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But I do want him to be happy and he sees so many kids from his high school go on to the ivies, MIT etc and the top LACs that he has a narrowed perception of just how rare it is to go to these type schools. ...
I think a huge part of the dilemma is our feeling guilt if we make him base his decision on our finances due to his having siblings. If he was an only child, we'd let him choose without considering the money.
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Sewbusy... please read what you said. While I am sure that it honestly reflects your feelings, think about how it would sound if you substituted the sentence "so many kids from his high school drive luxury cars", and were feeling angst-ridden because the best you could do for your son was to pass on one of those old cars your family drives. Your true values are reflected in the sacrifices you have made over the years with your modest lifestyle. What "guilt"? If your son was a little boy insisting on having all the cookies for himself, you wouldn't feel guilty when you told him that must share equally among his siblings -- you have spent your life exemplifying the values you hold of respecting the needs of all family members.</p>
<p>Yes, it hurts when we see other families able to give more to their kids, and that certainly is one choice you make (early on) with a large family. But that simply is a given -- something that should have been obvious to your son all along. </p>
<p>The only mistake that has been made is that these issues may not have been aired fully at the beginning -- your son will of course be disappointed if he is learning for the first time that you simply can't afford what he wants. But you owe it to him to be honest -- since you can't in fairness simply pull out the rug completely, I would suggest that you sit down with him once all the acceptances are in and look at the costs. Tell him what you reasonably can pay for -- and by reasonable I don't mean by mortgaging everything you have and sacrificing it all for him on the assumption that the younger girls won't have such high aspirations. There is one pie and 4 kids and 2 parents who aren't getting any younger -- so you have to apportion shares appropriately and responsibly. What you can't do must be on your son's shoulders -- if he can figure out a way to make it work, that's fine. If not -- then he will begin to make reasonable choices as soon as he understands that he is sharing the burden. </p>
<p>My daughter has been accepted into her dream school and is terrified that the financial aid will not be enough. I sat her down and started talking about her plans for the summer -- she had been hoping to go to Europe with a friend, and I told her that I think that if she really wants her top choice she ought to be thinking about a summer job. She was suprisingly reasonable. Europe is off if she elects dream school - no question about it. </p>
<p>You are not cheating your son by treating him like an adult and expecting him to make responsible decisions based on an understanding that he shares in the burden of whatever choice he makes -- on the contrary, you are giving him a lesson more valuable than that offered at any Ivy. (But you know that).</p>
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UVA is an excellent school but it is not an ivy.
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<p>No, very possibly it is better than an Ivy (another Ivy parent).</p>
<p>Ask Jesse jackson's son, who presumably could have gone wherever he really wanted, doncha think?</p>
<p>Sorry, Sewbusy, to hijack your thread.
Perhaps the FA packages will clarify everthing for your family. W&M is a very fine school, and individual departments there may be better than individual departments at any of his other choices. Overall, the experience should be comparable to the other schools listed, especially in the rareified atmosphere of a special honors program (which is what I am assuming the Monroe is).</p>
<p>I don't think you should feel guilty for taking the money, or explaining it to your son.</p>
<p>I echo Cangel's advice not to make sweeping assumptions about the quality of the schools. Guess where the best program in my field of physics is? University of Arizona, Tucson.</p>
<p>Sorry, I guess I didn't get my real issue of confusion across very well. I really appreciate all of the comments. We have told all of our kids that we will do what we can financially, but that they will work summers and pay for a part of their tuition over and above the state school rates. Our concern was more with the other kids down the line and how we would come up with 16 years worth of payments over the next nine years. But if the colleges really do adjust financial aid so that our total burden won't be a whole lot greater per year with three in than it will be with just one, that is a huge help.
Also, if grad school is generous with their financial aid, that is super news. I had thought just the opposite, ie that since grad students are all considered independent and most are pretty broke by that point, that the kids were up to their ears in debt. We did tell our son that if he chooses a pricier school that we will not have anything to offer him for grad school, whereas with some of the other schools we would have an easier time helping him out.
Just trying to help him determine if a full-price education is really worth the financial sacrifices that the whole family will incur, including him. If the decision were up to me, I would sign the W&M acceptance forms, hands down. But then again, it's not my college experience, it's his.
Thanks again for all of the advice and thought provoking comments. </p>
<p>Calmom- I'm with you on the Europe trip. Son desperately wanted to go on his school's summer trip to Italy (actually a semester credit course). We told him he had to work to pay for half of the trip plus all souveniers. He worked during school and made the money because it was important to him. I think he appreciated the experience all the more for it, but I'm just not sure at this maturity level in life that they truly understand what real debt is like, it's just a nebulous thing to them right now.</p>
<p>Sewbusy - just make sure you talk to the financial aid office of choice #1 before your son commits to anything. You want to make sure that you have a correct understanding of the situation.</p>
<p>As for grad school, PhD and many Master's programs often pay the full way, especially at the top and therefore richer schools, but medical schools and business schools generally do not give full rides.</p>
<p>I don't think it is at all wrong to consider the educational needs of the other children. I'm sure that colleges will reduce EFC, but perhaps not to the extent that you would want. This is something to ask the financial aid officers now.</p>
<p>As for grad schools, many Ph.D. programs underwrite most of all of a student's education, but not all do, I believe. Students have to scramble for outside fellowships and their luck depends partially on what the fellowships are earmarked for. Professional schools do not provide subsidies, but students do earn a great deal more. A starting lawyer at a major NYC firm earns $140k plus bonus, I was recently told.</p>
<p>To get back to W&M, it has an excellent reputation and your son would get a first-class education there. There are safeties and safeties. It was a safety for your son because of his in-state status, not because it is easy to get in, or provides an inferior education. As someone said, OOS applicants should not consider UVA or W&M a safety. </p>
<p>I can understand your son's wish to spread his wings further; he could consider doing a semester or year abroad. That would be more enriching than going to a more expensive stateside university.</p>
<p>"W & M is less rarefied than what I imagine your son would find at an Ivy or Swat/Amherst, but not to such an extent that it would hold him back in any way, especially a kid who is learning Italian so he can read the original Dante!"</p>
<p>My d. is an Italian double major and could have gone to Swat/Amherst. You are aware, of course, that neither Swarthmore nor Amherst offers even introductory Italian, I hope.</p>
<p>Who says W&M is inferior for a student who wants to study Dante? Swarthmore and Amherst wouldn't be in the top 200, would they? W&M plus $150k vs. XXX? As I said, make sure you know what you are buying. (I don't think there is a LAC in the country that wouldn't be very much inferior to W&M plus $150k in educational opportunities - I actually don't think it would be even close - full disclosure: I went to "College #1".)</p>
<p>Calling financial aid office is an excellent idea. Maybe they can give me a guesstimate of how his siblings will affect future years.
Mini,
Good points. Yes, we are making him (and us) pour over and compare the courses offered in his various interests at the different schools (we requested course catalogs when we visited). He seems to think these school's consortiums will take care of their limited offerings; I don't feel the same way.
Marite,
I agree that W&M is not a safety for anyone, even in-staters. I think the way his gc presented it to him could have been better. I actually thought of it as a match. I'm really not sure that there are any "safety" schools in this bizarre process if safety means guaranteed admission.</p>
<p>When I instanced OOS applicants as not being able to view W&M as a safety, I meant to suggest that it is an excellent school which draws excellent applicants. For students in Cambridge, MA, Harvard is easier to get into than say Princeton or Stanford or Yale, or MIT which does not give a tip or hook to local students. Conversely, for students from New Haven, it may be easier to get into Yale than to Harvard. This says nothing about the quality of those schools. It is too bad that your son's GC gave the impression that W&M was a lesser school because it was closer to home, and thus easier for him to get into. I hope your son comes to realize that! I don't know if you would be saving $150k by having him attend W&M, but you would certainly save a bundle and he could do so much with it!</p>
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"W & M is less rarefied than what I imagine your son would find at an Ivy or Swat/Amherst, but not to such an extent that it would hold him back in any way, especially a kid who is learning Italian so he can read the original Dante!"
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Then mini said:
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... Who says W&M is inferior for a student who wants to study Dante?
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Oops. This won't be important to anyone but me :) , but I'd like to correct the impression I may have given that I think W&M is inferior in any way. I like to be a cheerleader for W&M on this board, because I think very highly of the institution, and not many CCers seem to pursue it. I mentioned Italian because the OP's son is already studying the language in order to read Dante in the original, and therefore seems to be one of those motivated students who'll make the most of the educational opportunities he finds wherever he enrolls.</p>
<p>What I meant to say (but didn't very clearly) is that the prevailing atmosphere at W & M might be marginally less ... I don't know, exalted? than at an Ivy or A/W/S, where it seems as if every student is a world-class something-or-other. No Ivy or equivalent LAC experience here - this is just a strong impression I've picked up on CC. I don't in the least mean to diminish the accomplishments of W&M students (my kid was one!). But since the OP wants the very best environment for her son, I meant to indicate that the difference between his peers at W&M and at an Ivy-level school would be very slight, and wouldn't diminish his experience.</p>
<p>As it happens, W & M doesn't offer a major in Italian, but does offer a minor. There are 20 courses offered this semester, including one taught in Italian on modern Italian theater, which I think sounds pretty cool. There's also one on Dante and the Medieval Tradition, a 3-credit course for which students who do the readings and discussion in Italian receive an extra credit.</p>
<p>" He seems to think these school's consortiums will take care of their limited offerings; I don't feel the same way."</p>
<p>Well, I can tell you - in depth - about Amherst and Italian. The students at Amherst try to take it at Smith (which has one of the best, and largest, programs in the country, among the LACs), but it is difficult. Smith has its own JYA program in Florence (my d. is going next year), but it is the only one in the country (as far as I know) that requires a full two years of intensive Italian, a course in stylistics, and a pledge that no English be used. And the number of places is limited to 25 (my d. says maybe 10-15 were turned away this year.) The result is that if you have any hopes of attending the program in your junior year, you have to begin as a first year, meaning there is very little room for Amherst students, especially men. (But, there still is some truth: he could take Italian at Mt. Holyoke or U-Mass.) Bryn Mawr does indeed have a reputable Italian department - I don't know if he'd run into the same problem there.</p>
<p>But that's almost beside the point. $150k could buy how many YEARS in Italy? (if that's where he thinks he is headed?) Or for that matter, something(s) else?</p>
<p>Agree with above. I personally think that W&M is probably one of the most underrated schools in the country, at least as far as general public perception. But I believe (and hope) grad schools, employers and the enlightened know better. It certainly got me a great job when I graduated; the companies all knew very well of it's tough academics and grade deflation.
Someone was kind enough to explain how EFC works with more than one in college, so that has helped clarify alot.
I'll return after May 1st to let all know how and why he/we made his decision.
Thanks all!</p>