appalled that so many people have such a loose definition of integrity or the value of it. These are the bright future of America.
[/quote]
I don't think it's unreasonable that MIT students and MIT employees support Marilee as a person, while acknowledging that her actions were wrong, and that her resignation was entirely justified.</p>
<p>Love the sinner, hate the sin?</p>
<p>geomom there is a context to the 'Marilee does not make a mistake' quote. When I heard Marilee speak she explained this herself. Many kids, having achieved A's in their academic life before MIT may suddenly find themselves with some low test grades and begin wondering if it was just a fluke that they were accepted. A kind of 'gee, maybe I shouldn't really be here.' Her remark that she doesn't make a mistake was intended to get him/her by this and give him reassurance that if he were accepted, then the school believes him capable of doing the coursework.</p>
<p>Personally I'm having a hard time understanding the totally black or white attitude of the posters here. A criminal being sentenced in a court of law can be given some amount of leniency if he has done 'some' good in his life as opposed to someone who has done absolutely nothing. There are many many people who consider that she has done a good job at MIT. Yes, her lies were reprehensible, but I don't think it makes me an immoral person if I can still appreciate the good she has done.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Looking from a different perspective, the vast majority of the students (over 700) invited to join this "We Love Marilee Jones" group chose not to be part of it. </p>
<p>And there was a message critical of Jones and the group posted by a MIT student on the group wall a couple of days ago. The message has been removed, which speaks a lot about the organizers of this group.</p>
<p>Andi - I think people are reacting especially strongly to this scandal because Marilee's job involved evaluating applications and hopefully screening out any lies. She also went around making speeches and writing books telling students not to lie and to be true to themselves. Her lies related to the exact topic she was supposed to be judging people on - educational achievements. The irony of this situation increases the impact of her deceptions compared to if she had told lies about her educational background but had a different type of high profile job (e.g. entertainer, sports figure, etc.)</p>
<p>If MIT was a school where a Nobel winning scientist had falsified data and received only a generous opportunity to retire, then I would be concerned about the integrity of the institution.</p>
<p>In this case, a member of the non teaching staff ,whose role is vital up until but not once a student matriculates, told a lie about herself. Not about the institution, not about admissions statistics- but about herself. No one checked on her pronouncements and she got away with it- for a while.</p>
<p>Is a person capable of this sort of lie capable of other significant lies, well I suppose so. Does this implicate the entire admissions process at MIT? Does this mean that she selectively searched for applicants who padded resumes so as to perpetuate a process of deceipt? Is this really what is being suggested????</p>
<p>If anyone chooses to throw the baby out with the bath water on this one they are seriously missing the significance of this one person in the context of the institution. </p>
<p>Moral fuzziness at MIT??? Marilee was an employee of a large institution. She is not- was NOT.... MIT.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I find this both disturbing and sad. IMHO, these kids have little sense of the unethical nature of what MJ did or the egregious hypocrisy surrounding her insistence on "integrity."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The Facebook support group probably reflects the idea that, other than the scandal publicity itself, Marilee's was a victimless crime since she "did a great job"; that the formalities she was lacking turned out to be just that.</p>
<p>Time will reveal whether, in fact, she did a good job or even as good a job as could be expected in her position. My guess is that:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Much of the perception of her success is self-created and
self-perpetuating (as in the book publication) but cannot be supported by external evidence.</p></li>
<li><p>Some level of success was inevitable with the boom in Internet and biotechnology, and the rising tide of applications fed by demographic trends. Every one of MIT's competitors has experienced the same automatic "success". MIT was already at the top and is the number one target for engineering applicants in the United States; it is hard to fail in that admissions context.</p></li>
<li><p>Success is relative to funding and resources. Admissions has become more sophisticated at all universities, to some extent an arms race. If the admissions office and its resources were expanded, one would of course expect Jones to preside over some success there.</p></li>
<li><p>The difficulty of quantifying success for an admissions officer is a huge part of the reason Jones was able to thrive in the job.</p></li>
</ol>