Money magazine puts Babson, Webb Institute above MIT and Ivies!

College Search & Selection
81

<p>Most families are under the income + asset ceiling for most of the so-called “full need” schools. 80% of household incomes were less than ~$106,000/year in 2013.
<a href=“Opinion and Commentary - MarketWatch”>Opinion and Commentary - MarketWatch;

<p>Here’s another comparison, showing average net costs at some “full need” private Northeastern colleges and New England state universities … plus a couple of top performers in the MONEY ranking … for families making $75,001-$110,00/year. </p>

<p>$27439 Babson
$26268 Tufts
$26142 UNew Hampshire (in state)
$26052 Franklin & Marshall
$25301 Holy Cross
$25241 Smith
$22685 Trinity College
$21393 UMass-Amherst (in state)
$21362 URhode Island (in state)
$21279 Brown (Ivy)
$21109 UConn (in state)
$21067 Webb Institute
$20930 Amherst
$20771 Vassar
$20466 Colgate
$19173 UMaine (in state)
$18795 Colby
$18373 UVermont (in state)
$16983 Dartmouth (Ivy)
$16621 Columbia (Ivy)
$14879 Yale (Ivy)
$13604 Harvard (Ivy)
(Source: IPEDS)</p>

<p>For most middle and upper middle income (let alone lower income) families, the Ivies and NESCAC liberal arts colleges (“Little Ivies”) are more or less cost-competitive with public flagships in the same region (even at in-state rates). This can be true even for some of the “full need” schools that are much less selective than HYP. Good middle income students shouldn’t have to look to niche colleges with limited offerings, or sectarian schools in distant states, to find relatively affordable options. If your stats are a little lower than 1400+T10% (or your family income is much above $110K and you don’t want to pay private rates) then your in-state public universities should provide another range of good alternatives.</p>

82

<p>I believe all of them are “need blind,” too, but the challenge is getting in when the acceptance rate is below 15% I also find it distressing how most of these private colleges go out of their way to “invite” kids to apply who have no chance, thus boosting their hopes and taking their application money. This is not just true for Ivies and elite schools, but many, many others. </p>

83

<p>So, OP, what did you think were the optimum value colleges for your kids? Aren’t they in college now?</p>

<p>As for invitations to apply, there is no requirement to follow through. Oddly, this notion has surfaced in a few threads, in the past week or so- the idea the colleges are nasty gremlins. My D1 was invited to apply by an airline steward school and the local technical college. Just blind mailings based on the PSAT, we think.</p>

84

<p>@tk21769:</p>

<p>Your point is valid, I just want to add a word of caution that the IPEDS numbers are averages across a range and the distribution of students within a range can vary from year to year and school to school (so one must be careful how one uses them)</p>

<p>For example, using the same database, but 2011-2012 data, Babson comes out at $24,503 and Colby at $22,780, which is less than a $2,000 difference vs. more than a $8,000 difference as reported in the 2012-2013 data.</p>

85

<p>@proudfather:</p>

<p>Acceptance rates at the NESCAC schools tend to range from around 15% to just over 30%. Most do not claim to be need blind, but all claim to meet full need. As a general rule, NESCAC schools do not advertise or recruit as heavily as the Ivy League schools.</p>

<p>Babson is the only coed school in the Northeast that I am aware of that has an acceptance rate above 20% and claims to be need blind. They claim to meet 95% of need.</p>

<p>I suspect that Babson’s acceptance rate will drop quite a bit this year due to all the publicity from the Money ranking.
Prior to this Babson’s reputation was regional, concentrated around the regions with high entrepreneurial activity (as well as those who watch “Shark Tank”). They have campuses in Wellesley, Boston and Silicon Valley.</p>

86

<p>@proudfather:</p>

<p>Unfortunately, in the world of holistic admissions, the notion of “inviting kids to apply who have no chance” is very tricky. If a school believes people are more than GPA’s and standardized test scores, then it is impossible to set absolute boundaries on who has a chance of getting in and who does not. </p>

<p>As an example, I had a conversation with a recent Tufts engineering grad, who had won national recognition for a product he designed while at Tufts. He said he was amazed that he got admitted. His high school grades were on the low side, but it turned out that he had worked on a very creative project and written a passionate essay about it.</p>

<p>How do you convey something like creativity in a concrete manner in order to set expectations?</p>

87

<p>Mastadon – having something “novel” on your application such as an invention is indeed a factor in admissions. what school would NOT want to accept someone like that regardless of grades? It’s a standout, and the school can try to get royalties on the kids’ patent (money money!). But did this kid also apply ED? Tufts takes a goodly number of kids ED. I know W&Mary in Virginia takes over HALF ED, and they do not have “early action.” But a school like UVA does not discriminate between early action and RD, so they told us. THe whole thing is a game. I know some folks who encourage their kids to apply to multiple schools ED because they always have the financial need escape clause to get out of it. To my knowledge, there is no central data base of ED applications, so schools have no idea if a kid applies ED, no? As for Babson having campuses in the silicon valley – i did not know that! But that, to me, sounds like a great idea. More of these snob Ivies and Elite colleges should gobble up the marginal campuses around the nation and do the same and branch out. Why reject 95 percent of your applicants? accept a few more and allow them the chance to get that name degree ;)</p>

88

<p>In a way, I feel bad for the Ivies and the students who go there. For the most part, at any of the 8 schools in that league (it’s an athletic league of course), you can get an excellent education, and those schools are filled with top-notch students and great educators and great educational opportunities. But, every other college almost without exception tries to compare itself to an Ivy League school in some way. Some compare favorably, but the vast majority do not. Then Ivy League students are labeled as “rich” or “privileged” or “snooty” and a whole host of other things when that is simply not the case. Just because you go to an elite college does not make you an elitist. Ivy League schools give a truckload of financial aid based only on need and are constantly listed as the Best Value schools. So while it may cost $60,000+ a year to go to Harvard, most of the students who go there don’t pay anywhere near that, and I personally know one person going to Princeton who is going there at no cost at all due to her family’s income level.</p>

<p>So, are Babson and Webb better than the Ivy League schools and MIT? Generally speaking, no. Are they a better fit for some students? Yes. Should they be proud of themselves for what they do well? Yes.</p>

<p>Also, choosing a college should be more about the fit than how much you will pay or how much you might make later on. Most uber-smart students enjoy being around lots of other uber-smart students, and you have way more of those at an elite college than at a state school. That’s not to say you won’t find really smart students at a state school or lower-level college too, but they are fewer.</p>

89

<p>2013 Acceptance Rates
43.1% Smith (women-only, need-aware)
36.2% Franklin & Marshall (need-aware)
33% Holy Cross (need-blind)
32.2% Boston College (need-blind)
31.8% Trinity (need-aware)
28.2% Babson (need-blind, but apparently does not claim to meet full need)
26.7% Colgate (need-aware)
26% Colby (need-aware)
24.1% Vassar (need-blind)</p>

<p>All the above colleges except Babson claim to meet 100% of demonstrated need.</p>

<p><a href=“Need-blind admission - Wikipedia”>Need-blind admission - Wikipedia;

<p><a href=“http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2014/09/15/colleges-and-universities-that-claim-to-meet-full-financial-need”>http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2014/09/15/colleges-and-universities-that-claim-to-meet-full-financial-need&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>ED rates for most of these schools are much higher.</p>

90

<p>@tk21769:</p>

<p>Good catch with BC, HC, and Vassar. Can’t believe I left out BC!</p>

<p>I double checked their brochure. Babson claims to meet 96% of need. Figuring out the implications of that number is tricky, but from US News, it appears to be the average need met across all applicants. Apparently 48% of applicants have their full need met.</p>

<p>In theory, it is possible that an applicant with need will get into Babson, but not get into need-aware, full-need schools of similar selectivity (due to it being need blind) and end up with an equal or better aid package.</p>

<p>In practice, I have heard of Babson aid packages exceeding those of schools that claim to meet full need.</p>

<p><a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/babson-college-2121”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/babson-college-2121&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>From proudfather’s post #33
"I think a major reason parents and students, and probably some bad guidance counselors, rely on these rankings so much is because they reinforce the traditional view that a “name degree” on a resume “opens doors” "</p>

<p>Except the reality is that it does often open doors. Many prestigious companies (e.g., Goldman Sachs, McKinsey, , Bain, etc.) only recruit at top schools. And getting a job outside of on-campus-recruiting is almost impossible without great connections. For companies that don’t recruit exclusively at top schools, having a degree from one of these schools (e.g., CS degree from Stanford) will make you instantly attractive to many companies. </p>

<p>Even if you want to go to professional schools (e.g., law, med), going to a top undergraduate is looked upon favorably. </p>

<p>And lastly, when you have humans reading resumes, it’s inevitable that someone will be impressed (even subconsciously) with a degree from HYPMS. I bet like 95-99% of people don’t even know what Babson is. </p>

<p>With regard to financial aid, the top schools (especially HYPMS) offer the most financial aid for needy students. Lots of schools claim to meet 100% need but the definition of “meeting” varies by a lot. There is generally an inverse correlation between prestige and amount of need-based aid offered. For example, HYPMS will almost always offer more aid than Dartmouth/Penn/Cornell. If you are actually financially needy, the top schools are often the same price or cheaper than a state school. It is a myth that the top schools are just downright unafforadable. </p>

<p>With regard to the ranking, nobody in real life cares about this ranking. Even the US News ranking is somewhat dubious. You can probably find lists where Harvard’s rank ranges from like #1 to #150. The reality is that Harvard is Harvard and is recognized as one of the top schools in the world. No offense to those from Babson or Webb Institute but those aren’t even in the same league as Harvard. If you want to make a money comparison, you should compare average incomes of students in the same field. Sure, maybe [insert #500 school here]'s CS major makes more money than Harvard’s religion majors, but I bet Harvard’s CS major makes more money than [insert #500 school here]'s CS major. </p>

<p>And to those who have problems with Harvard accepting to few people - that’s what makes it prestigious in the first place. If everyone in the world had 100 tons of gold, then gold would have little value. The point is that Harvard generally takes some of the more talented individuals in the world and provides not only a strong education, but also numerous other opportunities (e.g., networking, internships, etc.) And as I stated above, Harvard does try to “level the playing field” by ensuring that cost is not a reason for poor people to turn down a Harvard acceptance. </p>

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knight92 i never implied the Ivies and elite colleges were not worth a damn in the hiring game; just that there are many other fine schools with great expertises in some areas (Babson business, Harvey Mudd engineering, etc) that many parents and students (particularly from upper middle class families and neighborhoods in the North East) seem to ignore because they are just all enthralled with the Ivy Mystique. And, we learned from Wikipedia that only a handful of them give FULL NEED, but most of the elites do not. So, even if you are among the 10 percent or fewer who get into these schools, you are largely paying top dollar to go and UNLESS you major in something practical, you could be left with a pile of debt and a low paid job. as for top recruiters? Check out the recrutiment lists at Lehigh, RPI, Virginia Tech, Worcester Polytech and colleges with strong science, busienss and engineering programs, and you will see the same companies recruiting. But I have a hard time believing that a major technology firm is going to hire a Harvard kid who majors in philosophy over a kid from Virginia Tech with a software engineering degree . Yes, I am sure there is a bigger old boys network with Ivies and elite schools, but hiring today is so exacting and less prone to “whom you know’” than it was in the past. and, US corporations are hiring fewer and fewer people due to robotics and computerization. I again reiterate that if a kid is not (1) national merit scholar final ranking with SATs (2) in the top 5% of their class (3) some major athletic, theatrical or artistic prowess in addition to good academics (4) a URM with an interesting bleeding-heart story (4) an invention or book in print (5) legacy connections – they should think twice about even trying the Ivies and elite schools due to the low chances of getting in. when a school gets below 20% acceptance, I think that’s a good sign that they can pretty much take the cream of the crop and parents have to face realities that their kids (while they love them so much) are not the cream of the crop and stand NO or LITTLE chance.

93

Personally, given food on the table and a roof over my head, I’d rather be the type of person who is a history major barista graduate of a top school who enjoys re-reading the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire in my spare time rather than someone working 60 hours/week pushing paper from one side of my desk to another at some Fortune 500 company.

That’s just me. YMMV, of course.

I’d hypothesize though that the life satisfaction of the life of the mind barista might be higher than the paper pusher. There’s a reason why people burn out in middle-age and look for more fulfilling second careers.

94

I have one kid that graduated with an engineering degree from U of State and another that graduated from Harvard.

Before youngest enrolled at Harvard, I was firmly in the camp of “what’s the return on my investment?” Philosophy? Classics? Languages? - ha. Those were all “you want fries with that?” degrees. It wasn’t until my youngest started charting her path at Harvard that I realized that I, like many people, had come to think of college as glorified vocational training. It’s understandable - with the amount of debt most kids will incur, it only makes sense to come out with something immediately marketable in the workplace.

The idea of college being a place to foster curiosity and gain a broad field of knowledge or the freedom to delve deeply into a field without regard for it’s value in the workplace seemed like an outdated concept to me. I have to admit, I was a hard sell when my daughter would tell me how excited she was about the concentration she’d chosen. “So what can you do with it?” was my response.

By the time her senior year came around and she was traveling around the world working with leaders in her niche, I started to get it through my head. There is something of value here, over and above the number on her W-2. She could be someone who advances the current state of knowledge in her field, and be completely intellectually absorbed in the process.

So that said, is it worth the 60K per year to indulge your intellectual passion? Here’s where the real world meets the ivory tower. I would hate like hell to see my kid take on that kind of debt, regardless of their major. The big dogs of financial aid, Harvard, Yale and Princeton - generally are able to provide enough need-based funding in the form of grants to allow students from any financial background to graduate debt free - even the middle class kids that tend to get shafted out of FA at most schools.

The ‘pursuit of knowledge’ without being overly concerned about, “so what are you going to do with that degree?” is a rare luxury. But if you’re fortunate enough to attend some of the Ivies or top LACs, that notion is alive and well.

95

I am afraid you might not fully appreciate the enormous cost of expanding a school or create a new campus. Perhaps you could go some digging in the financials of Amherst when they expanded the school by a small percentage. Same story for Princeton or Claremont McKenna. In the same vein, you might want to look up the discussions about Stanford being wooed by New York to develop a new campus on that tiny island in the Big Apple’s murky waters.

Adding the extremely low return (if not negative) on such investment, you have to factor the usually negative perception of alumni and donors in seeing a diminished “rarity” element at an expanded school. Lowering the mystique of a HYPS degree is not exactly a factor that is high on the list of anyone involved with such schools.

With several thousand colleges in the US, there is no need for the one on the pinnacle to expand their presence nationally – not should it be their mission. Leveling the playing field downwards is only fueling a continuous slope towards the mediocrity that is quasi omnipresent in all facets of our K-16 education.

Lastly, it would be a mistake to think that competitive students are unable to land at a school that match their qualifications. They might not always land at their first choice, but usually end up at a school that is “slotting” them correctly.

The current system works as intended, and do so at the bottom just as well as the top. Our educational system delivers the workers that our industry requires … and most of those just happen to be graduates from no-name university with few marketable skills.

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danstearns . “But if you’re fortunate enough to attend some of the Ivies or top LACs, that notion is alive and well.” There lies the rub. Few are this “fortunate,” yet parents and students without the requisites waste their time applying to the Ivies and elite schools and pushing their acceptance rates lower and lower year after year. It’s hard for many to remember but before the Common app, Ivies like Penn had 30-40% acceptance rates! . But as I have argued over and over again, it’s not the end of the world for them. Many other good schools exist where you can contemplate your navel for four years and learn philosophy and Africana Studies, but parents need to look at these schools with a cold eye and scrutinize their placement numbers and alumni network. A school that comes to mind where a kid can possibly major in something impractical and which is not as competitive as the Ivies is Colgate. Acceptance rates are from 20 to 26%, I believe. THey have a huge endowment and have good financial aid. It’s a beautiful campus with bright kids, too. THey rank very high. Lots of connections to get liberal arts majors on to Wall Street, too. I would love to hear some other examples from folks reading this blog.

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The problem is that relying on such advertised numbers is a fool’s errand. In the end, it is all about the individual, his or her objectives and performance and not about the school’s performance.

Consider how the student who spent four years in “navel” studies might parlay that into an admission at a prestigious law school? How the student who “wasted” time in African studies lands a job at the World Bank or Unesco in Paris on the strength of a different view of the world? Or a job at the Gates Foundation?

And then compare such results with the hordes of students who did not look at their own navel as much as the bottom of their beer bottles and graduated with one of 'em lite degrees defined grossly as a “business degree” with a sprinkling of remedial English and lite accounting or marketing classes?

The bottom line is that you will find workers with a vast range of degrees and majors and a wide range of verifiable skills. And on top of that, there are students who graduate on the top of their class at that mediocre school and exactly 50 percent of the HYPS students who graduate in the bottom half of their class. There are incredibly smart people --who will rise to the top in the career-- with "navel degrees and “dumb as rocks” students who will graduate with a worthless degree in entrepreneurship – whatever that is!

The marketplace will provide the yardstick.

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@xiggi‌:

The market has spoken - finance is out, technology & entrepreneurship is in.

Call it the “Stanford Effect” - a general trend accelerated by the market collapse.

Harvard is reacting by building a new innovation center, expanding engineering and moving it across the river near the B-school and new innovation center. Wharton is in decline.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304795804579099522033254380

“dumb as rocks” would be an apt description of the Harvard students who don’t know which side of the river they are on. (see comments section of following article). :slight_smile:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/2/6/seas-move-allston-campus/?page=2

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I wouldn’t quite close the coffin on business yet. Yale is making a huge investment in its School of Management (B-School), and recently opened its new massive building.

They also are trying to develop an entrepreneurial high tech sector in New Haven, but having troubles. Once a startup company gets big enough it leaves for Boston, etc. needing a bigger pool of high tech types for staffing.

Bio-tech is doing better. Not only is it the largest and most significant medical center and med school between Boston and NYC, it purchased the huge Bayer facility in West Haven, and is establishing it as a whole new bio research campus.

100

Perhaps, but the question remains about how well the schools are adapting to deliver the new crop of workers. And to the heart of that debate is what defines “entrepreneurship” and how much it departs from the standard business education that consists of sprinkles of finance, marketing, and basic legal environment? Do students really find many benefits from a lite education at a school known more for its football than labs or, alternatively, at a school that conflates internship with a reduced class time and a lesser investment in faculty.

In the end, perhaps the debate is all about the “Why even go to college” as the Stanford Effect might reward the kid who learned to code in high school, took a few CS courses at a mediocre college, and jumped from one startup to another for a few years and became a hot commodity at the tender age of 21. I know because I have hired my share of such creatures.

In the meantime, you also have to look at the pyramid of most companies. Where do the coders go after ten years, and where do the Harvard or GBS MBAs go? The answer might surprise you … even in the heart of Silicon Valley. In the end, that degree from a prestigious school might pay dividends. People do find out that entrepreneurship is not always the same as management, and that the skills of a free and creative spirit does not transfer well to a world where results are measured in dollars and cents. In the end, people with a SOLID education will always have better chances to survive market changes. There are just a few steps between a job at a startup and one at the local Starbucks.