MIT admissions dean resigns over resume fraud. Ouch!

Parents Forum
1061

<p>Today I visited with a lawyer, career public servant in one of those three letter agencies; basically he is part of the machine that investigates and snares various frausters. I asked him his opinion of this, just curious to know what he thought. </p>

<p>Broadly, he said that approximately 15% of all degrees listed on resumes are fraudulent, specific to his world. His staff vets and prepares expert witnesses as one part of what they do, and, they do an intense background check on all of them to make sure that they really are who and what they say they are, and, 15% is the number that come back with the result that they do not hold at least one of the degrees they claim. </p>

<p>Next, he said there typically isn't any formal intent to commit fraud. Instead, what happens is the person starts out in a very slight grey area, then, some circumstance comes about that causes ego gets in the way, and before they know it, they create a lie, and then learn to live with and support that lie. He said in almost all cases they KNOW, and fully accept, that without question they ARE going to be caught. It's just a matter of time and they all accept this - but - they believe the short-term profit is worth the ultimate downfall and loss, and, typically, 100% of persons who do this have some sort of plan as to how to overcome the fallout from when they get caught.</p>

<p>As to family - he said the family ALWAYS knows.</p>

1062

<p>Andi, I do think she is suffering the consequences now. It is not just that she lost her job. There is shame and it is so public. I do believe she is suffering and has been punished. </p>

<p>SJMom, admittedly, I did not read Marilee's book or follow her too much. If she truly said that GPA, Test Scores or ECs were not that critical, then yes, that would be misleading because one must have those to get into the most selective schools. However, I'd have to examine her message and I can't talk about it fairly, I must admit. Perhaps, however, was her message to help try to ease the cut throat nature in some high school communities and to encourage kids to ease up on "doing things to impress colleges" but rather just to do what they enjoy and to strive to achieve but to be more laid back as to "what I have to do to get into college" mentality? If the latter was her message, I would agree with it. If the message was that they shouldn't worry about GPA, test scores, or ECs, I would not agree as those are needed to get into college. But I have a hard time imagining she meant THAT. </p>

<p>I think perhaps she was addressing more a mentality or competitiveness or stressed out life that has permeated some communities and families today. The admissions angst today in some school environments has gone over the top (such as portrayed in the book, The Overachievers".) I hear people from certain communities and about how each thing they do is to look good for college or better than the next guy and all this competition and stressed out lives. While I had busy kids who achieved highly, they grew up where the thinking did not revolve around college admissions and what to do to get into college and what is the next kid doing, or who has what GPA or rank or test scores, etc. etc. So, if Marilee was addressing some of the situation that is rampant in certain environments, I think THAT was a good thing. You say she encouraged kids that they didn't need a high GPA or test scores to get into college. IF she indeed said that (again, I honestly haven't followed her work closely), that would be misleading. I'd like to think her work was more aimed at reducing the cut throat attitudes that permeate certain communities, which I feel so lucky we are not a part of in my little corner of the woods. I hear about it a lot when I meet folks from other regions, or on CC, or in books like The Overachievers. And I think there ARE concerns with that atmosphere and if Marilee tried to address that, that was a good thing. I know what I am saying might not make good sense because I am missing an accurate picture of her body of work, as I have not read her book.</p>

<p>PS....but I think it was a bad thing to harp on the "don't pad your resume" when indeed she chose to do that very thing! And I think it was a bad thing to say it doesn't matter the name of your college when indeed she chose to change the name of her college on her resume to one that was more known.</p>

<p>One more PS...sorry! but part of me is laughing because isn't her book called something like "Less Stress, More Success"? I should look up the right name...but that is a message she has, right? And I want to say, well of course YOU had less stress, and achieved success, Marilee....you connived it so that you didn't have to stress over earning degrees, and you didn't have to worry about your resume....you just contrived it all and then you were able to achieve success without the stress like others have to endure! So, what IS her message? Lie your way to the top and achieve success and you won't have to have a lot of stress?? Worked for her.</p>

1063

<p>
[quote]
Andi, I do think she is suffering the consequences now. It is not just that she lost her job. There is shame and it is so public. I do believe she is suffering and has been punished.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Some posters have commented that she has not been punished- that she drew a salary for 28 years, are 'speculating' that she will write a book and collect on her 'crime' in some way . I think there is not a person on this entire web site who condones her actions. We ALL think she did a terrible, inexcusable, hypocritical thing.<br>
What now? If disgrace is not enough then what should happen? Should she be flogged, should MIT be sued because students who 'really should have' been accepted weren't due to an admissions officer lying about her resume? Where does this debate lead to?</p>

1064

<p>
[quote]
Broadly, he said that approximately 15% of all degrees listed on resumes are fraudulent, specific to his world.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>At the CIA or FBI?? That's the saddest and most shocking thing I've read on this thread. We're a nation of idiots, apparently.</p>

<p>andi--I'm really hoping the 'debate' leads to some honest soul searching at the top of MIT--and other leading universities. I'm hoping the debate serves as a lesson to the thousands of students who are affected by it. That's the main reason I'd like to see the story stay extremely negative--on Jones and MIT alone--not the daughter or husband or admitted students or any of the other bystanders.</p>

<p>The namby-pamby calls for mercy are grossly misplaced. My opinion only.</p>

1065

<p>In my opinion, she HAS been punished by loss of job and public humiliation and there WILL be jobs that she won't be able to get in the future due to her history of having lied in an employment situation. </p>

<p>She will be able to do other things, of course. She may become a college counselor. She may write more books. Whatever. </p>

<p>People do bad things. It doesn't mean they should never be able to do anything for the rest of their lives. She lied. She lost her job. I don't think she needs to go to jail! She is suffering the natural consequences to her "crime". When things like this are found out, people lose their jobs. In her case, due to her being a public figure/speaker, and how this was in the news, she is also suffering public shame. This also causes her emotional turmoil perhaps with family and friends (even with her own child). </p>

<p>By the way, I certainly do NOT agree with anyone who is questioning who should have been admitted if not for Marilee, etc. I think they are jumping on this situation and questioning MIT and its admissions process and I don't go along with that at all. They didn't get into MIT, not because of Marilee Jones but because many many many many qualified candidates at schools such as MIT with very very low admit rates, get turned away and are just as qualified as many who were admitted. That is the name of the game with elite college admissions. If my kid is not admitted to a school with a low admit rate, such as MIT's, I don't analyze why she did not get in. She, as well as we, knew she was an appropriate candidate but the odds are what they are and the outcome of a denial would NOT be surprising and we would not even begin to question it or think she wasn't qualified, or think that those who got in were more qualified, or think there was ANYTHING unfair about the situation. So, those who are jumping on that bandwagon here are using this opportunity to complain in ways that they do when rejections come out every year, not only at MIT!</p>

<p>I also, again, as I have said in previous posts, hope that Marilee's downfall is a lesson to others and particularly youth, that lying usually does NOT pay off and once found out, can have very detrimental consequences. Too bad that in Marilee's case, she got away with it and profitted from it for so long....BUT not forever!</p>

1066

<p>wow that's really interesting about the lawyer.</p>

1067

<p>Cheers- I think the 15% latetoschool was referring to are " expert witnesses" that the agencies vet , not the agency employees themselves. At least I hope that's what she meant. These witnesses, I presume, are not agency people. Is that right, LTS?</p>

1068

<p>Cheers - no no no no no - the expert witnesses themselves. This is a section of DoJ, but NOT the FBI. This lawyer's department uses expert witnesses from private industry such as doctors, scientists, specialists in precious gems and metals, people from big pharma, like that. They background check everyone because obviously the defense attorneys for whoever they're after are going to attack the government's expert witnesses, so....</p>

<p>Edited to add: somewhat off topic, but still interesting - we were talking about some of his work, and he really wants to have access to more information about where various criminals and suspects went to college. He said people commit crimes within their inner circles (of course), and friendships/relationships developed in college are the deepest and closest that most people tend to retain over the course of their lives, so, if his investigators can identify the colleges attended it helps them figure out who else to snare...it also helps them figure out the geographic range of the crime - for example, if the person is an citizen of UK, and they committed the crime in Canada, or if they're from the U.S. and studied abroad in, say, Rome, that's where the path of crime will typically always travel.</p>

1069

<p>LTS, based on that theory Facebook is going to prove to be a rather useful investigative tool for developing leads re the current generation of college students.</p>

1070

<p>I am sure that she is feeling humiliated, and that there are employers who will not hire her b/c of her lies. Most of her working years are behind her, and not ahead of her. She earned more money in that position than many honest folks will earn who listed a 4 year degree from the College of ST. Rose, or elsewhere and worked from age 22-65. She probably laughed her way to the bank for 28 years. I am sure that she put in a lot of hard work on the job, but she still did not have the degrees/credentials that she claimed to have had.</p>

<p>I can believe that 15% of potential employees lie about their credentials.</p>

1071

<p>Should she be punished legally or financially or will losing the prestige be enough punishment? Personally, I think people who break the law should be prosecuted, but I'm not sure of the legal grounds for action here. I don't see sending her up the river, but maybe her pension or book advance should be curtailed. </p>

<p>My interest in following this case is mostly because I hate phonies (me and Holden Caulfield) and mostly because I find it hard to believe that there weren't enablers involved. I believe that more people knew than are being entirely forthcoming here. This is important because eventually it will come out and it had better be sooner than later.</p>

<p>Why do I care about MIT? I have no personal connection, but I've always admired the institution, had several friends who are graduates over the years, and just would like to see them to settle this case transparently and forcefully and not have more information seep out about who knew and when.</p>

<p>I don't think this revelation has any bearing on the calibre of the admittees, but does have a lot of impact on the calibre of the administration.</p>

1072

<p>From the New York Times
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/education/03mit.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1178280322-88x18B72V1Ltf/DRZSfmxQ%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/education/03mit.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1178280322-88x18B72V1Ltf/DRZSfmxQ&lt;/a>

[quote]
The institute said Ms. Jones had not listed the College of Saint Rose on her r</p>

1073

<p>It seems very insulting to the College of Saint Rose that Marilee was so ashamed of telling anyone that she graduated from it. It sounds like it is a well respected school in its region.</p>

1074

<p>Soon after the news broke concerning MJ, an online CNN poll was running, "Have you lied on your resume?" On this unscientific poll, the percentage of people who admitted that they lied on their resume was 15%. I find it interesting (and sad) that the online poll matches LTS's information.</p>

1075

<p>motheroftwo, I really agree with you. Frankly, I never heard of this school until recently. There is a parent who has posted on cc, who has a very accomplished son who will be attending this school on a scholarship. It sounds like a solid school. The poster said that she was very impressed by the school when they visited the campus.</p>

1076

<p>Andi, I have made no personal calls for "punishment", nor have many other posters on this thread. Additionally, I have no interest in debating MIT's admissions policies. Never had a kid interested in going there, never will. I respect the school greatly.</p>

<p>What resonates for me in this thread is the different ways that good people look at this breach of honesty. I think that, contrary to what you say, there is quite a lot of controversy about it. It's quite obvious to me that some posters don't think it's nearly as egregious as others do.</p>

<p>I don't really care what Marilee Jones does or does not do in the future as an individual. What's interesting to me here is how posters think about what is appropriate behavior in these kinds of circumstances, and what's excused, or excusable.</p>

<p>For instance, I think a deeper, more thoughtful acceptance of responsibility is warranted, and the lack of that, and the lack of general caring about that among a cohort of commentators, teaches me about different value systems.</p>

<p>Reactions like the Boston Globe editorial seem epidemic, and disturbing.</p>

<p>If I were her--what would I do? I'd call it a falsification, I'd explain why it happened in non-self-serving terms, I would profusely apologize with no caveats or excuses, and I would make whatever restitution I could, such as renouncing my retirement benefits beyond what I'd contributed.</p>

<p>Not as punishment, but to try to undo the damages I'd inflicted on the values which I had staked my high-profile career on upholding.</p>

1077

<p>The 15% figure does not surprise me. Thirty years ago, I read an article about 30% of engineers claim degree which they don’t have. At that time I was just a beginning assistant professor at a tier 2 school and was experiencing the culture shock of how unprepared many of my students were. Then I told myself, at least they will get a real degree and they will probably be O.K. if others without a real degree could do it.</p>

1078

<p>From the NY Times article
[quote]
Ms. Jones’s college degree was reported yesterday in The Boston Globe and The Albany Times Union. The Times Union said it had received an anonymous tip about Ms. Jones’s attendance at the College of Saint Rose.

[/quote]
It sounds like the original tipster may have continued to supply info. Actually, the story about how this situation was revealed may prove to be more interesting.</p>

1079

<p>I believe she commited a grave mistake but honestly she was very brave to come out in the open and confess. Everybody is now condemning her while she needs encouragement. Who has never lied? She believed in her ability no doubt why she applied for her immediate former post.And did she excel? I am not defending her but I feel her</p>

1080

<p>garland: Nicely put, especially a "deeper, more thoughtful acceptance of responsibility is warranted."</p>

<p>I also agree with momrath about the "enablers." Of course, others knew about this-- if not the 2 falsified degrees on the initial resume, certainly the later addition of a sudden PhD. Absolutely. Why no one else came forward (most especially the husband) is disturbing.</p>

<p>Daissels: The point is, she didn't "come out in the open and confess" until forced to do so. Even then, she implied she had the 3 academic degrees, but she simply "misrepresented" them. In fact, she has never stated or admitted that she lied about where she received one of those degrees, and that she completely fabricated the other two. She never really apologized for duping a broad range of people for many, many years-- and getting paid handsomely for that.</p>