<p>Re: St. Rose -- It is a soild school. I had never heard of it until a few years ago. I've since met socially with two professors and several grads. A few friends are sending their kids to St. Rose on very generous merit scholarships.</p>
<p>Garland: You summed it up perfectly.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Then I told myself, at least they will get a real degree and they will probably be O.K. if others without a real degree could do it.
[/quote]
Inverse, I don't know if you teach engineering, but my H started his engineering career with no engineering degree. He graduated with a BArch during the Jimmy Carter recession years & the job offers were basically paying minimum wage. He couldn't afford the train ticket to get to the jobs! So he took a designer job with a huge corporation & was promoted to engineer within a year, as it was known that he had begun to pursue the degree at night & was capable of doing the work. Being non-credentialed never held him back, as his resume was an honest one. Jones could have easily achieved her admissions positions while pursuing degrees -- good employees who shine are like gold. No employer would want to take a chance on an unknown applicant if the in-house person shows promise & can be cultivated. (Of course, this doesn't apply with positions requiring board certification, etc. You can;t be slotted in until the credentials are in hand.)</p>
<p>I also have friends who took over positions requiring MBAs while they were still pursuing the degrees at night. All on the up and up.</p>
<p>Sjmom
Or it could just be that who ever is organizing the 35th Reunion of the College of St Rose Class of 1973 was looking over the list of graduates they lost contact with and saw her name there. :)</p>
<p>Absolutely indefensible to have lied, cheated & lied and cheated some more over a period of 28 years! I'm thinking it does say that somebody who works hard can be successful without the degree. </p>
<p>Bottom line: just how much would degrees in biology prepare one for the world of college admissions? Guess it also speaks to the fact that the subject matter is less important than the process of being educated.</p>
<p>Before everybody goes ballistic at what I've said...I whole-heartedly realize the importance of an education; learning how to think, etc. Just playing a little bit of devil's advocacy!</p>
<p>StickerShock, I understand what you said. In the school I am now teaching, most of my students are working either part time or half time outside school. Many of them are working engineers. They still want to earn an engineering degree. I believe that 30% figure was for those who claim a fake degree in their resume.</p>
<p>How disappointing to read that Carolyn believes all this dialog is simply because we "love to see the mighty fall". Does she really believe that? </p>
<p>Thankfully, evidence points otherwise. We, as a people, celebrate other's good fortunes. We love to hear of the mechanic, working in his garage after spending his days repairing cars, who invents a new engine component. We love to read stories of people who have worked hard all their life winning the lottery. We love "happy ending stories" - if the individuals involved are honest! </p>
<p>My dad told me long ago - all you really have is your name. It represents all that you are. Take care of it, protect it. You are starting out with an honorable name - make sure it stays that way!</p>
<p>I believe most of us received similar lessons when growing up. We believed it, we internalized it, we passed it on to our children.</p>
<p>And then to find out that a person who judges our children on the above - at one of the most important times in their life - is bereft of such is painful. We wonder about the message they are receiving. We wonder if this type of "news" will make them cynical, less trusting, etc. Will they begin to doubt the value of honor? </p>
<p>Why is this thread so long? Because we are honorable individuals and it bothers us when others take the concept of character, honor, decency, etc. so lightly. We don't understand it. How can this happen? So we ponder - together. I, for one, am glad to find others to share struggling with the "how and why".</p>
<p>
[quote]
My dad told me long ago - all you really have is your name. It represents all that you are. Take care of it, protect it. You are starting out with an honorable name - make sure it stays that way!
[/quote]
What a great thought! </p>
<p>As an aside, one lesson I've talked about with my kids over the years is the price of integrity. If you accept the extra $10 that a cashier mistakenly gives you as change, then your integrity is worth $10. I like to think that my integrity is priceless -- that I can't be bought. Apparently, Marilee's integrity was the compensation she received over the years. I view that as stealing, and I think she should make some financial reparations. It doesn't change what she did, but it would at least show some remorse.</p>
<p>Don't I sound like a mean mom?</p>
<p>Exactly, inverse. If H hadn't earned the degree eventually, he'd likely have hit a brick wall with advancement & promotion. Just the discipline & tenacity it takes to complete a degree, especially at night while working full time, is an important indicator of character. </p>
<p>If I were Jones' hubby, I might be demanding a DNA test on my daughter. Who knows what else she lied about. Maybe she was out and about in Albany, singing torch songs at clubs, while H thought she was in class or in the library....(If I didn't hate those smiley faces so much, I'd insert one here.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
If you accept the extra $10 that a cashier mistakenly gives you as change, then your integrity is worth $10. I like to think that my integrity is priceless -- that I can't be bought.
[/quote]
Great way to explain it to the kids. I'm going to use that line along with the sentiment from reflective's dad.</p>
<p>No, you're not a mean mom, sj.</p>
<p>Great example sjmom!</p>
<p>From MIT's Admissions Blogs</p>
<p>Stu Schmill '86 | May 04, 2007</p>
<p>"Moving Forward"
We were all saddened by the news of Marilee Jones' resignation. In reacting, we must recognize and learn from two elements that may seem to be at odds with one another: Marilee's contributions over the years and her mistakes. And we must move forward.</p>
<p>Marilee's influence was widely felt. The message of "being" vs. "doing," quality over quantity, and injecting sanity into the way parents and students approach college admissions, came at an important time for our culture, and is one that resonated deeply with many. At the same time, what Marilee did was wrong. While we don't expect our applicants to be perfect, we do require them to be truthful. And we must hold ourselves to that standard.</p>
<p>I want to reassure everyone - especially those in the MIT community (and that includes you, members of the class of 2011) - that our admissions process is, and always has been, extremely rigorous and fair. Before any applicant is accepted, that person's application passes through five stages of review and is evaluated by multiple selection teams comprised of admissions officers, faculty, and members of the Committee on Undergraduate Admissions and Financial Aid. This meritocratic and committee-based process is as rigorous and thorough as you will find anywhere. It has been basically the same for more than fifty years, stretching over the tenures of half a dozen deans and directors. And while we are always striving for improvement, we are very proud of this process and, most importantly, of its demonstrated results.</p>
<p>The admissions office has a profound responsibility. We love what we do, connecting world-class students who have a passion to change the world with the world-class faculty and resources that can successfully prepare them to do that. The students who enter MIT bring with them the talent, the hope, and the courage that energizes this campus. It is this energy that inspires all of us to reach higher, and to go further.</p>
<p>I remember the first time I felt this energy, arriving on campus as a freshman, 25 years ago. The special MIT culture lifted me up during my years as an undergraduate. After four years in Course 2, and twenty years in various roles in the athletic department, alumni association, and admissions office, I retain a profound appreciation for this culture, which encourages students to be incredibly engaged and think that nothing is impossible.</p>
<p>The real mission of the admissions office is to enroll not only the best students in the world, but also those who are best matched to MIT's culture: students who will take full advantage of the opportunities here, and who will add to the diversity and vibrancy of the living and learning community.</p>
<p>There is a deep trust placed in us by the MIT community, and indeed, by the world. I, and the outstanding staff in the admissions office, re-affirm our pledge to uphold the ideals of MIT and to demand of ourselves the same high standards of excellence, fairness, and rigor in our admissions process as MIT holds throughout the institution.</p>
<p>We are committed to learn from the past, as we create the future.</p>
<p>I have told my kids what I have been told. Your character is determined by what you decide to do in a given situation when you know for sure no one is watching or will ever be aware of your actions. Each of these instances adds up over a lifetime and continues to define your character until the day you die.</p>
<p>crosspost with above. </p>
<p>A little haughty with the entire world placing trust in MIT</p>
<p>I guess I'm not quite as exercised about this as some of you. Perhaps it's because my children are not interested in technical degrees and/or we don't live close to the center of action on the East Coast. </p>
<p>The woman is not Ken Lay or some other major devil. Yes, I definitely think she has caused harm during the most unfortunate period of college admissions: at their most competitive (& frustrating, for many!). And the worst part, to me, is that the subject/audience is young people, to whom she should have been a role model of candor, integrity, and the simplicity of which she herself spoke. But the whole business about "lying for 28 years," etc. Do we know that? As I mentioned earlier, I've never had either the temptation to, or the chutzpah to, lie on any resume, includling an entry-level one. But I have indeed had opportunities for promotion from within a company, and when those opportunities came, never once did anyone re-review my resume. Never. I wasn't resubmitting it, and in fact there was never a "separate application" for the job. I don't know what the process is at MIT. While in large public universities like UC and our own state U's, the candidate must go through all the same bureaucratic hoops as if from the outside, I know that in some academic settings <em>administrative</em> promotions are more informal.</p>
<p>Lots of posters seem to think they know how MJ feels, thinks, and whether she even has a conscience or a soul. I keep thinking about a teacher at my d's former elem. school, who definitely made missteps (though not involving veracity). She ended up being let go for some bad judgment calls. Although she was near retirement, those mistakes caused her deep grief, shame, and <em>contrition</em>. She was immediately transformed, and the humility was palpable. Do you know that there are unforgiving parents to this day who try to engage me in character assassination for this now retired teacher because of her imperfections & previous inappropriate attitude? Whereas (and despite that she did my own D some harm) what I remember her for is her moral courage in self-assessment, self-disclosure, and metanoia. </p>
<p>Perhaps if MIT wanted to let MJ do so, she would write a contrite letter to the community, similar to how this retired teacher presented herself. But MIT is probably doing damage control and wants her to go away, & quickly.</p>
<p>I know my ideas are unpopular. Oh well...</p>
<p>
[quote]
We wonder about the message they are receiving. We wonder if this type of "news" will make them cynical, less trusting, etc. Will they begin to doubt the value of honor?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Do you really think that MJ's behavior will do that to your child? Teaching my children moral and ethical behavior was an ongoing process from the time they were young children. They've seen classmates get away with cheating on tests, plagiarizing science projects, they've seen playground bullies get away with cruel behavior, US presidents lying about sexual behavior and military intelligence, celebrities being glorified despite living less than upright lives, religious leaders leading lives of hypocricy and the list goes on seemingly forever. </p>
<p>Does one more example of this make it right? Of course not. Once again, I am as appalled by her actions as anyone on this site. But I don't think that she alone is responsible for ruining the trusting innocence of our children.
I would hope that I taught my children well enough along the way that they could evaluate her behavior for what it is, see the consequences she has to face and not be devastated by a loss of trust or themselves become morally bankrupt.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do you really think that MJ's behavior will do that to your child?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No. But, do I think it has the potential to influence someone's child? Yes.</p>
<p>Edit: I think it does have the potential to make all of us more cynical, even if not less ethical in our own lives.</p>
<p>I don't think one would expect someone to turn in their own spouse for resume fraud!</p>
<p>"What now? If disgrace is not enough then what should happen? Should she be flogged, should MIT be sued because students who 'really should have' been accepted weren't due to an admissions officer lying about her resume?"</p>
<p>I, for one, think she should have been "dismissed" rather than allowed to resign. And, at the very minimum, she should not be allowed to collect any retirement/pension".</p>
<p>
[quote]
But I don't think that she alone is responsible for ruining the trusting innocence of our children.
[/quote]
"She alone?" Why that's just silly. Nobody is suggesting that kids have been shielded fom lies and fraud and disillushionment for 17 years until they heard about Ms. Jones' scam & will now abruptly change course & follow her sneaky path. But as roshke states, it adds to their cynicism.</p>
<p>
[quote]
she should not be allowed to collect any retirement/pension".
[/quote]
how do you know she will be?</p>
<p>and btw I would agree with you on this.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Marilee's influence was widely felt. The message of "being" vs. "doing," quality over quantity, and injecting sanity into the way parents and students approach college admissions, came at an important time for our culture, and is one that resonated deeply with many. At the same time, what Marilee did was wrong. While we don't expect our applicants to be perfect, we do require them to be truthful. And we must hold ourselves to that standard.</p>
<p>I want to reassure everyone - especially those in the MIT community (and that includes you, members of the class of 2011) - that our admissions process is, and always has been, extremely rigorous and fair. Before any applicant is accepted, that person's application passes through five stages of review and is evaluated by multiple selection teams comprised of admissions officers, faculty, and members of the Committee on Undergraduate Admissions and Financial Aid. This meritocratic and committee-based process is as rigorous and thorough as you will find anywhere. It has been basically the same for more than fifty years, stretching over the tenures of half a dozen deans and directors. And while we are always striving for improvement, we are very proud of this process and, most importantly, of its demonstrated results.</p>
<p>The admissions office has a profound responsibility. We love what we do, connecting world-class students who have a passion to change the world with the world-class faculty and resources that can successfully prepare them to do that. The students who enter MIT bring with them the talent, the hope, and the courage that energizes this campus. It is this energy that inspires all of us to reach higher, and to go further.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This message is remarkable. </p>
<p>On the one hand, it echoes the feel-good message some want to hear: "The message of "being" vs. "doing," quality over quantity, and injecting sanity into the way parents and students approach college admissions, came at an important time for our culture, and is one that resonated deeply with many." On the hand, it does not fail to revert to the** reality** of admissions at MIT. Yes, the unmistakable and profound responsibility of the admissions office is to connecting world-class students who have a passion to change the world with the world-class faculty and resources of MIT. To fulfill this responsibility MIT seeks to attract the best of the best for MIT. The result is that MIT might very well be the hardest US based school to get in. While HYPS might show lower overall admit rates, MIT does not offer the same preferences for hooked candidates via more generous early decision rounds. </p>
<p>Yes, it is easy to believe that MIT's "meritocratic and committee-based process is as rigorous and thorough as you will find anywhere," and probably more so than at many other schools. The evidence of this system has been highlighted by MIT's great efforts to multiply the transparency of the process, especially via its internet presence. </p>
<p>Further, should there be any doubt that the process "has been basically the same for more than fifty years, stretching over the tenures of half a dozen deans and directors? Of course not, MIT is a world class school and a school that appeals to the very best of our high school students, many who have dedicated their life to the pursuit of scientific excellence. </p>
<p>Inasmuch as the ultimate social benefits of meritocracy are in doubt --as the creator of the satirical term pointed out,-- if there is one place where it is valued, it must be MIT. Accordingly, how much credibility should the message of "return to normalcy or ... sanity" truly deserve, as long as the school struggles with the dichotomy of what it has to do and what it might want to do. </p>
<p>No matter how much publicity is given to highly spurious groups such as the Education Conservancy, the reality is that the "message" contains *NOTHING * but hollow lip service and an abject attempt to redirect the responsibility to the groups that have reacted to the admission process, but NOT created it. The schools have the responsibility to implement changes, and they DO know what to do. Blaming the so-called commercialization of the industry and over-zealous parents is a copout of epic proportions. Schools report increases in applications, increases in selectivity stats, increases in yield with ... glee. Pretending that Average Joe has a viable chance is part of this! Schools --or at least by a few officials-- love "musing" about the need to return the summers to students, but make no attempts to discontinuing their own very profitable summer programs, or stop rewarding its participants. </p>
<p>At least, they could be honest about it. Or it is really too much to ask for the lies to stop?</p>