Money vs opportunities

College Majors Music Major
1

I have a question/comment for some of the veteran parents. Maybe there will be some relevance to others too while making the first college/financial decision…it won’t be your last.

My D says you only really continue for the DMA if you are interested in academics (teaching or research). This is for voice so maybe it’s different for other instruments - and I think this discussion has been covered here briefly before. I do know students who have done PDs or ADs but on full rides (and I assume that includes some living expenses - and these students were exceptionally talented and had often worked professionally).

However I know some schools are offering tuition coverage/discounts for DMA studies as a way of continuing to learn and perform…with the idea that you may or may not finish the DMA but you continue to get experience…until you land somewhere…presumably a young artist program. Thankfully my D has no interest in this.

I feel suspect about these “opportunities”. Frankly I get tired of the idea that my D should “pay to sing”…for how long!!! Even if she were only paying living expenses at a school, it’s not really work. I find it slightly disingenuous to keep students in school making no money in such a tough field…as if more schooling is the issue of no acceptance to a YAP program. Maybe more time and training with a teacher…but more school? I’m a skeptic.

In undergrad, my D did do 2 pay to sing festivals (they both had some money/opportunities/connections that made it worthwhile imo). Still for grad school, she has only done paid to sing (meaning she did sit out her year before grad school as she didn’t get an offer). I know there are connections/benefits etc still I think there’s a point where money needs to be made…and I hit it after undergrad…others may vary based on philosophy or funds available.

My D did not try for a young artist program last fall wanting to wait a year. But what has been nice is she is getting paid city/regional gigs consistently now (she also does some drama). She understands she has to get paid so she hasn’t tried for the non-paid ones.

So what’s the issue? Have other parents experienced this pull to keep paying?!?! My D mentions friends (and I don’t want this to be gossipy - what people do with their money is their business - still it does have an impact on me and that’s what I’m focusing on) that are completely supported by their parents doing more “studies” and more “pay to sing” and living abroad not working since they don’t have work visa - just singing with a teacher. So fine.

But does it ever end…the idea if you just spend a little (meaning a lot) more money on some well-known program or longer studies…her dreams will come true? I’m following the philosophy that getting a paid role will lead to another paid role (since I’m out of money).

2

I think I get what you are talking about, and it is known as figuring out the point of no return, so to speak. There are kids who will extend grad education to “further their skills”, when quite frankly it is more like they are going on to MM then DMA programs or artist diplomas and the like to extend their time in school, to avoid going out in the ‘real world’, and it usually indicates IME kids who were behind the curve in UG and are trying to make up for lost time, or are hoping if they go on it will make them good enough to 'make it. There are kids going for a DMA who are doing it because it does have academic components to it, and they could be wangling down the road to teach. There also are top notch performers who use the MM, AD and DMA to refine their skills further, and usually they can end up with a free ride or near free ride, so yes, it can be ‘legitimate’ extension.

The reality is that many grad programs admit kids who will pay full or near full tuition and such to be in the program, and this helps subsidize the ones who get the free or near free rides. This became apparent to my S as he auditions for grad schools, and he saw kids in the MM program who quite honestly he was surprised they got in, the kids he knew in the programs who got full rides on the other hand were up there. Some of the major conservatories (whose names I won’t mention) more and more have shifted to the paying model, there are a relatively few who get great packages (and probably deserve it), and many of the kids in the grad programs are paying a lot that help subsidize the rest, the playing level of the ‘other’ students varies, but there is no doubt in my mind it is ‘pay to play’ or ‘play to sing’.

Given how many grad programs are out there, I am not the least bit surprised if there is a lot of pay to play, the schools have to fill spots and if people are willing to pay, well, it works for the school. It doesn’t necessarily mean that someone who doesn’t get a good package is doomed to fail,but if you get into a grad school and are basically paying full freight it means either the school has no endowment they can use even if you are great/really good, the school only supports a tiny number of top people and even superior students are targeted to pay a lot or most of the cost, or the person will be allowed to go there, but is basically there to fill space and to pay their full tuition. I think some of the answers will come if the person applies to a number of programs, auditions, if someone consistently gets ‘pay to play’, it may be time IMO to shift focus. And before it sounds like I am heartless or that I am a cold hearted realist, I am not, my son is in the process of auditioning for grad programs, and as much of a struggle financially it is (has been) to pay in UG, I would be willing to sacrifice more because I believe in him, but he also is very much a realist and I think the results of what he sees financially will be telling about his future path, how he wants to go (he is applying both in performance and theory PHd programs), and though he has applied to some programs who tend to give little merit aid except for those in the stratosphere, he doesn’t really want to go there unless he gets significant aid.

3

@musicprnt Thank for reading my “stream of consciousness” and taking the time to reply. Your response made me realize that I’m doing the final accounting so to speak (something @GoForth may appreciate).

It also reminded me of a wise money manager who used to say the “would ofs, could ofs, should ofs of life” are always present and can distract you from your financial plan if you aren’t careful. There are a lot of shiny, expensive objects throughout the college years that need to be looked at with a cold, realistic eye…and I don’t think that makes you a “cold” parent.

So after 6 years, I feel good about with how the financial plan turned out (WHEN I ignore the distractions). She has no debt. Got a good education. And it appears with a mixture of her survival job and the performance gigs she has lined up into the fall (hope that continues), she should be able to support herself (with a little help on occasion I suspect).

Good luck on the grad school front. My D too had very specifics goals for grad school (or she wouldn’t go). And those goals were more stringent than mine…so I guess they do know what they are doing by grad school.

4

I wrote a response because this issue is so complicated, then deleted it, trying again. Mainly just want to say I can relate.

I suppose this might sound backwards, but I have been more willing to pay for the “shiny objects” the further they get in their fields, rather than the other way around. To put it another way, we waited for a strong wave, to surf : )

PM’ing you.

5

@bridgenail - yes, the final accounting (as soon as one or more offers exists).

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@compmom:
That is a strategy, too, wait and see if the kid shows the committment and talent, so rather than paying for the expensive school in UG, perhaps paying in grad school, and so forth. There is no one path in all this, like the auditioning process and the admissions process, there is no science to it, it is all subjective. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a point of no return, a place to stop throwing good money after bad so to speak, but with most kids to be honest they tend to figure that out for themselves, those who don’t tend to be an exception.A friend of mine went to Indiana, he was a performance major, and a year or so in, he realized he wasn’t going to make it, he wasn’t getting into the top level groups, and realized he didn’t have what it took, so he concentrated on his other degree.

7

If a strong wave appears in the future, I’ll be sure to have an open mind. For now, it’s work and perform.

And as said above, I think the kids do know. My D has no questions…it’s just me making sure I have looked under every rock.

8

Ok…embarrassing…I meant would haves/could haves/should haves…and my mother was an English teacher…I can feel her scowl…

9

Let’s be frank here, singers get the short end of the stick. They pay to audition, they pay to sing and girls have it worse than the guys because they quite often pay MORE. Yes folks, you heard me right, the female will very often pay more than the males to sing in the very same program, and yes, in the very same OPERA, and the programs get away with these practices because they are privately run and they can do it.
Singers pay a fee to audition for everything; sometimes they pay an additional fee to the accompanist (which I have no problem with at all if the person playing is prepared, which usually they are but as some will tell you, that’s not always the case). Then they pay for the program itself, and for a summer program of from 2-6 weeks that can run from 2-8 thousand dollars (or more!) and that does not include transportation, housing or (most often) meals, so add that money in too, plus incidentals !! You’ll need a membership to YAP Tracker- $55/yr- to learn about and keep track of all of those auditions and opportunities and to be able to submit your applications, and don’t forget about the fees for doing your recordings, and those mount up because you have to pay your accompanist and whomever is doing the actual recording and editing for you.

Singers come into the game later than their instrumentalist friends but they and their parents certainly catch up in the financial outlay game quickly. My D has friends whose parents are still paying their rent/utilities/grocery/lesson bills for them and these “kids” are pushing 30! Trust me when I say that none of that bunch will ever be singing in an “A-level opera house or even a B” because they have no work ethic. The ones who are doing the best are those who have been working day jobs and paying for their own lessons, maybe doing a competition if they could afford it, but taking paying gigs that help their voices and make useful contacts for their careers.

@bridgenail - Your D is doing fine and she knows what rocks to turn over! New DMAs right now are lucky if they can find a part time position and supplement the pay with government benefits, which is so very sad and not the direction we want to be going for sure. It hurts my D, because she’s been looking into it too, wanting a dual performing/musicology degree, but knows that she can’t afford to give up her salary for the uncertainty that study brings right now, especially since we seem to be facing draconian cuts in arts funding. Her cats are used to regular meals!

10

Good post, Mezzo’sMama. It’s sobering to get a dose of reality.

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It is similar for dancers. One of mine left dance entirely in fact.

However, for some artists/musicians/dancers/scholars the value of the further education is the reason to continue. And even at the doctoral level, I think working a day job can still sometimes take away from long term prospects…in some cases and in some fields.

12

Thanks Mezzo’sMama…you expressed perfectly the dilemma…and the costs for pay to sings…I’m not talking $1000 or even $2000…I’m talking $8000 and during that 2-3 months no ability to make income…Yikes! However we have passed through that “stage of temptation” without biting the apple.

And supporting kids until they are 30! I do see some of that and needed someone to say DON’T DO IT - lol - still I hadn’t planned too.

In looking at her budget for next year, it’s better than I anticipated. BUT I have money set aside for audition expenses and lessons to help her for 2 years. Frankly their costs are a budget buster! This assistance was a part of the deal for grad school. In looking at grad schools we had a set amount of money. In all cases, the money would have be GONE by the end of grad school. However if she chose the one grad school that wasn’t as “fancy” and was offering nearly full tuition, there would be money left. It’s also worked well since it is in the city and she has often been referred for gigs and has built a network.

But yes…she’s seems realistic about it all, wants to be self-supporting and I do follow her lead. She skipped Young Artist Program auditions this year just feeling she wasn’t ready and the money would be better spent next fall.

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@Mezzo’sMama :
I am glad you chimed in, vocal is a very different world than instrumental music, and what you write about is sobering, to say the least. Vocal performance is a weird beast, in some ways because vocalists mature later it seems like you don’t pay for it as much ‘up front’, as let’s say violin students who start at 4 or 5, and soon escalate into real money when you add in private teachers, pre college programs, summer festivals, etc…by 30 because of that most instrumentalists will know when it is time to keep going or stop (not all, obviously)…

The arts are tough, and only getting tougher, it doesn’t exactly look like we are heading into a golden age of culture, that is for sure.

14

Your children are quite a lot further down the road than my D (freshman, VP major). In hindsight, is there anything they “would have could have of should have” done differently to help them be more financially independent by college graduation (outside of taking a double major in engineering :wink: )?

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I personally think that interning (even unpaid) can help students gain job skills like donor management, fundraising, website design, brochure writing etc. etc. Ditto summer jobs though of course time is taken up with summer programs and during the year, with lessons, practice and performance along with classes, there isn’t a whole lot of time. I don’t know enough about VP to say.

And it IS okay to get a degree in music, whether BA or BM, college or conservatory, and go on to work in another field entirely. VP majors, like all bachelors degree-holders can go to grad school in something else, go to med or law or nursing school, or enter the job market in many different types of jobs. I say that because, again, and I didn’t express it well before, there is inherent value in the studies regardless of outcome.

16

D is 100% committed to performance, and we will support her (financially and emotionally) through her undergraduate years. After that, we will do what we can, IF we can, but she isn’t an only child and knows resources are shared. She just told us she is considering adding an Arts Management minor, which is apparently relatively easy to configure given her general requisites outside music. I thought it sounded practical without straying too far from her primary interest. At least, it might be a possible route to a “day job”!

17

Arts management is the field in which my kids interned (see above). It is a toss up whether spending time volunteering, interning or working would be more helpful than the arts management minor. (I forgot grant-writing). Also organizing concerts or a student-run series on campus can be helpful in gaining experience in finding funding, writing contracts and working with professional organizations.

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You have to intern as part of the minor requirement. I suspect it’s unpaid and a way for the department to get free labor for campus programming (I’m just a little cynical). :wink:

19

At the U of Mich audition I went to, a parent did ask, in the Jazz Studies group meeting, what is the job placement rate. Well, aside from some tip-toeing around the question, as you can imagine, the answerer mentioned that one student went on to get a job of something like marketing director at Clorox - applicant saying to the interviewer, “I know how to read an audience and give them what they want.” Is that a placement? So, the idea was that the graduates are not jobless so much, but that there is not a jazz orchestra waiting to sign them on.

20

We knew the risk going in…here is how I have dealt with it…some may differ which is fine…

4 year college degree at a recognizable school - hey its a bachelors degree and that’s all you need for many entry level jobs. My D was never going to be an accountant or doctor. My D has plenty of friends with BAs in entry level jobs making their way. So seeing quite a few of her friends work through first jobs gives me faith my D could do that in the next few years if needed.

The benefits of being multi-talented (and disciplined with a work ethic) - if you have a Freshman showing up to all classes, getting good grades, engaging with teachers, trying new opportunities (successful or not) and living in a pig sty, your kid is probably going to do OK. Do not underestimate these skills. And some of the kids I see do the best are multi-talented and just busy. They also are making things happen for themselves…and yes that does include auditioning for pay to sings or doing student directed shows (and assisting with them administratively) or putting together a jazz band and trying to find gigs. And these skills translate to any occupation…so again good prep for the real world.

The sorting hat - the students will begin to sort themselves which can be the first real reality check after entering school. Most kids do start to realize around Junior year where they stand. Competitions and pay to sings do help students meet other students and get an idea of where they stand. Also teachers may start to re-direct students. So my D came up with benchmarks to achieve for grad school as she realized it wouldn’t be an easy shot to the opera stage. She wanted to be in a city with an opera company for the reasons below.

Being in a city where she can work - the transition after grad school seems easier since she has a survival job she likes and an artistic network - meaning she can work and support herself (I think - lol) right out of school. There’s no move and period of anxiety and cash layout with little coming in. She also has teachers and a coach at the opera company who will be working with her next year.

And…I told my D not to be a waitress (which she did anyway one summer)…the pay is good…but I was hoping she could find a job in a business environment so the skills would translate more easily. I didn’t want her to be a cliche - waitress/artist. The money is less at her current job but the experience is better. She didn’t like waitressing anyway.

My D will continue for a couple more years. She has specific goals. She’s organized, hard working and realistic. But she’s also determined to support herself. She has a lot of pride and I think will make the right calls at the right time. If it doesn’t work…I think she would be a great sales person…and there you can make money and still do art.