It’s just a real hardship for MOST college graduates to have a mountain of debt and no serious income to pay it back, or to then have to pile on more debt with graduate degrees – some of which provide NO real benefit career-wise either. Law degrees from some schools are becoming worthless in the job market. Kids are now coming out of state universities with a lot of debt, too. The entire American economy is contracting when it comes to high wage jobs. We’re facing increased foreign competition. It’s so much easier for American firms to outsource to India and the Phillippines. It’s cheaper to make goods overseas, too. This is why so many US jobs are in what I call the “latte economy” – low wage service positions serving people who have skills or seniority to afford to live good. All too many college grads can’t afford mortgages due to their college debt and low wages. So, how can any good parent “encourage” their kid to pursue degrees in liberal arts if they have to finance most of it with debt? It’s just senseless. As for entrepreneurship. the most successful business people are the ones who’ve grounded themselves in a career or specialty at first before going and branching out and then parlay that expertise in a business they start. But you have to get the expertise first and that means – a good job in a career area that’s going to flourish.
The above is true but there is a huge caveat in that it is hardly restricted to liberal arts degrees. For starters, the entire definition of liberal arts is one that is often misunderstood by most people. It should not be a proxy for a degree of dubious value. Was it really all that long that the Wharton School of Business advertised its … excellence in the liberal arts? Is a degree in Economics from Stanford or Harvard not a degree in liberal arts? Again, the issue here is one of accurate definition.
And even if we clearly identify a degree, who is there to say that a “pre-professional” degree in Marketing offers a better path to a successful career. And better than one who holds a degree that conveys that the student learned how to think critically and polished his writing skills to go beyond a middle school grammar?
The problem of the ROI on one’s education is tied to many elements, and most of them are related to the individual versus the degree itself. In general, despite the fact that many dispute the conclusion as it attacks the American penchant for self-esteem, the education for the masses in the US is utterly lacking from mostly poor performing K-12 led by hordes of unqualified teachers culled from the bottom of the barrel and people only interested in the benefits that paved the way to a necessary remedial education at an equally mediocre college or university. Inasmuch as the K-12 remains (at least directly) free, the college education comes at a price that surprises most.
The bottom line is that most people pay too much for a product “we” allowed to develop into a subpar product that only satisfies the insiders and service providers. The problem is not so much on the return as it is tied to a cost that does not correspond to its value. The real solution would be to “educate” the consumer by making them realize how expensive the education they perceive as free really is for the purpose of demanding a better education.
xiggi How many French Lit majors can get a job as an Engineer vs. Engineering majors? It is true that there are a lot of jobs for which the individual degree/major makes little to no difference, but in those cases those job tend not to have need for a college degree, although an individual employer might insist on one.
For instance, being a real estate agent, a car salesman, bank teller, advertising executive, and even a CEO to name a few. You can have a degree in any subject or not have a college degree and be successful. But try to get a job as an electrical engineer without an engineering degree or job as a medical doctor without a medical degree.
What proudfather is trying to say is that people need to balance the Cost vs. Benefit of college and to make an informed decision and should not be blinded by the level of prestige or high rankings. He created this thread to highlight the fact that how one weights factors has a direct affect on rankings, and in his particular case ROI is a very important factor for him. Hence why he likes the Money ranking vs USNWR.
It has been a growing trend that a college education is paramount and for many a degree from a “top flight” college is of high value. People are all over the map on the intrinsic value of HYPSM as well as a liberal arts education. There are differing opinions of what even constitutes liberal arts studies.
What is clear is that going into debt to get a “quality education” is not good financially if the cost will not result in sufficient income to pay the student debt. All proudfather is saying is think out the consequences of why one is going to college, the costs associated with this decision and balance it with the benefits and stop focusing on the brand name.
What is the point? The French Lit might not take a engineering job but end up getting into the management level where his critical thinking and verbal skills are appreciated. This does not intimate that the engineer might not do the same and especially if he follows a “standard” approach and adds a MBA to his technical degree. For instance, the Chairman of Texaco (many years ago) was an engineer who started at the bottom, but his accomplishment was celebrated because it was a … first!
And how about the engineers who are first in line to be replaced by … cheaper engineers in the often decried outsourcing moves? And how about engineers starting at very reasonable salaries but being pigeonholed in careers without much change for advancement? How about one engineer working for a conglomerate which happens to have large French owners? Who do you think has the best chances for advancement?
It is simply not as black on white as some might think!
Is that what he is trying to say?
Are you willing to place all your fate into “payscale?” How do you factor the differences in employment between technical people at Google or Facebook who range from having NO degree at all to having a HYPS degree?
By the way, while you are it … how do you measure the graduates of Harvey Mudd, which happens to be a Liberal Arts college? Is this list really an “indictment” of prestigious and very expensive schools?
- Babson College
- Webb Institute
- Massachusetts Institute of Technology
- Princeton University
- Stanford University
- Harvard University
- Harvey Mudd College
- Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Art
- Brigham Young University
- California Institute of Technology
My take on it is that is a VERY standard list with the addition of two BS listings on top for shock value. An obvious predetermined outcome and one used by all the wannabe ranking competitors. Only school missing were Deep Springs and the military academies.
I agree with Mr.Mom62 regarding to Harvey Mudd college. I also think HM is elite school just people don’t know. It is very small STEM school. HM is one of 5 Claremont colleges. I know it maybe not for everybody but has great great program. Since my child wants to go STEM field but not sure CS, Engineering or Math. She will have time to decide her major until end of 2nd year. You can find name of HM from Payscale ( I guess people has negative opinion about this??) and also these articles http://www.thecollegesolution.com/the-colleges-where-phds-get-their-start/http://www.businessinsider.com/colleges-with-the-highest-sat-scores-2014-8
Back to Babson college. I think it is great to see some small college grads can be successful. We maybe bit surprised to see those small school could be top of the list and not Ivy league school or other well known top colleges. Babson college seems 30% are international students. I am not sure those students will go back to own countries after graduate or stay in U.S. ?? Anyway, for the business those global culture would be very useful for business school. I know list is not everything but I think it is good reference.
My D has a high school classmate who has started over a dozen businesses and is making as much money as his mom. He is a NMSF with a 35 ACT. He had his pick of colleges with great business programs, and chose Babson.